Tim Fisher's 25,000 claim...... (1 Viewer)

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Mar 24, 2017

At the meeting on Monday Tim Fisher announced to the audience that there had been an agreement between CCFC and CRFC on a number of issues. The one that stands out for me is that the Butts Park Arena would be redeveloped to hold between 12,000 - 25,000. I know there has been a lot of discussion already on this forum concerning the likely limitations of capacity at what appears to be quite a small parcel of land (I'm not familiar with the BPA to be honest).
That apart, this announcement did give me food for though, and I was briefly overcome with a very rare feeling of optimism, only to be completely dashed by what I heard the following day.

The announcement on the CRFC website seems to completely contradict Fisher's announcement that the could be a top end capacity of 25,000, and that they preferred not to expand beyond 12,000.

Did Fisher simply make up this idea purely to try and placate those at the meeting or did he genuinely believe it to be true having, I presume, been informed by the powers that be at the Butts Park Arena?

If there was never any truth whatsoever in his 25,000 capacity notion then this is absolutely despicable, and the act of a coward. Is there any evidence that Fisher had it on authority that there was the possibility of a 25,000 capacity stadium ? I'd like to think so .

Skyblueweeman · Mar 24, 2017

To be fair, there's not been too many truths come from his mouth. I take everything he says now with a huge mountain of salt...

ecky · Mar 24, 2017

The guy tells you what you want to hear....
He would be good on Jackanory

theferret · Mar 24, 2017

I don't believe it is made up - I think the 25K figure was first mentioned when this possibility first came up a year or so ago. In fact, I think it was included in the minutes of an SCG meeting where somebody from the rugby club was in attendance (or there was meeting at which a CRFC representative was present that was minuted - I think). Even then CRFC expressed their desire for something smaller, but the feasibility of the 25K capacity was not questioned at that point, nor has it since.

theferret · Mar 24, 2017

From the SCG minutes from May 2016 (at which Jon Sharp was present). It seems that the 25K possibility came from a study undertaken when the stadium was first built 11 (now 12) years ago:

Butts Park Arena Proposals

Jon Sharp (JSH), Chairman of Coventry RFC, introduced himself to the group and gave some information from his and the rugby club’s perspective around a possible ground-share with CCFC.

We have developed fraternal relationships with the football club for a long time – we respect each other as two clubs who bear the city’s name. We have been in communications with regards to physio, training, joint marketing, joint tickets etc. There was a Coventry RFC forum recently where 150 members turned up regarding plans for next season, finances etc. The stadium was discussed – the fact it is underdeveloped land and the stadium underutilised, and what could be done to benefit the local community. There was discussion around having a hybrid pitch laid so other sports could be played on it. With regards to the rugby club finances, it is difficult as there are only 15 home games a season. The early discussions around the ground share came up. All that was said to the forum members was that we were looking into the feasibility and practicality of such a venture. The media got a hold of this very quickly and it exploded in the press in the week.

Talks are in the very early stages still. We have had some preliminary architect drawings and planning advice but no more than that. We need to recognise that if the majority of fans do not wish to come here then that is a stumbling block. There are other factors too, such as the political situation, planning on the very tight site and funding/financing. There are still a lot of things to discuss and a lot of issues that would need to be resolved.

There would need to be discussions around the size of the ground – last season Cov RFC’s highest attendance was 2100. Jon would not want there to be a similar situation to Darlington who have 900 fans in a 22,000 seater stadium. Also, the FA and Football League would want fans separated whereas rugby fans sit together, with a standing area included. There are also questions around ownership.
The Coventry Telegraph ran a poll and 56% of fans who responded stated they would like to stay at the Ricoh Arena.

In the meantime, we are happy to facilitate the CCFC ticket office, hosting SCG meetings and events to raise funds for the football club. We are very open about the relationship between the two clubs.

All the land belongs to the city council. The owner of the head lease is based in New York – this is a 125 year lease (117 years left). The sub-lease is owned by the rugby club and this does permit the playing of other sports.

The current lease has planning permission for a 13,000 seater stadium, this could be easily replicated and expanded. This is from when the stadium was first built, 11 years ago. The initial study indicated that a ground holding as many as 25K could be built, which would be bigger than the rugby club would need, but it is feasible.

chiefdave · Mar 24, 2017

Mr Sharp told the Coventry Observer today the first stage was to complete a feasibility study for the redevelopment and groundshare, and that architects were currently engaged. The second stage would be to examine financing.

He told us today one possibility was for two new stands to be built in the first instance, with a potential initial capacity of 15,000. The ground currently has one stand and a 4,000 capacity.

He added it was also possible that the ground could be expanded by increments depending on growth and demand, notably were Coventry City Football Club to win promotions.

He said one concern was that the football club’s desire for a 25,000 stadium may be considered too large for Coventry rugby club present crowds, but said nothing was ruled out.

The Butts stadium could increase from the current one-stand 4,000-capacity to 15,000 initially, rising to up to 25,000 if Coventry City secures promotions. As we reported yesterday, Cov rugby chairman Jon Sharp said one possibility was to build two stands initially.

Consultants on real estate and planning have been examining potential possibilities at the Butts for over a year.

The proposal is that Coventry City and Cov rugby would have shares (on a ratio to be decided) in a property company at the redeveloped Butts Park Arena.

Each sporting club would have its own separate operating company. The aim would be to protect each of the clubs from any insolvency event affecting the other.

clint van damme · Mar 24, 2017

who plans for a stadium with such a huge range between lower and upper capacity it's ridiculous.
I'll be astonished if anything happens with regards the Butts.

theferret · Mar 24, 2017

clint van damme said:
who plans for a stadium with such a huge range between lower and upper capacity it's ridiculous.
I'll be astonished if anything happens with regards the Butts.

Well, quite. SISU's inability to deliver on anything makes it all very unlikely. The key point though, in the context of the thread and wider discussion on capacity, is that the 25K feasibility is simply being repeated by the club. It was CRFC who declared it is feasible based on a study they conducted when the stadium was first built.

ConnorDevine · Mar 24, 2017

What a waste of money anyway, how often will be break 15k let alone 25k in league 1 let alone league 2??

clint van damme · Mar 24, 2017

theferret said:
Well, quite. SISU's inability to deliver on anything makes it all very unlikely. The key point though, in the context of the thread and wider discussion on capacity, is that the 25K feasibility is simply being repeated by the club. It was CRFC who declared it is feasible based on a study they conducted when the stadium was first built.

it may be feasible, (I have my doubts about it though to be honest), but I don't think for one minute CRFC have any intention of developing a stadium that big.

shmmeee · Mar 24, 2017

theferret said:
Well, quite. SISU's inability to deliver on anything makes it all very unlikely. The key point though, in the context of the thread and wider discussion on capacity, is that the 25K feasibility is simply being repeated by the club. It was CRFC who declared it is feasible based on a study they conducted when the stadium was first built.

But then chiefdaves quote says the first step will be a feasibility study that hasn't happened yet.

Also, if talks have been happening for a year, what have they been about and why choose now to go public?

The whole thing stinks, just like the last new stadium plan, it just doesn't come across as credible. I'll believe it when I see something other than talk about talks.

theferret · Mar 24, 2017

shmmeee said:
But then chiefdaves quote says the first step will be a feasibility study that hasn't happened yet.

Also, if talks have been happening for a year, what have they been about and why choose now to go public?

The whole thing stinks, just like the last new stadium plan, it just doesn't come across as credible. I'll believe it when I see something other than talk about talks.

The quote from Jon Sharp in May 2016 was:

"The current lease has planning permission for a 13,000 seater stadium, this could be easily replicated and expanded. This is from when the stadium was first built, 11 years ago. The initial study indicated that a ground holding as many as 25K could be built, which would be bigger than the rugby club would need, but it is feasible."

I'm just repeating that. I have no idea if Jon Sharp was making that up. From what I can see, they haven't chosen to go public now, this all came out over a year ago. It just went quiet and has resurfaced. It doesn't make it any more likely, but I do get the impression that Jon Sharp is quite keen on the idea, but clearly he recognises there is a lot of baggage and he has to choose his words very carefully, which is fair enough.

Rodders1 · Mar 24, 2017

ConnorDevine said:
What a waste of money anyway, how often will be break 15k let alone 25k in league 1 let alone league 2??

Love your long term thinking there mate!

Suffolk sky blues · Mar 24, 2017

Tim I don't care about money I love being hated & useless at my job.

skybluetony176 · Mar 24, 2017

theferret said:
Well, quite. SISU's inability to deliver on anything makes it all very unlikely. The key point though, in the context of the thread and wider discussion on capacity, is that the 25K feasibility is simply being repeated by the club. It was CRFC who declared it is feasible based on a study they conducted when the stadium was first built.

I'd imagine that the feasibility of that study is based on a Rugby stadium. Quite different to a football stadium which requires segregation not just inside but also to a lesser degree out. Would the police be able to police it with full home and away capacity both inside and outside the ground with entrance to the stadium at one side only? Would the SAG ever issue a safety certificate for the full capacity for a football match? Would you end up building a 25k stadium that you would never be allowed to sell out for football matches because of safety concerns? Is there any other league stadiums with so much access restrictions because of demographics that could be used as a comparison?

Otis · Mar 24, 2017

theferret said:
The quote from Jon Sharp in May 2016 was:

"The current lease has planning permission for a 13,000 seater stadium, this could be easily replicated and expanded. This is from when the stadium was first built, 11 years ago. The initial study indicated that a ground holding as many as 25K could be built, which would be bigger than the rugby club would need, but it is feasible."

I'm just repeating that. I have no idea if Jon Sharp was making that up. From what I can see, they haven't chosen to go public now, this all came out over a year ago. It just went quiet and has resurfaced. It doesn't make it any more likely, but I do get the impression that Jon Sharp is quite keen on the idea, but clearly he recognises there is a lot of baggage and he has to choose his words very carefully, which is fair enough.

So, if this was from 11 years ago that is before the retirement village was built.

Leamington Pete · Mar 24, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
I'd imagine that the feasibility of that study is based on a Rugby stadium. Quite different to a football stadium which requires segregation not just inside but also to a lesser degree out. Would the police be able to police it with full home and away capacity both inside and outside the ground with entrance to the stadium at one side only? Would the SAG ever issue a safety certificate for the full capacity for a football match? Would you end up building a 25k stadium that you would never be allowed to sell out for football matches because of safety concerns? Is there any other league stadiums with so much access restrictions because of demographics that could be used as a comparison?

It's ok, there's a railway line behind the stadium. They can build another station.

theferret · Mar 24, 2017

Otis said:
So, if this was from 11 years ago that is before the retirement village was built.

Yeah, and probably before the offices next to the old college, so it would certainly need looking at again.

1940oldfive · Mar 24, 2017

theferret said:
The quote from Jon Sharp in May 2016 was:

"The current lease has planning permission for a 13,000 seater stadium, this could be easily replicated and expanded. This is from when the stadium was first built, 11 years ago. The initial study indicated that a ground holding as many as 25K could be built, which would be bigger than the rugby club would need, but it is feasible."

I'm just repeating that. I have no idea if Jon Sharp was making that up. From what I can see, they haven't chosen to go public now, this all came out over a year ago. It just went quiet and has resurfaced. It doesn't make it any more likely, but I do get the impression that Jon Sharp is quite keen on the idea, but clearly he recognises there is a lot of baggage and he has to choose his words very carefully, which is fair enough.

another point it would have to be all seats,no standing

singers_pore · Mar 24, 2017

Fisher said. 12,000 to placate CRFC.

He said 25,000 to con the more gullible members of our fan base.

In reality SISU won't spend money on either a 12,000 capacity or a 25,000 capacity so it's really a moot point.

The council should say the same to SISU as SISU said to the Trust. "Show us proof of funds or else fuck off and stop wasting our time."

dongonzalos · Mar 24, 2017

I don't believe this project will happen under the current SISU structure.
However talking in theory the planning permission for 25k should be granted before any CCFC fan should support it.
Even if only 15k gets built. We need to know the planning permission is there to expand if we get owners whose number one priority is the club.
It would be shocking if the club to got lumbered in a 12k stadium with no prospects of expansion

mds · Mar 25, 2017

clint van damme said:
who plans for a stadium with such a huge range between lower and upper capacity it's ridiculous.
I'll be astonished if anything happens with regards the Butts.

IDK, a team playing in a stadium holding 32000 but attracting averages of 9000, if that right now, who also have hopes of moving up, 10k isnt a huge range is it. HR was what, 22.5k, with a little good luck and a run of results looking like promotion contenders for the duration (not a week or two) whether league 1 or 2 we would be getting close to 15 maybe 20k at the Ricoh, planning on using a stadium with a 15-25k range isnt far off for us when its going ok, when its not 15k is ample, when, if by some miracle we do well and get back to where we were when this shit started we will be wishing we were in a 32000 seater stadium.
As for playing at the Butts, i dont care, as long as the club is going and playing in Coventry i`ll be happy.

Paxman II · Mar 25, 2017

For me its a bit like saying I don't need the Jag anymore and instead I'll lease a Ford Cortina as it's adequate for a year or two.
If we do well can I ask for the Jag back?

clint van damme · Mar 25, 2017

mds said:
IDK, a team playing in a stadium holding 32000 but attracting averages of 9000, if that right now, who also have hopes of moving up, 10k isnt a huge range is it. HR was what, 22.5k, with a little good luck and a run of results looking like promotion contenders for the duration (not a week or two) whether league 1 or 2 we would be getting close to 15 maybe 20k at the Ricoh, planning on using a stadium with a 15-25k range isnt far off for us when its going ok, when its not 15k is ample, when, if by some miracle we do well and get back to where we were when this shit started we will be wishing we were in a 32000 seater stadium.
As for playing at the Butts, i dont care, as long as the club is going and playing in Coventry i`ll be happy.

It's just that I've never heard of a club talking about building a stadium where the upper limit is over 100% bigger than the lower limit, I just find it bizarre.
I'm in no doubt it will not come to fruition but I could be wrong.

señor Santiago · Mar 25, 2017

sisu are charging coventry city £2.5 million interest on £60 million loan.If CCFC can not afford £100,000 yearly rent on the Ricoh. Where they going to get the £10 million to build the stadium.Maybe build a tesco express on the site, and get a free stadium. You never know might get lucky twice

Tim Fisher's 25,000 claim...... (1 Viewer)

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