Thorn Says (1 Viewer)

The Reverend Skyblue · Jan 15, 2012

shmmeee said:
What system would you suggest?

The diamond was thought up because we have a dearth of CMs and no wingers, we still have that squad in fact.

We've tried 433 and looked poor until we switched back to the diamond. 442 is out the window as previously stated we have no wingers. We've tried 532 in some parts of games and it's never looked good, and besides is generally accepted as outdated anyway.

I keep hearing that the diamond is rubbish and the reason we're doing badly, but no-one ever explains why and what should take its place. Much like Thorn really.

Shmee, yes i agree he tries a bit of this and a bit of that, but apart from the diamond he has'nt given another system a good enough go. All i am saying is that with the players we have got ,it is obvious the diamond does'nt work,and that can not be refuted as we are rock bottom.

You say he's tried 433, 343, 442 even 532 but for how long for, 30 minutes in a game or a maximum of 1 or 2 games, you've got to give it longer than that, he's stuck with the diamond for 15 /16 games and we're bottom and 7 points adrift,do something else, why not give 343 a go for 15 games, it just won't click after 1/2 games.

I am not Mr Know all,so can someone then explain to me why he gives a system 15/16 games that won't work but won't try another system for 10/ 15 games just to see if it might work. My opinion only

The Rev

Macca · Jan 15, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
Reverend, that I can almost understand (even though I don't think any manager we are capable of getting would have us outside the relegation zone right now).

It's posts like this that I can never understand:

That's got nothing to do with tactics and there's no logic to it either. It's just pure ignorance.

First up smart arse is where did I suggest my post was anything to do with tactics? Secondly let me explain my ignorance if I humbly may to one so intelligent. If thorn is happy to take sisu s money for job that he cannot do then I m afraid I can t hold him in as high esteem as you. Problem?

shmmeee · Jan 15, 2012

The Reverend Skyblue said:
Shmee, yes i agree he tries a bit of this and a bit of that, but apart from the diamond he has'nt given another system a good enough go. All i am saying is that with the players we have got ,it is obvious the diamond does'nt work,and that can not be refuted as we are rock bottom.

You say he's tried 433, 343, 442 even 532 but for how long for, 30 minutes in a game or a maximum of 1 or 2 games, you've got to give it longer than that, he's stuck with the diamond for 15 /16 games and we're bottom and 7 points adrift,do something else, why not give 343 a go for 15 games, it just won't click after 1/2 games.

I am not Mr Know all,so can someone then explain to me why he gives a system 15/16 games that won't work but won't try another system for 10/ 15 games just to see if it might work. My opinion only

The Rev

An I respect that Rev, I just don't see what's wrong with the diamond.

I see plenty wrong with our squad (size, balance and quality) and see that manifest itself on the pitch. I've not seen us torn apart all season, despite being bloody awful on an individual level. I just don't believe in change for changes sake. You have to have a reason to change to something else, otherwise what's the point.

What, exactly, is your issue with the diamond, and don't just say "it doesn't work" what exactly doesn't work? For me we a have squad with the following characteristics:

- No wingers
- Lots of CMs
- Fullbacks who are good going forward but not so great defensively

That suggests two formations:
- The diamond
- 532

And we've already talked about how 532 isn't really suitable in the modern game. Not to mention we don't have the quality in the middle to play 3, we need the numbers in there to crowd out teams.

That stands for both the formation and Thorn. They may not be great, but I honestly don't see any better options out there. More than happy for someone to tell me otherwise though.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 15, 2012

Whether we play 4-4-2 or the diamond is to an extent irrelevant. Yesterday, we held our own and created sufficient chances to take something from the game. The missing element is quality in critical areas. Finishing, composure, pace and strength.

The formation is to an extent a smokescreen. The issue os a lack of quality in key areas

stupot07 · Jan 15, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Whether we play 4-4-2 or the diamond is to an extent irrelevant. Yesterday, we held our own and created sufficient chances to take something from the game. The missing element is quality in critical areas. Finishing, composure, pace and strength.

The formation is to an extent a smokescreen. The issue os a lack of quality in key areas

You could say the same about the cup game - with a bit of quality and composure we'd have easily been 3-0 up at half time.

SydneySkyBlue · Jan 15, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Whether we play 4-4-2 or the diamond is to an extent irrelevant. Yesterday, we held our own and created sufficient chances to take something from the game. The missing element is quality in critical areas. Finishing, composure, pace and strength.

The formation is to an extent a smokescreen. The issue os a lack of quality in key areas

Bang on MMM.

SydneySkyBlue · Jan 15, 2012

Macca said:
First up smart arse is where did I suggest my post was anything to do with tactics? Secondly let me explain my ignorance if I humbly may to one so intelligent. If thorn is happy to take sisu s money for job that he cannot do then I m afraid I can t hold him in as high esteem as you. Problem?

So your gripe with him is that he accepted the job in the first place? It's your opinion that he's not up to it. It's mine that the brunt doesn't lie with Thorn, it lies with SISU, for the reason MMM states above.

SydneySkyBlue · Jan 15, 2012

I retract my comment about you being ignorant though. We're all passionate about City and we're all entitled to our opinion of course.

Grendel · Jan 15, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
So you're gripe with him is that he accepted the job in the first place? It's your opinion that he's not up to it. It's mine that the brunt doesn't lie with Thorn, it lies with SISU, for the reason MMM states above.

But you still won't bring yourself to say he's up to it. All the fault of sisu but not apparently for their choice of manager.

SydneySkyBlue · Jan 15, 2012

kduffy said:
But you still won't bring yourself to say he's up to it. All the fault of sisu but not apparently for their choice of manager.

Nothing wrong with the choice of manager (suited them down to the ground as it was the cheapest option and pleased the fans). It's the tools that he's been given to work with that are holding him back. His key players have been sold.

It's a bit like sending a lumber jack to work with a knife - a blunt one at that.

Nick · Jan 15, 2012

Does a bad work man not blame his tools?

What about his limited tactical knowledge?

The Reverend Skyblue · Jan 15, 2012

shmmeee said:
An I respect that Rev, I just don't see what's wrong with the diamond.

I see plenty wrong with our squad (size, balance and quality) and see that manifest itself on the pitch. I've not seen us torn apart all season, despite being bloody awful on an individual level. I just don't believe in change for changes sake. You have to have a reason to change to something else, otherwise what's the point.

What, exactly, is your issue with the diamond, and don't just say "it doesn't work" what exactly doesn't work? For me we a have squad with the following characteristics:

- No wingers
- Lots of CMs
- Fullbacks who are good going forward but not so great defensively

That suggests two formations:
- The diamond
- 532

And we've already talked about how 532 isn't really suitable in the modern game. Not to mention we don't have the quality in the middle to play 3, we need the numbers in there to crowd out teams.

That stands for both the formation and Thorn. They may not be great, but I honestly don't see any better options out there. More than happy for someone to tell me otherwise though.

Shmee, i'm thinking on my feet as i wanted to reply to you sooner rather than later.

Also I have not seen all the players available to me in the squad, so there may be someone more suited to a role that the one i've seen.

I love attacking teams, cause them problems before they cause us problems. I think you never win games playing in our half, play balls forward, be brave, i would virtually outlaw the pass to someone who plays it back to you immediately, what is the point of that.the diamond passing move that goes around and comes back to you, the constant playing the ball sideways, its counter productive and tells the opposition you have'nt a clue and your no threat to us.

Anyway im playing 3 5 2

Murphy
Wood Cranie Keogh
Bell Thomas Deegan Clingan Hussey
Nimely McDonald
or
Nimely Freddy when fit

Instruct Bell and Hussey to push down the flanks onto there full backs and when a chance is available get the ball in the box

Deegan do the donkey work in the middle, fight for evrything and get the ball to Sammy and Thomas for them to play the ball forward.

I have'nt seen Nimely but being in the ressie's at Man City and the way he's built means he must be a better bet than Platt centre forward

Bigi and Christie off the bench but very much involved with the first team ,and regularly played in the late second half until both get the much needed experience to play at this level

Schmee this is my alternative and as you say the only alternative from the diamond you've seen from somebody else.

Its open to ridicule and i will get "what are you thinking of" ,but it is my opinion only

The Rev

Nick · Jan 15, 2012

I remember when Thorn came in he said he was going to go all out attack and if we win 5-4 then so be it!

What happened to that?

lordsummerisle · Jan 15, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Whether we play 4-4-2 or the diamond is to an extent irrelevant. Yesterday, we held our own and created sufficient chances to take something from the game. The missing element is quality in critical areas. Finishing, composure, pace and strength.

The formation is to an extent a smokescreen. The issue os a lack of quality in key areas

Three attempts on target and five off target in 90 mimutes sufficient chances in comparison to the 12 and 6 for Derby?

Grendel · Jan 15, 2012

Never let statistics get in the way of a bad argument - or a bad manager.

SydneySkyBlue · Jan 15, 2012

Nick said:
Does a bad work man not blame his tools?

What about his limited tactical knowledge?

I just don't think you can judge Thorn under the present circumstances. I'd argue that the results we are getting are the best we can hope for. We don't have the right kind of players for say a 4-4-2 and would only have lost by more goals.

john robinson · Jan 15, 2012

I have heard the person at the helm of the capsized cruise ships name is andy thorn.

stupot07 · Jan 15, 2012

john robinson said:
I have heard the person at the helm of the capsized cruise ships name is andy thorn.

Was the ship built by SISU? If so it probably had used a plaster to cover over the massive whole in the hull.....oh it had just loaned it's engine out to another boat.

Nonleagueherewecome · Jan 15, 2012

Macca said:
No I blame sisu and thorn who is happy to be on their payroll
Despite knowing he can t do anything. They are one and the same

So you blame a man for trying to do an impossible job? How would anyone else make any difference? By your paradoxical logic, anybody who even takes the job should immediately resign to keep their integrity intact!

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 15, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
I just don't think you can judge Thorn under the present circumstances. I'd argue that the results we are getting are the best we can hope for. We don't have the right kind of players for say a 4-4-2 and would only have lost by more goals.

Yep. Only recognised strikers available were ROD, Platt, Jeffers, Eastwood, and McSheff-Jeffers and ROD look well out of their depth, Platt's unfit, Eastwood's barely fit, which leaves only one fit front man. You only have to look at the academy leagues to see we've got a very promising youth set-up, which is at risk of being put to waste by the need to put these kids in the firing line way too early.
Thorn is far from flawless as a manager, but to people demanding he go, who out there who a) would genuinely do any better, b) be willing to take the hotseat, and c) be affordable? Nobody. The man is doing the best he can with a 4th tier set-up, a 3rd tier squad, and a Sunday league transfer budget; results and performances show if a budget of any description were available, we would not be sat bottom of the table, that's for sure...

Nonleagueherewecome · Jan 15, 2012

shmmeee said:
An I respect that Rev, I just don't see what's wrong with the diamond.

I see plenty wrong with our squad (size, balance and quality) and see that manifest itself on the pitch. I've not seen us torn apart all season, despite being bloody awful on an individual level. I just don't believe in change for changes sake. You have to have a reason to change to something else, otherwise what's the point.

What, exactly, is your issue with the diamond, and don't just say "it doesn't work" what exactly doesn't work? For me we a have squad with the following characteristics:

- No wingers
- Lots of CMs
- Fullbacks who are good going forward but not so great defensively

That suggests two formations:
- The diamond
- 532

And we've already talked about how 532 isn't really suitable in the modern game. Not to mention we don't have the quality in the middle to play 3, we need the numbers in there to crowd out teams.

That stands for both the formation and Thorn. They may not be great, but I honestly don't see any better options out there. More than happy for someone to tell me otherwise though.

Great post, one of many in this thread; I couldn't agree more.

Whilst it is inevitable that any side that is bottom of their division has fans criticising the manager, it is refreshing to see that many of ours retain a sense of perspective.

We have a very weak squad, particularly in terms of depth. McAllister was pitching in kids, but he had 5 of our best players (who Black made a team out of) ostracised from the squad and training up The Memorial Park!

We aren't being outplayed, and the players are giving everything they have. Past sides had much more quality, but was coasting. I haven't seen any thing like the end-of-season games under Coleman against Watford and Charlton, or Blackpool away.

A major reason we lose games by fine margins is that we lack options on the bench compared to the rest of the division; other sides have people who could be in the first team, and can make adjustments. Whereas 2nd half, 3 or 4 of our guys struggle as they're injured and wouldn't even be on the pitch at any other club! The rest are knackered as we can't afford a fitness coach, and because they've pressed the opposition so hard to make up for our lack of quality that they have nothing in the tank.

If we make a change, it's to replace one walking wounded with a kid who has had 1 weeks training and a game against Chesterfield reserves in 6 months, and a mid-30's L2 carthorse striker with a lazy git with a WAG called Chardonnay who is refusing to train as he sits out the last year of his fat contract. Go figure.

When AT has had half-useable options on the bench, he has made tactical adjustments that worked- for example Bristol C and Southampton. He's not the problem, and under any other manager willing to accept the circumstances at the club and give it a go, I think we'd have a goal difference of -30 by now. Remember how bad we were under Aidy? And that was with 3 or 4 quality players and a bench!

SydneySkyBlue · Jan 15, 2012

Nicely summed up there NLHWC. Sometimes it takes a post like yours to remind you just what state our club is in. Sad times.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Jan 15, 2012

I think it is more the personal and player positioning in the diamond than the actual formation itself.
Baker and Bell have never played a central midfield role in there life which is where they have both been played on numerous times this season at LCM or RCM. Baker has always been know as a CAM/SS at Stockport and a RW at Cov. Bell has always been know as a RM or LM.
Same for Mcsheff when has he ever been known to be a CAM, he has always been a LW or a ST throughout his career. We look a lot better when we play Deegan/Thomas/Gardner for a short time in these CM roles. Also I think the diamond falls down at the tip, we have no quality CAM in the squad which we desperately need.

Macca · Jan 15, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
I retract my comment about you being ignorant though. We're all passionate about City and we're all entitled to our opinion of course.

Apologies for my shortness, these are such frustrating times! I think I ve done my thorn point to death now anyway

Macca · Jan 15, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
So you blame a man for trying to do an impossible job? How would anyone else make any difference? By your paradoxical logic, anybody who even takes the job should immediately resign to keep their integrity intact!

Now if your going to use words like paradoxical I m not playing. This is a footy forum not scrabble!

stupot07 · Jan 15, 2012

CCFC said:
I think it is more the personal and player positioning in the diamond than the actual formation itself.
Baker and Bell have never played a central midfield role in there life which is where they have both been played on numerous times this season at LCM or RCM. Baker has always been know as a CAM/SS at Stockport and a RW at Cov. Bell has always been know as a RM or LM.
Same for Mcsheff when has he ever been known to be a CAM, he has always been a LW or a ST throughout his career. We look a lot better when we play Deegan/Thomas/Gardner for a short time in these CM roles. Also I think the diamond falls down at the tip, we have no quality CAM in the squad which we desperately need.

Bell has played centre mid - that's where he started his career at rushdon diamonds and also at Luton. I remember hearing him saying it when he was interviewed on cwr towards the end of last season. If you google "David bell centre midfield" the top link is to his profile on the Luton page saying he plays centre and right midfield.

Your right about baker and sheffers though.

Grendel · Jan 15, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
Great post, one of many in this thread; I couldn't agree more.

Whilst it is inevitable that any side that is bottom of their division has fans criticising the manager, it is refreshing to see that many of ours retain a sense of perspective.

We have a very weak squad, particularly in terms of depth. McAllister was pitching in kids, but he had 5 of our best players (who Black made a team out of) ostracised from the squad and training up The Memorial Park!

We aren't being outplayed, and the players are giving everything they have. Past sides had much more quality, but was coasting. I haven't seen any thing like the end-of-season games under Coleman against Watford and Charlton, or Blackpool away.

A major reason we lose games by fine margins is that we lack options on the bench compared to the rest of the division; other sides have people who could be in the first team, and can make adjustments. Whereas 2nd half, 3 or 4 of our guys struggle as they're injured and wouldn't even be on the pitch at any other club! The rest are knackered as we can't afford a fitness coach, and because they've pressed the opposition so hard to make up for our lack of quality that they have nothing in the tank.

If we make a change, it's to replace one walking wounded with a kid who has had 1 weeks training and a game against Chesterfield reserves in 6 months, and a mid-30's L2 carthorse striker with a lazy git with a WAG called Chardonnay who is refusing to train as he sits out the last year of his fat contract. Go figure.

When AT has had half-useable options on the bench, he has made tactical adjustments that worked- for example Bristol C and Southampton. He's not the problem, and under any other manager willing to accept the circumstances at the club and give it a go, I think we'd have a goal difference of -30 by now. Remember how bad we were under Aidy? And that was with 3 or 4 quality players and a bench!

Well it's a very well constructed argument and at least you argue some qualities that you believe you see in Thorn whereas many supporters seem just to see him as a curious cult hero standing against SISU - something I can never understand.

In truth the game is over - Thorn is here to stay at least until the contract expires at the end of the season so in that respect the debate is over.

Interestingly I listened to the Premier League review show today and Danny Mills was on the programme talking about Steve Keane and Blackburn Rovers. You could parrellell the comments about Keane to Thorn. Mills was critical of the manager and gave an interesting insight into how players view poorly qualified managers in the dressing room.

Anyway that is an aside. Truth is I have always viewed the ownership issue as totally outside of our sphere of influence. Yes protest and debate all we like but the owners will not here us from the Cayman Islands, Norway or wherever they are. They do not care they have never cared. They will go but this will be on their terms and when someone is prepared to buy.

So, change had to be effected elsewhere. I have always been of the view that Thorn is an inadequate person in the role, employed as he will endure all his owners throw at him but ultimately on the results front will always fail. The argument constantly comes back no-one could do better. My view is unless the team remains in the division this doesn't matter. So regardless of formation, tactics, personality, ownership the chance should have been taken.

In a couple of years time likelihood is we will be far lower than we are now. We will probably be playing on a wet Tuesday night against Burton Albion. Some may then think if a change was made 2 years ago would we be better off. Now we will never know. The irony is I will be at that game -- many of the Thorn supporters I am sure will not.

Andy Thorn will not be there either. He will be gone perhaps back to scouting or even as a manager but it will be for another Club. He will not be giving Coventry City a single thought anymore he will be focusing his attentions elsewhere. Sadly I and a few other won't be.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Jan 15, 2012

stupot07 said:
Bell has played centre mid - that's where he started his career at rushdon diamonds and also at Luton. I remember hearing him saying it when he was interviewed on cwr towards the end of last season. If you google "David bell centre midfield" the top link is to his profile on the Luton page saying he plays centre and right midfield.

Your right about baker and sheffers though.

Ahh ok fair enough, Bell doesn't have the physique or work rate to play in the CM positions anyway.

john robinson · Jan 15, 2012

stupot07 said:
Was the ship built by SISU? If so it probably had used a plaster to cover over the massive whole in the hull.....oh it had just loaned it's engine out to another boat.

Andy Thorn was the captain of the capsized cruise ship.

Grendel · Jan 16, 2012

ccfcway said:
Is Thorn the worlds best manager, well, no-one knows !

Very true no-one does know.

In years to come we may see him win the Champions League with Barcelona, secure 5 Premier League titles with Arsenal or even be the first manager since Sir Alf to lead us to World Cup glory.

Yes he may do all these things. Personally I remain slightly sceptical.

You may be more confident. Perhaps have a wager at the Bookmakers on one of the above scenarios. I am sure you will get generous odds.

If I were you though I would invest your money more wisely. Perhaps give that nice Mr McIndoe (one of the missing "Coventry 9") a quick call......

Puck · Jan 16, 2012

kduffy said:
Well it's a very well constructed argument and at least you argue some qualities that you believe you see in Thorn whereas many supporters seem just to see him as a curious cult hero standing against SISU - something I can never understand.

In truth the game is over - Thorn is here to stay at least until the contract expires at the end of the season so in that respect the debate is over.

Interestingly I listened to the Premier League review show today and Danny Mills was on the programme talking about Steve Keane and Blackburn Rovers. You could parrellell the comments about Keane to Thorn. Mills was critical of the manager and gave an interesting insight into how players view poorly qualified managers in the dressing room.

Anyway that is an aside. Truth is I have always viewed the ownership issue as totally outside of our sphere of influence. Yes protest and debate all we like but the owners will not here us from the Cayman Islands, Norway or wherever they are. They do not care they have never cared. They will go but this will be on their terms and when someone is prepared to buy.

So, change had to be effected elsewhere. I have always been of the view that Thorn is an inadequate person in the role, employed as he will endure all his owners throw at him but ultimately on the results front will always fail. The argument constantly comes back no-one could do better. My view is unless the team remains in the division this doesn't matter. So regardless of formation, tactics, personality, ownership the chance should have been taken.

In a couple of years time likelihood is we will be far lower than we are now. We will probably be playing on a wet Tuesday night against Burton Albion. Some may then think if a change was made 2 years ago would we be better off. Now we will never know. The irony is I will be at that game -- many of the Thorn supporters I am sure will not.

Andy Thorn will not be there either. He will be gone perhaps back to scouting or even as a manager but it will be for another Club. He will not be giving Coventry City a single thought anymore he will be focusing his attentions elsewhere. Sadly I and a few other won't be.

So in essence, after all the bile you have thrown and continue to throw at Thorn, you realise that he is all we have and are likely to have under the current regime?

Jack Griffin · Jan 16, 2012

Some great posts, nice to see a bit of reasoned debate.

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