Try this scenario (1 Viewer)

oldskyblue58 · May 21, 2013

possible solution maybe

CCFC Ltd who own the golden share in administration.....

because of administration the FL take the share away from CCFC Ltd

share now seperated from ccfc ltd

CCFC ltd come out of administration with ownership in hands of SISU/Arvo

FL then say well we have the share which company do you want it put back in to

SISU say well as CCFCH has been operating the trading during the administration (in fact in SISU's eyes always have) we would like it there

FL say can see your point, there you go

SISU say we dont need CCFC Ltd any more and either let ACL wind it up or do it themselves

Share in SISU's hand via CCFC H and lease at Ricoh gone

Contracts, share, registrations all back together

possible or plausible? just thoughts really

BrisbaneBronco · May 21, 2013

I would say probable, but what about fit and proper etc?

ccfcway · May 21, 2013

ACL then free to negotiate with other parties to use the Ricoh ?

Whats in that for SISU ?

Godiva · May 21, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
possible solution maybe

CCFC Ltd who own the golden share in administration.....

because of administration the FL take the share away from CCFC Ltd

share now seperated from ccfc ltd

CCFC ltd come out of administration with ownership in hands of SISU/Arvo

FL then say well we have the share which company do you want it put back in to

SISU say well as CCFCH has been operating the trading during the administration (in fact in SISU's eyes always have) we would like it there

FL say can see your point, there you go

SISU say we dont need CCFC Ltd any more and either let ACL wind it up or do it themselves

Share in SISU's hand via CCFC H and lease at Ricoh gone

Contracts, share, registrations all back together

possible or plausible? just thoughts really

Well, you know what I think, but let me ask you this:
When (if) the scenario you paint happens - How will ACL react?
Will they try to negotiate a new lease? Will they negotiate a sell of ACL to SBS&L? Or will they shut the curtains for the club and try to prove they can be profitable anyway?
How will the SHAREHOLDERS (not the management) at ACL react?

... and still to come: The court decision on sisu's claim that the bailout is illegal.

oldskyblue58 · May 21, 2013

fit and proper is a sham in my opinion.... self certification pretty much.

The club and its owners can point to all the good things they have been splashing across the papers etc for community projects, the fact they are funding the club, the fact club has never faltered etc etc My guess is the FL wouldnt look too closely in order to protect the integrity of their competition........ which amounts to not changing names on the fixtures and those fixtures being met for the season

BrisbaneBronco · May 21, 2013

You have PH1V who I guess is basically interested in the surrounding land. He buys a stake in ACL and forms AFC Coventry which starts at the bottom of the Football Pyramid playing at the Ricoh.

Godiva · May 21, 2013

BrisbaneBronco said:
You have PH1V who I guess is basically interested in the surrounding land. He buys a stake in ACL and forms AFC Coventry which starts at the bottom of the Football Pyramid playing at the Ricoh.

He will be gone the second sisu regain control of Limited.

WFC · May 21, 2013

Possible. Would put the FL in an interesting position of effectively being complicit in deliberately distressing a company which owns a football stadium run by a local authority and children's charity and ditching debt by one of it's member clubs.

Not to say they wouldn't do it but would in a very public way raise many questions about the integrity of the FL and football in general in the country and would almost certainly see the government follow through on their threat to get involved and bring in legislation.

oldskyblue58 · May 21, 2013

Godiva said:
Well, you know what I think, but let me ask you this:
When (if) the scenario you paint happens - How will ACL react?
Will they try to negotiate a new lease? Will they negotiate a sell of ACL to SBS&L? Or will they shut the curtains for the club and try to prove they can be profitable anyway?
How will the SHAREHOLDERS (not the management) at ACL react?

... and still to come: The court decision on sisu's claim that the bailout is illegal.

so to answer a series of questions with just two

what do you think the purpose of all these actions by SISU are? Can ACL fight that off?

oldskyblue58 · May 21, 2013

WFC said:
Possible. Would put the FL in an interesting position of effectively being complicit in deliberately distressing a company which owns a football stadium run by a local authority and children's charity and ditching debt by one of it's member clubs.

Not to say they wouldn't do it but would in a very public way raise many questions about the integrity of the FL and football in general in the country and would almost certainly see the government follow through on their threat to get involved and bring in legislation.

very fair points and i agree..................... wonder if the FL have thought that through ?

chiefdave · May 21, 2013

very probable. the route that removes any option of SISU dragging the league into court is the easy option. FL don't have any issue going forward, Appleton can basically give up on the whole mess and just liquidate the company, only losers (other than us lot of course) are ACL.

what happens next will be interesting. no two ways about it in that scenario ACL have lost the 'who will blink first' game. SISU have made it very clear they will up sticks and ground share until a new stadium is built (if you believe this stadium will ever actually happen doesn't really matter so long as SISU can persuade the league they have plans for it) so ACL either have to basically beg SISU to come back and give them what they want or will be left to prove that they don't actually need the football club to be a viable business.

Godiva · May 21, 2013

WFC said:
Possible. Would put the FL in an interesting position of effectively being complicit in deliberately distressing a company which owns a football stadium run by a local authority and children's charity and ditching debt by one of it's member clubs.

It's a private business operating as a management company. Who the owners are and what their core businesses are outside of ACL is totally irrelevant!
It's a business and there are risks. The losses (rent arrears) were not inflicted upon them in a criminal way. Immoral way maybe, but not illegal.

stupot07 · May 21, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
very fair points and i agree..................... wonder if the FL have thought that through ?

The football league are more interested in football debts, things like installment payments to Norwich for cody and PNE for barton, paying players wages, will come first, then HMRC then local debts. ACL will be way down on their list.

Godiva · May 21, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
so to answer a series of questions with just two

what do you think the purpose of all these actions by SISU are? Can ACL fight that off?

You can't answer questions with questions - leave the spinning to those directly involved in the fight

I think an outcome like you portrait will result in some serious operational reviews at ACL. It would mean that ACL lose their £600k plus their main tenant - and have only lawyer bills to show. If I was shareholder I would most certainly not be happy with that result.

But the shareholders at ACL are different from your usual shareholder. Half of them are politicians and the other half a family run charity. Who's to say how they will react?

WFC · May 21, 2013

If this happens then the very best outcome you will get is that Coventry has a very nice exhibition and conference centre and Coventry City FC end up as a club in the lower divisions playing in a 12,000 seater with a following of around 6,000 plus paying rent to a SISU company for the stadium battling to survive and get into the Championship against the odds as bigger clubs bob in and out of the division and without the infrastructure required to survive in the championship that long. See my previous comments about how to make money out of a football club without risking millions.

In other words you'll be likely to end up as Walsall mark II.

Personal opinion of course, based on our experiences.

Houdi · May 21, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
possible solution maybe

CCFC Ltd who own the golden share in administration.....

because of administration the FL take the share away from CCFC Ltd

share now seperated from ccfc ltd

CCFC ltd come out of administration with ownership in hands of SISU/Arvo

FL then say well we have the share which company do you want it put back in to

SISU say well as CCFCH has been operating the trading during the administration (in fact in SISU's eyes always have) we would like it there

FL say can see your point, there you go

SISU say we dont need CCFC Ltd any more and either let ACL wind it up or do it themselves

Share in SISU's hand via CCFC H and lease at Ricoh gone

Contracts, share, registrations all back together

possible or plausible? just thoughts really

All very plausible.But what then??
SISU would then be faced with playing at a new venue,in front of crowds of 1-2,000.Their revenue streams would collapse to virtually nothing and would probably barely cover their rent of the ground.Playing in front of a near deserted ground,would hardly be a selling point to a new players,even if the club could actually afford them.The current players performance levels would surely suffer in such a moribund enviroment.In effect SISU would have won the battle but lost the war.No company can possibly sustain huge losses on a relatively long term basis.

odysseus · May 21, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
possible solution maybe

CCFC Ltd who own the golden share in administration.....

because of administration the FL take the share away from CCFC Ltd

share now seperated from ccfc ltd

CCFC ltd come out of administration with ownership in hands of SISU/Arvo

FL then say well we have the share which company do you want it put back in to

SISU say well as CCFCH has been operating the trading during the administration (in fact in SISU's eyes always have) we would like it there

FL say can see your point, there you go

SISU say we dont need CCFC Ltd any more and either let ACL wind it up or do it themselves

Share in SISU's hand via CCFC H and lease at Ricoh gone

Contracts, share, registrations all back together

possible or plausible? just thoughts really

Maybe sisu will then put the club up for sale. Would then be on their terms and they would have been vindicated in court.

BrisbaneBronco · May 21, 2013

odysseus said:
Maybe sisu will then put the club up for sale. Would then be on their terms and they would have been vindicated in court.

But with no chance of selling

Sub · May 21, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
possible solution maybe

CCFC Ltd who own the golden share in administration.....

because of administration the FL take the share away from CCFC Ltd

share now seperated from ccfc ltd

CCFC ltd come out of administration with ownership in hands of SISU/Arvo

FL then say well we have the share which company do you want it put back in to

SISU say well as CCFCH has been operating the trading during the administration (in fact in SISU's eyes always have) we would like it there

FL say can see your point, there you go

SISU say we dont need CCFC Ltd any more and either let ACL wind it up or do it themselves

Share in SISU's hand via CCFC H and lease at Ricoh gone

Contracts, share, registrations all back together

possible or plausible? just thoughts really

OSB there are some questions that should be asked though if the golden share was in LTD why are the players contracts in holdings (is this legal) also how does this affect the academy team and with them playing at the higgs does that mean the insurance on these players and first team was invalid with the FL? and if holdings buy CCFC back are they doing a dodgy deal not so unlike ken bates did with leeds (aledgedly)

WFC · May 21, 2013

Godiva said:
It's a private business operating as a management company. Who the owners are and what their core businesses are outside of ACL is totally irrelevant!
It's a business and there are risks. The losses (rent arrears) were not inflicted upon them in a criminal way. Immoral way maybe, but not illegal.

Never said anything was illegal, didn't even make a comment on whether it's moral or not. The point is that it would not look good and the government has already threatened to step in because of these sort of things and that will be one of the things that the FL will bare in mind just the same as many industries like the media, financial services etc. Non of them want legislation binding them and so where such is threatened they will often take certain actions or put in place certain things to try and avoid it. It will influence their thinking.

As I said doesn't mean they won't do it, just that this is one of the things they will think about before deciding.

Sky Blue Dal · May 21, 2013

I honestly cannot see ACL begging SISU to come back if this did happened... if football is not played at the Ricoh.. they will put it for sale no matter what happens.

Saying no one will be interested in the Ricoh will be deluded.

I can comfortably say that many investors or construction companies would be interested and go out there way to get there hands on the complex and turn it into whatever they want to use it for.

ACL will easily get a better offering from another third party than what SISU can offer if it went into administration.

SISU know that but what they are doing at the moment are trying to exit this city in a blaze of glory by leaving a trial of destruction for the council to clean up which will in affect end up with us the tax payers, paying the price for of there greed.

That is my opinion.

hopesprings · May 21, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
possible solution maybe

CCFC Ltd who own the golden share in administration.....

because of administration the FL take the share away from CCFC Ltd

share now seperated from ccfc ltd

CCFC ltd come out of administration with ownership in hands of SISU/Arvo

FL then say well we have the share which company do you want it put back in to

SISU say well as CCFCH has been operating the trading during the administration (in fact in SISU's eyes always have) we would like it there

FL say can see your point, there you go

SISU say we dont need CCFC Ltd any more and either let ACL wind it up or do it themselves

Share in SISU's hand via CCFC H and lease at Ricoh gone

Contracts, share, registrations all back together

possible or plausible? just thoughts really

If that happens and no football/sport is played at the Ricoh What happens to the sponsorship? did Ricoh stipulate that it has to be a sports arena? How much did they pay and to whom did they pay? Would any money have to be repaid to Ricoh?

chiefdave · May 21, 2013

WFC said:
run by a local authority and children's charity

I have a question, would I be correct in thinking that ACL is setup as a regular profit making business? If so why was it not setup as a non profit, social enterprise or something similar for the good of the community? At the time the Ricoh was built social enterprises were very much the fashion with European funders and would most likley have opened up access to further grants.

dadgad · May 21, 2013

If this happened I could genuinely frsee the time when another club play their football at the RICOH.
This wouldn't necessarily be a phoenix club started by a Haskell but could be a club like Nuneaton moving in to inhabit the vacuum left by CCFC, r.i.p.!

Paxman II · May 21, 2013

yes a very plausible possibility and one which I pointed out several times but so many want to refuse to listen to.
There are many variations apart from this one but the most obvious and IF Joe Elliott's partners are seriously wanting to save the football club and keep it at the Ricoh is the one where I suggested they approach SISU and find out what it takes to see them fly the nest? IF they do not then I don't take Uncle Joe and Haskell's bid very seriously as it has nowhere to go without that approach.
Sorry but there must be a sense of reality here in all that's going on. The only way to see the wood through the trees is to keep thinking on a business level and cut out the sentimental attachment because it's our football club.

SkyblueBazza · May 21, 2013

BrisbaneBronco said:
I would say probable, but what about fit and proper etc?

As long as you are not currently detained under the Mental Health Act or in ITU...you are fit, & as long as you have a bank account in credit, are well-mannered, wear a tie & are sub-serviant to the FL - you are proper!

SkyblueBazza · May 21, 2013

BrisbaneBronco said:
You have PH1V who I guess is basically interested in the surrounding land. He buys a stake in ACL and forms AFC Coventry which starts at the bottom of the Football Pyramid playing at the Ricoh.

That's what a lot of oh-so-passionate anti-SISU people conveniently ignore...PH4 is (like SISU) almost certainly primarily interested in gaining access to the money-spinning land that may be part of a deal. The Club is a necessary but secondary distraction.

SkyblueBazza · May 21, 2013

WFC said:
Possible. Would put the FL in an interesting position of effectively being complicit in deliberately distressing a company which owns a football stadium run by a local authority and children's charity and ditching debt by one of it's member clubs.

Not to say they wouldn't do it but would in a very public way raise many questions about the integrity of the FL and football in general in the country and would almost certainly see the government follow through on their threat to get involved and bring in legislation.

I think we are in agreement that the FL are bricking-it over which way to go then at the moment, & are determined to keep their noses out, as best they can, until their own lawyers can do some sort of damage limitation.

Deleted member 5849 · May 21, 2013

dadgad said:
If this happened I could genuinely frsee the time when another club play their football at the RICOH.
This wouldn't necessarily be a phoenix club started by a Haskell but could be a club like Nuneaton moving in to inhabit the vacuum left by CCFC, r.i.p.!

Why do people keep deciding that we have the right to rip another club out of their surroundings, while complaining about that being done to us?

covmark · May 21, 2013

dadgad said:
If this happened I could genuinely frsee the time when another club play their football at the RICOH.
This wouldn't necessarily be a phoenix club started by a Haskell but could be a club like Nuneaton moving in to inhabit the vacuum left by CCFC, r.i.p.!

You would love that wouldn't you

WFC · May 21, 2013

SkyblueBazza said:
I think we are in agreement that the FL are bricking-it over which way to go then at the moment, & are determined to keep their noses out, as best they can, until their own lawyers can do some sort of damage limitation.

Yep, you can bet they have a lot of lawyers looking at it at the moment and will basically keep their mouths shut hoping a solution presents itself. Makes a takeover more difficult (not impossible) as not only will the Administrator's lawyers have to be happy and the consortium's lawyers have to be happy but also the FL's. Whenever lawyers are involved things take 3 times as long, when there's more than one involved a lot longer and when there's 3 lots an eternity.

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