Top 6 Budget? (2 Viewers)

chiefdave · Apr 22, 2016

The FA have released details of fees paid to agents and we come in at sixth on the list.

Obviously doesn't show that we have a top 6 budget but I would think the mount being paid in agents fees by various clubs would give an indication of relative budgets.

Details here:
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sp...news/revealed-how-much-coventry-city-11227992

Brylowes · Apr 22, 2016

chiefdave said:
The FA have released details of fees paid to agents and we come in at sixth on the list.

Obviously doesn't show that we have a top 6 budget but I would think the mount being paid in agents fees by various clubs would give an indication of relative budgets.

Details here:
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sp...news/revealed-how-much-coventry-city-11227992

Or we had to bring in more players than most other clubs,the more you deal
in the transfer market the more agents fees you will incur

johnwillomagic · Apr 23, 2016

We do have budget in top six of league undoubtedly Tm has had support this year. It gets on my wick that loads of erm deluded shall we say users say that we don't and have had a measly budget in comparison to other league one powerhouses such as burton and gillingham!

dongonzalos · Apr 23, 2016

SW stated that our budget was 8th-6th in this league.
If it was higher than that I am pretty certain he would Have told us as it positive for the owners. Cannot see any reason he would suggest it is lower than it actually is.
(Seems bizzare this statement by him just gets ignored, he said it whilst he was CEO)

dongonzalos · Apr 23, 2016

“From our Football League benchmark figure this year we’ll be between sixth and eighth in terms of spend on the playing squad."

If we finish 8th- 6th this year TM will have just done what's expected of him.
If the budget is the same next year and he finishes the same.
Then in my opinion SISU will need to look for a manager who can over achieve with his budget. Not one who just does as expected.

clint van damme · Apr 23, 2016

It's not just about budget though, it's also about strategy.

We need to rely on loans less and use that budget to build something more long term.

That would mean less money going to agents as Brylowes stated.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2016

dongonzalos said:
SW stated that our budget was 8th-6th in this league.
If it was higher than that I am pretty certain he would Have told us as it positive for the owners. Cannot see any reason he would suggest it is lower than it actually is.
(Seems bizzare this statement by him just gets ignored, he said it whilst he was CEO)

And what if the budget was £1,000 worse than the third? The manager cannot influence that?

What are you are effectively saying is that managers make no difference so we should never have employed Mowbray and his back room staff as they certainly will not have come cheap.

dongonzalos · Apr 23, 2016

Grendel said:
And what if the budget was £1,000 worse than the third? The manager cannot influence that?

What are you are effectively saying is that managers make no difference so we should never have employed Mowbray and his back room staff as they certainly will not have come cheap.

Think you should probably read what someone posts before you reply to them.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2016

dongonzalos said:
Think you should probably read what someone posts before you reply to them.

What the post you just edited you mean?

Brylowes · Apr 23, 2016

dongonzalos said:
Think you should probably read what someone posts before you reply to them.

Would much rather go into the summer with a 12th to 14th budget, but at the
same time have a settled squad and therefore only needing to improve the
first team in maybe a couple of areas. This would be far better for stability, while
at the same time with less players to bring in, you can use your budget to get
higher quality players to improve the team.

Sick Boy · Apr 23, 2016

Grendel said:
And what if the budget was £1,000 worse than the third? The manager cannot influence that?

What are you are effectively saying is that managers make no difference so we should never have employed Mowbray and his back room staff as they certainly will not have come cheap.

Exactly. Whenever it suits this forum, we are told that managers make zero difference. We were told the same about Thorn and now Mowbray; surely then it makes more sense to stop employing a manger and pump the money into the playing side?

Brylowes · Apr 23, 2016

Sick Boy said:
Exactly. Whenever it suits this forum, we are told that managers make zero difference. We were told the same about Thorn and now Mowbray; surely then it makes more sense to stop employing a manger and pump the money into the playing side?

Anyone who thinks the manager isn't the most important person at the club
is to ( quote 'one of the forum's favourite words' ) deluded.

dongonzalos · Apr 23, 2016

Grendel said:
What the post you just edited you mean?

Yes I changed a typo one letter
(predictive text) an i to an o
I take you completely misunderstood my post and replied irrelevantly due to that typo?
I understand now easy mistake to make

Grendel · Apr 23, 2016

dongonzalos said:
Yes I changed a typo one letter
(predictive text) an i to an o
I take you completely misunderstood my post and replied irrelevantly due to that typo?
I understand now easy mistake to make

I think you should read the post I replied to.

Anyway your rigid fixation on budgets is - as someone has pointed out - delusional.

Hobo · Apr 23, 2016

johnwillomagic said:
We do have budget in top six of league undoubtedly Tm has had support this year. It gets on my wick that loads of erm deluded shall we say users say that we don't and have had a measly budget in comparison to other league one powerhouses such as burton and gillingham!

Those teams have built their squad over several seasons so not necessarily a simple direct comparison.

dongonzalos · Apr 23, 2016

Brylowes said:
Anyone who thinks the manager isn't the most important person at the club
is to ( quote 'one of the forum's favourite words' ) deluded.

Unfortunately that was never posted
Grendel just read what he wanted to read (that wasn't written)
Who has said the manager isn't important.
As said before if TM finishes 8th-6th he has just done what is expected nothing more.
If he does that again next season. SISU will need to find a manager who can over achieve with his budget.
As I don't think they are going to give him a top two budget

Grendel · Apr 23, 2016

dongonzalos said:
Unfortunately that was never posted
Grendel just read what he wanted to read (that wasn't written)
Who has said the manager isn't important.
As said before if TM finishes 8th-6th he has just done what is expected nothing more.
If he does that again next season. SISU will need to find a manager who can over achieve with his budget.
As I don't think they are going to give him a top two budget

What if the budget of the 3rd highest team is £1,000 more than ours?

italiahorse · Apr 23, 2016

dongonzalos said:
“From our Football League benchmark figure this year we’ll be between sixth and eighth in terms of spend on the playing squad."

If we finish 8th- 6th this year TM will have just done what's expected of him.
If the budget is the same next year and he finishes the same.
Then in my opinion SISU will need to look for a manager who can over achieve with his budget. Not one who just does as expected.

If you give a manager the 8th place budget that is where you plan to finish.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2016

italiahorse said:
If you give a manager the 8th place budget that is where you plan to finish.

Bollocks

italiahorse · Apr 23, 2016

Grendel said:
Bollocks

Explanation of why you expect a top 6 finish on a 8th place budget ?

Jack Griffin · Apr 23, 2016

chiefdave said:
The FA have released details of fees paid to agents and we come in at sixth on the list.

Obviously doesn't show that we have a top 6 budget but I would think the mount being paid in agents fees by various clubs would give an indication of relative budgets.

Details here:
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sp...news/revealed-how-much-coventry-city-11227992

The FA disclosure document from which the story was written
http://www.thefa.com/~/media/files/...ns-1-april-2015-to-1-february-2016.ashx?la=en

Brylowes · Apr 23, 2016

italiahorse said:
If you give a manager the 8th place budget that is where you plan to finish.

If every team started at the same point that might be true, but we don't start at the same point.
I don't know what Burtons or Walsalls budgets were, but I would think they were
lower than ours, they only had to add a few players to complement an already
settled squad .
If our club were an economy you would probably describe it as Boom & Bust.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2016

italiahorse said:
Explanation of why you expect a top 6 finish on a 8th place budget ?

Several reasons but why say 8th when the quite apparently said it could be a top 6 budget?

Suits your agenda?

italiahorse · Apr 23, 2016

Brylowes said:
If every team started at the same point that might be true, but we don't start at the same point.
I don't know what Burtons or Walsalls budgets were, but I would think they were
lower than ours, they only had to add a few players to complement an already
settled squad .
If our club were an economy you would probably describe it as Boom & Bust.

Surely though the budget reflects the players in the squad ?

If I was the manager setting my goals for the season I would object to being given an 8th place budget and expected to achieve a top 6 position.

Grendel · Apr 23, 2016

italiahorse said:
Surely though the budget reflects the players in the squad ?

If I was the manager setting my goals for the season I would object to being given an 8th place budget and expected to achieve a top 6 position.

Do you have any evidence we had an 8th budget?

Do you have any evidence as to he actual gap in budget from us to the team in third place?

Do you have any evidence these clubs with allegedly bigger budgets actually spent it?

Did we not overspend our budget?

Why as the club is self sustaining and the owners do not take money out is the budget smaller than other? Nothing to do with ground ownership surely?

chiefdave · Apr 23, 2016

italiahorse said:
Explanation of why you expect a top 6 finish on a 8th place budget ?

So you believe that in every division the final league table perfectly mirrors the teams ranking by budget?

skybluetony176 · Apr 23, 2016

Grendel said:
Do you have any evidence we had an 8th budget?

Do you have any evidence as to he actual gap in budget from us to the team in third place?

Do you have any evidence these clubs with allegedly bigger budgets actually spent it?

Did we not overspend our budget?

Why as the club is self sustaining and the owners do not take money out is the budget smaller than other? Nothing to do with ground ownership surely?

To be fair wasn't SW quoted as saying we have a top 6-8 budget? That would obviously be an estimate but given the history of estimates from the people running our club I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the actual figure be at the bottom end of that estimate. Or even lower. Not exactly known for getting figures right are they? This seasons required attendances for one. They aren't known for their accuracy are they? And it's only ever in the wrong direction.

Brylowes · Apr 23, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
To be fair wasn't SW quoted as saying we have a top 6-8 budget? That would obviously be an estimate but given the history of estimates from the people running our club I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the actual figure be at the bottom end of that estimate. Or even lower. Not exactly known for getting figures right are they? This seasons required attendances for one. They aren't known for their accuracy are they? And it's only ever in the wrong direction.

Yeah, think our budget started at 11,000 but was re- calculated to 14,000 . :facepalm:

Nick · Apr 23, 2016

Brylowes said:
Yeah, think our budget started at 11,000 but was re- calculated to 14,000 . :facepalm:

You do realise that wasn't our budget don't you?

Brylowes · Apr 23, 2016

Nick said:
You do realise that wasn't our budget don't you?

No. I thought the crowd was 6th to 8th and the budget was 11,000 to 14,000 .

italiahorse · Apr 23, 2016

Grendel said:
Do you have any evidence we had an 8th budget?

Do you have any evidence as to he actual gap in budget from us to the team in third place?

Do you have any evidence these clubs with allegedly bigger budgets actually spent it?

Did we not overspend our budget?

Why as the club is self sustaining and the owners do not take money out is the budget smaller than other? Nothing to do with ground ownership surely?

It's other people saying it.
All I'm saying is that if you are allocated an 8th placed budget by your financiers then that is where your financiers should expect you to finish.
The post I was answering too said we should get a manager that can achieve more than what was being financed.

chiefdave · Apr 23, 2016

italiahorse said:
All I'm saying is that if you are allocated an 8th placed budget by your financiers then that is where your financiers should expect you to finish.

So no team has ever finished higher than their position on the table of budgets?

shmmeee · Apr 23, 2016

From this FT article about research into football: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/f340caae-47cd-11e1-b646-00144feabdc0.html

Generally speaking, the people who matter most in football aren’t managers but players. The market in footballers, unlike the market in managers, is frighteningly efficient. It’s easy to judge players, because they do their jobs in public, sometimes in front of millions of judges. In Soccernomics, Szymanski showed that players largely earn what they are worth, judged by their contribution to their teams’ performance. He found that the size of each English club’s wage bill (taking data from 1978 to 2010) largely explained where the club finished in the league. The club that paid the highest wages typically came top; the club that paid least came last. The correlation between players’ wages and league position was about 90 per cent, if you took each club’s average over about 15 years. As Sturrock says, “Money talks, and money decides where you finish up in the leagues.”

If players’ wages determine results, it follows that everything else – including the manager – is just noise. Most managers are not very relevant. In the long run, they will achieve almost exactly the league positions that their players’ wages would predict.
Still, there is an important caveat. Players’ wages don’t explain everything – merely almost everything at most clubs. That leaves room for a few good managers to make a difference

Thought it was relevant to the debate.

If you read the full article it basically says wage bill is by far the most important factor, but a great manager can have some effect. However there are very few great managers.

Nick · Apr 23, 2016

Surely there must be a few great managers in League One who are higher than their budget and we must have a bad one!

shmmeee · Apr 23, 2016

Nick said:
Surely there must be a few great managers in League One who are higher than their budget and we must have a bad one!

The other point from that data that's important is its a 15 year average, so it's perfectly possible for a manager to over perform for a season or two, but ultimately if the wage bill isn't there they'll likely drop back again.

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