The nature of a football club (1 Viewer)

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 3, 2014

wingy said:
Good post ,But It means i did'nt get the original.

The problem is, the argument's all wrong.

The very reasons why the club shouldn't be in Sixfields atm are also the very reasons why a return to the Ricoh shouldn't be about getting value for taxpayers, or getting improved revenue streams for the club.

It should be because the club, and us, need a home.

Not a squat. Just because we're dossing in Northampton doesn't mean we have to accept being peripheral in our home city. Why do we always have such a lack of belief in ourselves we settle for second best?

And that, incidentally, doesn't equate to 'SISU must own the Ricoh' as that's still the profit motive, innit bruv.

Grendel · Mar 3, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
The problem is, the argument's all wrong.

The very reasons why the club shouldn't be in Sixfields atm are also the very reasons why a return to the Ricoh shouldn't be about getting value for taxpayers, or getting improved revenue streams for the club.

It should be because the club, and us, need a home.

Not a squat. Just because we're dossing in Northampton doesn't mean we have to accept being peripheral in our home city. Why do we always have such a lack of belief in ourselves we settle for second best?

And that, incidentally, doesn't equate to 'SISU must own the Ricoh' as that's still the profit motive, innit bruv.

I'm struggling with your philosophy and cannot determine your recommended strategy.

Neither side are interested in the utopia you crave for.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 3, 2014

Grendel said:
Neither side are interested in the utopia you crave for.

Exactly.

RFC · Mar 3, 2014

skybluefred said:
Being one of the more intelligent posters you must surely know the root cause of the problem.
From the moment Man Utd and a few other high flying Clubs threatened to move abroad unless,
they got a premier league with virtually there own governance,and also the control of sky sports millions.

English football died on that day.The majority of T/V revenue should be shared among the four leagues,
with the residue going to non league clubs. The situation that exists is grossly unfair--ie one player can
be paid £300,000 a week whilst others in lower leagues will be lucky to receive that amount in two years.

That's why I do not have sky or BT on my T/V.

Totally agree and don't have either SKY or BT and never will, they along with Agents have ruined the game.

skybluetony176 · Mar 3, 2014

RFC said:
Totally agree and don't have either SKY or BT and never will, they along with Agents have ruined the game.

You forgot to mention unscrupulous owners who are only interested in there investors who have no interest in the club other than using it to make as much money as possible for them selves and screw everyone else like hard working tax payers who spend a large percentage of there earnings that are left after paying all there taxes as they don't earn enough to enter tax avoidance schemes or have offshore bank accounts, local government or local charities that help underprivileged children.

Then there's the FL & FA who seem happy enough to let all the things that are ruining football for the common man happen so long as fixture list are fulfilled meaning they can take the precious from the sponsors.

The Gentleman · Mar 3, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
It is quite sad really, most argument on here is about SISU's (lack of) business acumen whereas the it should be a complete irrelevance.

Not really sure what the answer is whilst the main focus for many clubs outside of the Premier League is to get to the Premier League for a large payday. That background clouds the whole game and has led CCFC to where it is now.

But it is exactly Sisu's (lack of) business acumen which has put us in the position we are in so unfortunately it is relevant to a certain extent.

We can all dream that football is owned by good men who only want the best for the paying fan and they make sure they only pay a lowly amount to watch their team. The harsh reality is that where there is a place to exploit and make money then you will have greedy people around to try and do that. Unfortunately the PL is the holy grail, whether it is fans or owners who want it. Owners because of the money they can make and fans because as fans we want success (who would want what we have had to endure for god knows how long) and from success you get promotion and ultimately the PL. People can say all they want about the PL being a turn off (and to an extent it is) but is there really any CCFC fan on here that wouldn't want to be in, say Southampton's position. Good owner who yes will be making money but also backs his manager and team with real investment, great atmosphere in a good ground (full) because the advert on the pitch attracts them and all because they have achieved success and now play in the PL. Give me that any day of the fucking week over what we have!

Sky Blue Harry H · Mar 3, 2014

Do you know what, although all this has got me thoroughly depressed, I look over at what's going on over in Ukraine and thank God that this is all I have got to worry about - puts things in perspective. However, come Wednesday night - if Putin's red army haven't kicked off big style, then I'll probably focus on Walsall's red army for a couple of hours and forget about WW3. Although I moan about this country now and then, I've got to say I feel bl**dy lucky that I was born here. :thinking about:

Cheshire Sky Blue · Mar 3, 2014

covcity4life said:
they don't have greedy ass councils.

Totally and utterly clueless.

Grendel · Mar 3, 2014

Cheshire Sky Blue said:
Totally and utterly clueless.

I know you are.

torchomatic · Mar 3, 2014

Cheshire Sky Blue said:
Totally and utterly clueless.

I don’t know. Ann Lucas seems to have more about her than Mutton.

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wingy · Mar 3, 2014

Thread full of Trolls Wums and Scabs .

MichaelCCFC · Mar 3, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
So, what is a football club?

Investment opportunity? Not likely. Why should anybody have the right to make money off the back of me being cursed with a choice I certainly didn't make rationally?

Property development opportunity? Again, nope. Football clubs being used as battering rams to allow for commercial developments seems dubious pratice, too. I could have lived without a massive Tesco's tbh, and if one was needed it should be built regardless.

To me, we get bogged down in the financial far too much. By doing so we run the rules of debate exactly how SISU would wish.

A club is not about the money, it's about the people. A club *should* be central to its home, even if that knocks out the wishes of some shareholders to take a dividend, it should also be central even if, somewhere, that means a multi-purpose venue becomes single purpose as a result.

If we, the fans, can't make the club central at a time when nobody else wants to, when it becomes a sideshow in the eyes of some compared to the greater prizes, then what hope have we got?

Wycombe are trying to sort a deal where the Trust sells out to new owners. Central to that deal is the fact the Trust keep hold of the ground, the bowl, and make it a condition that Adams Park is kept for the club, by the club... the club is central to the ground.

We're so wrapped up in talk of community assets, taxpayers, and investment portfolios we risk our club not having a home even if it returns to the Ricoh...

More a place to reside.

'Club' is now a problematic term. I know what fans are. I know what the team is. I know the owners are sisu. But what is the club? 'Club' and 'owners' tend to be used interchangeably a lot of the time. There's never any suggestion ACL or council are part of the club and they're certainly not. There's a lot of warm words about fans being the club but it is just words and means nothing concrete. So are sisu the club? Saturday night's FPA-fan event was really good and again made me feel that the team and fans are the priority not politics and profit. I only ever get more convinced that a fan-led ownership model is the only way things will improve because I don't know anyone who thinks sisu are good for ccfc and why would another rich owner be any better - look at today's news about Birmingham!

letsallsingtogether · Mar 3, 2014

But it will never work just look at Germany where the fans own 51%
What do any of there teams win. :thinking about:

Oh yea just a poxy European cup who would want that.

QUOTE=MichaelCCFC;660484]'Club' is now a problematic term. I know what fans are. I know what the team is. I know the owners are sisu. But what is the club? 'Club' and 'owners' tend to be used interchangeably a lot of the time. There's never any suggestion ACL or council are part of the club and they're certainly not. There's a lot of warm words about fans being the club but it is just words and means nothing concrete. So are sisu the club? Saturday night's FPA-fan event was really good and again made me feel that the team and fans are the priority not politics and profit. I only ever get more convinced that a fan-led ownership model is the only way things will improve because I don't know anyone who thinks sisu are good for ccfc and why would another rich owner be any better - look at today's news about Birmingham![/QUOTE]

stupot07 · Mar 3, 2014

It only works in Germany because all German clubs have to abide by those laws. The English game with the PL and all the money sloshing around is at the point of no return.

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Deleted member 5849 · Mar 3, 2014

stupot07 said:
It only works in Germany because all German clubs have to abide by those laws. The English game with the PL and all the money sloshing around is at the point of no return.

Yup, Wycombe in my first post are looking to sell the club as the trust just can't afford to run it.

The happy compromise is the infrastructure is kept for the club... in a way that stops exploitation by the club.

Hobo · Mar 4, 2014

I'm not sure how viable fan run clubs are in this country? But I would like to see a rule where a certain amount of shares have to be owned by a supporters trust and can never be sold.

It would be good so fans always have a say and certain information can't be hidden from them.

You should never have the situation you had with SISU where they held a gun to minority shareholders heads during the takeover...we have a monopoly on all shares or nothing..

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 4, 2014

Hobo said:
You should never have the situation you had with SISU where they held a gun to minority shareholders heads during the takeover...we have a monopoly on all shares or nothing..

To be fair, if we had more belief in ourselves, that should have been an early clue that maybe nothing was preferable...

As opposed to pushing shareholders to give them up.

Hobo · Mar 4, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
To be fair, if we had more belief in ourselves, that should have been an early clue that maybe nothing was preferable...

As opposed to pushing shareholders to give them up.

It set the alarm bells ringing for me....but another part of me hoped they would just bring some sensible economics to the club.....I wasn't after huge investment.

shmmeee · Mar 4, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
Or, £1.2m for 7 years.

What do we pay for a £10m loan from ARVO?

What would the interest payments on a stadium be?

What were we paying at HR?

And more the the actual point: what's on offer now?

Or do you refuse to go to Germany because of the war?

No-one forced the rent on the club. The club said as recently as the chairman before Fisher the rent was fine.

Stop using this ridiculous strawman.

fernandopartridge · Mar 4, 2014

The Gentleman said:
But it is exactly Sisu's (lack of) business acumen which has put us in the position we are in so unfortunately it is relevant to a certain extent.

We can all dream that football is owned by good men who only want the best for the paying fan and they make sure they only pay a lowly amount to watch their team. The harsh reality is that where there is a place to exploit and make money then you will have greedy people around to try and do that. Unfortunately the PL is the holy grail, whether it is fans or owners who want it. Owners because of the money they can make and fans because as fans we want success (who would want what we have had to endure for god knows how long) and from success you get promotion and ultimately the PL. People can say all they want about the PL being a turn off (and to an extent it is) but is there really any CCFC fan on here that wouldn't want to be in, say Southampton's position. Good owner who yes will be making money but also backs his manager and team with real investment, great atmosphere in a good ground (full) because the advert on the pitch attracts them and all because they have achieved success and now play in the PL. Give me that any day of the fucking week over what we have!

Honestly, I really couldn't care less about being in the Premier League. The game is completely fucked because of the Premier League.

fernandopartridge · Mar 4, 2014

shmmeee said:
What do we pay for a £10m loan from ARVO?

What would the interest payments on a stadium be?

What were we paying at HR?

And more the the actual point: what's on offer now?

Or do you refuse to go to Germany because of the war?

No-one forced the rent on the club. The club said as recently as the chairman before Fisher the rent was fine.

Stop using this ridiculous strawman.

Yours is the strawman argument. There is a clear implicit recognition in the many 'offers' made by ACL post negotiation that the rent was excessive.

What SISU charge in interest is completely and utterly irrelevant to whether or not the rent was excessive.

The Gentleman · Mar 4, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
Honestly, I really couldn't care less about being in the Premier League. The game is completely fucked because of the Premier League.

I know what you're saying and I felt like that for a while about the game in general. However, as much as I love CCFC, I love the game too and when it is played properly I do enjoy it and watching teams like Arsenal, Southampton and even Everton at times.There are some good young English players and that in turn has got me watching Internationals too. So if you gave the what we have now or have had in recent against playing in the PL, it's the PL every time mate.

wingy · Mar 4, 2014

Surely the Idea Is Competition .
Competition to be as High up the Pile as It can take you .
As corrupt as the Prem Is !!

fernandopartridge · Mar 4, 2014

wingy said:
Surely the Idea Is Competition .
Competition to be as High up the Pile as It can take you .
As corrupt as the Prem Is !!

I understand that and the idea of City competing at the highest level is of course something I'd like, but not if the 'highest' level is as distorted as the Premier League is.

wingy · Mar 4, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
I understand that and the idea of City competing at the highest level is of course something I'd like, but not if the 'highest' level is as distorted as the Premier League is.

Agree mate ,can't see anyone changing It ,maybe Economics will finally have Its day.

duffer · Mar 4, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
The problem is, the argument's all wrong.

The very reasons why the club shouldn't be in Sixfields atm are also the very reasons why a return to the Ricoh shouldn't be about getting value for taxpayers, or getting improved revenue streams for the club.

It should be because the club, and us, need a home.

Not a squat. Just because we're dossing in Northampton doesn't mean we have to accept being peripheral in our home city. Why do we always have such a lack of belief in ourselves we settle for second best?

And that, incidentally, doesn't equate to 'SISU must own the Ricoh' as that's still the profit motive, innit bruv.

I'm with you almost 100% on everything you've posted above, except that I think that a club has to pay its way and shouldn't expect any help from the taxpayer. I'm not just talking about us here, btw - any business that can afford to pay its staff six or seven-figure salaries shouldn't be expecting help from the state, I'd argue.

I don't mind the old-fashioned model of club ownership where a local businessman wanted a stake in the club to increase his own profile, and didn't really expect to make anything from it (although even that is open to abuse, in fairness). But the concept of a club solely as a vehicle for profit is fairly odious, and it does feel like the game is out of control now.

Sooner or later something will go pop. How on earth can Sky or BT make a profit on football given the amount they pay for rights. Actually, that's a good question - do Sky or BT make a profit on football, does anyone here know?

The Gentleman · Mar 4, 2014

duffer said:
I'm with you almost 100% on everything you've posted above, except that I think that a club has to pay its way and shouldn't expect any help from the taxpayer. I'm not just talking about us here, btw - any business that can afford to pay its staff six or seven-figure salaries shouldn't be expecting help from the state, I'd argue.

I don't mind the old-fashioned model of club ownership where a local businessman wanted a stake in the club to increase his own profile, and didn't really expect to make anything from it (although even that is open to abuse, in fairness). But the concept of a club solely as a vehicle for profit is fairly odious, and it does feel like the game is out of control now.

Sooner or later something will go pop. How on earth can Sky or BT make a profit on football given the amount they pay for rights. Actually, that's a good question - do Sky or BT make a profit on football, does anyone here know?

With what Sky charge me now, i would imagine a fooking fortune!

blueflint · Mar 4, 2014

torchomatic said:
And it's ACL
A-C-L
There by far the greatest joint venture company consisting of Coventry City Council and the Alan Edward Higgs Charity the world has ever seen.

you still miss the point then torch go back to the start the move from highfield rd .who negotiated the rent thats where it went wrong follow that with relegation and owners who are at best unscrupulous .
we as a club have been sold down the river by owners past and present the council and ACL only got the best deal they could the club owners didn't not the council or ACL's fault

DazzleTommyDazzle · Mar 4, 2014

duffer said:
Sooner or later something will go pop. How on earth can Sky or BT make a profit on football given the amount they pay for rights. Actually, that's a good question - do Sky or BT make a profit on football, does anyone here know?

Speaking from memory, in the early days of satellite TV Sky were making a loss and struggling to attract sufficient customers. They'd been working on the basis that the movie channels would bring in subscribers, but people were still happy to go to Blockbuster etc.

It was when they got live football that the subscriber numbers took off. As I recall it was originally something like £3.99/month to get the most basic package that included football. Then when they'd got the numbers on board, it went up and up and up.

So if all that is correct, you could argue that their entire business model has been based on football.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 4, 2014

Yeah, football was always used as a battering ram by Sky to increase subscribers, and BT are trying the same trick now.

DaleM · Mar 4, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
Yeah, football was always used as a battering ram by Sky to increase subscribers, and BT are trying the same trick now.

It's a little late for BT IMO . The advent of foreign satellite systems and now IPTV must be eating into their subscriber bases by now . I know lots of people now going down that route and the quality is getting better all the time. Indeed my android tab with XBMC allows me to watch any game that is televised anywhere in the world and even CCFC games can be found by hijacking the feed from the ground being sent back to sky with the correct equipment.

covmark · Mar 4, 2014

DaleM said:
It's a little late for BT IMO . The advent of foreign satellite systems and now IPTV must be eating into their subscriber bases by now . I know lots of people now going down that route and the quality is getting better all the time. Indeed my android tab with XBMC allows me to watch any game that is televised anywhere in the world and even CCFC games can be found by hijacking the feed from the ground being sent back to sky with the correct equipment.

All round to yours to watch the game tomorrow then?

Grendel · Mar 4, 2014

blueflint said:
you still miss the point then torch go back to the start the move from highfield rd .who negotiated the rent thats where it went wrong follow that with relegation and owners who are at best unscrupulous .
we as a club have been sold down the river by owners past and present the council and ACL only got the best deal they could the club owners didn't not the council or ACL's fault

Joe Elliot unscrupulous? There you go.

duffer · Mar 4, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
Yeah, football was always used as a battering ram by Sky to increase subscribers, and BT are trying the same trick now.

Ah, got it - thanks gents. At a billion for Champions League football, it must be the most expensive loss leader ever! Surely this can't be sustainable?

wingy · Mar 4, 2014

As Its heading that way here's a poser..It was'nt that long ago that Gartside @ Bolton was suggesting No relegation from the Prem ,I guess he sensed the inevitable ?

so just for arguments sake say UTD spiral over the next 2-3 seasons as the Green + yellow FC UTD element among their support speculated .

What would UTD's stance be @ the precipice to Div 2, the same ?? How would SKY and the FA play that one should It come to pass??

The nature of a football club (1 Viewer)

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