The land around the Ricoh (1 Viewer)

Otis · Dec 13, 2012

1. Seems nearly everyone completely distrusts Sisu and their intentions for an end game.

2. Seems quite a few people don't want to see Sisu get their hands on the stadium (council etc included).

Now I may be way off the mark here, but once the rent is sorted out why couldn't Sisu just be allowed to negotiate for the land surrounding the Ricoh rather than for the Ricoh itself?

The ground would therefore remain under the control of Higgs and the council through ACL and Sisu could make their money from the land and anything they were allowed to build on it in the way of exhibition centres, hotels and retail.

Or am I talking nonsense?

No share or ownership of the stadium, but the land!

skyblueman · Dec 13, 2012

Needs money Otis & Sisu ain't got any

Otis · Dec 13, 2012

But they have for half of the stadium?:thinking about:

We'll_live_and_die · Dec 13, 2012

SISU have plenty of money, they just don't want to keep throwing it at CCFC, which is essentially a failing business.

CCFC are unlikely to be their sole investment.

Otis · Dec 13, 2012

And as I've said before, the money's in the surrounding land.

This is what the CET was talking about with that potential Chinese investor. The money to be made from the land around the stadium.

oldskyblue58 · Dec 13, 2012

because the land around the stadium is covered by ACL's long lease I believe Otis .......... cant see ACL conceding more to SISU, surely they would want to develop that themselves....... SISU are not in the business of land development, but councils are.

skyblueman · Dec 13, 2012

Rich said:
SISU have plenty of money, they just don't want to keep throwing it at CCFC, which is essentially a failing business.

CCFC are unlikely to be their sole investment.

Do they? I'm not so sure they do these days

hutch1972 · Dec 13, 2012

The land is part of the problem, the council want whoever owns it to build hotel and leisure facilities on it , leaving them to concentrate on wasting tax payers money on endless city centre initiatives.
How would you like to buy a house and be told you have to pay for kitchen extensions for the whole street !!

torchomatic · Dec 13, 2012

Write to the Council and tell 'em straight. We don't want CCFC owning the land, but the Chinese are OK. MUtton would love it!!

Otis said:
And as I've said before, the money's in the surrounding land.

This is what the CET was talking about with that potential Chinese investor. The money to be made from the land around the stadium.

oldskyblue58 · Dec 13, 2012

possible scenario ......

JS sits there in each and every meeting saying "we will pay only £170k, for that we get the match day income and ACL pay all the costs of the stadium operation on match days". She knows that is not commercially fair or realistic to ACL so they wont accept (clubs that own their ground pay mortgages, power bills, staff etc yanno) Refuses to budge from that position simply repeats it to ACL, Council, Charity, Bank & accountants. Because she wants to distress ACL to the point she can get hold of it, she isnt going to negotiate, relies on how important CCFC is to the City so no one will push the button. In the meantime the club are releasing placatory and misleading statements including a threat to move. Add to that the possibility of buying ACL's loan off the bank to use as a lever to get ACL which would be then 100% vulnerable to SISU. :thinking about:Not saying this is going on this way but it is a course of action I would consider if i was in her position.

No doubt I will be accused of an over active imagination and conspiracy theories ......... but think about it, what would your aim be to get out of a £40m black hole? a community loss making football club or an aggressive acquisition of the ACL assets ? Step back and put yourself in her place and not see it through CCFC tinted specs. Remember what it is that drives a hedge fund and its owners...... money and a reasonably short term return. Think about how many times they have done this and the reputation gained. Is it so far fetched?

and yes i know business is business and no friends in business etc etc.......

Where is the negotiation, where is the possibilty of arbitration, what is the point of talking ?

Godiva · Dec 13, 2012

Say you're right OSB - How much profit would/could they make on ACL? Please put some numbers on the table. That will most likely strengthen your argument.

lordsummerisle · Dec 13, 2012

They could buy the land around the Arena, then not let anybody in for concerts and conferences etc, just for the football.

Trenches, moats and machine gun nests could be considered an extreme negotiating tactic, but hey, that's business.

dongonzalos · Dec 13, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
because the land around the stadium is covered by ACL's long lease I believe Otis .......... cant see ACL conceding more to SISU, surely they would want to develop that themselves....... SISU are not in the business of land development, but councils are.

I wish ACL would say sod it. We are a charity with aims to regenerate Coventry. Let's go for it and all profits are fed back in to the charity.

Otis · Dec 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
Write to the Council and tell 'em straight. We don't want CCFC owning the land, but the Chinese are OK. MUtton would love it!!

What on earth are you talking about? :facepalm:

All I am asking is the question, could there be negotiation for the land only.

Only alluded to the Chinese story because it was the land this so called investor would have been interested in.

Who said that we don't want CCFC to own the land, but the Chinese to?

:facepalm:

skyblueman · Dec 13, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
possible scenario ......

JS sits there in each and every meeting saying "we will pay only £170k, for that we get the match day income and ACL pay all the costs of the stadium operation on match days". She knows that is not commercially fair or realistic to ACL so they wont accept (clubs that own their ground pay mortgages, power bills, staff etc yanno) Refuses to budge from that position simply repeats it to ACL, Council, Charity, Bank & accountants. Because she wants to distress ACL to the point she can get hold of it, she isnt going to negotiate, relies on how important CCFC is to the City so no one will push the button. In the meantime the club are releasing placatory and misleading statements including a threat to move. Add to that the possibility of buying ACL's loan off the bank to use as a lever to get ACL which would be then 100% vulnerable to SISU. :thinking about:Not saying this is going on this way but it is a course of action I would consider if i was in her position.

No doubt I will be accused of an over active imagination and conspiracy theories ......... but think about it, what would your aim be to get out of a £40m black hole? a community loss making football club or an aggressive acquisition of the ACL assets ? Step back and put yourself in her place and not see it through CCFC tinted specs. Remember what it is that drives a hedge fund and its owners...... money and a reasonably short term return. Think about how many times they have done this and the reputation gained. Is it so far fetched?

and yes i know business is business and no friends in business etc etc.......

Where is the negotiation, where is the possibilty of arbitration, what is the point of talking ?

Plausible OSB because honestly I can see no exit for SISU on this at all from where we are - even if the rent is ZERO it's still a basket case

SISU HAVE to do something radical now for good or otherwise because as it stands they have a dog on their hands which is just going to keep draining money and not increasing in value - it's worth nothing now and unless something big happens it's going to be worth nothing in 5 years time too

torchomatic · Dec 13, 2012

You have. Anyone but SISU. That's why you wrote to good ole John, isn't it?

Otis said:
Who said that we don't want CCFC to own the land, but the Chinese to?

:facepalm:

Otis · Dec 13, 2012

I have never ever said anyone but Sisu.

oldskyblue58 · Dec 13, 2012

Not going to put figures on the table Godiva, for one thing I am not a valuer and for another it was only a scenario. Not saying they get all their money back btw - this is a part of a bigger fund and profits or losses are traded off within it to get overall value

Have put down how i think SISU might try to get out of this mess its about time others put down how they think SISU will or can get out of it given what we know. Because how they exit is the crux of the matter not the CCFC rent in my opinion

I accept some might think it is "operation premiership" ...... some seem to think the rent at £170k will make all the difference. So come on then put "yourself" (open invite to all) in JS's position and how would you plan your exit strategy, what gets your investors some of their money back. It is only opinions after all - including much of what I put down

lordsummerisle · Dec 13, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
Not going to put figures on the table Godiva, for one thing I am not a valuer and for another it was only a scenario. Not saying they get all their money back btw - this is a part of a bigger fund and profits or losses are traded off within it to get overall value

Have put down how i think SISU might try to get out of this mess its about time others put down how they think SISU will or can get out of it given what we know. Because how they exit is the crux of the matter not the CCFC rent in my opinion

I accept some might think it is "operation premiership" ...... some seem to think the rent at £170k will make all the difference. So come on then put "yourself" (open invite to all) in JS's position and how would you plan your exit strategy, what gets your investors some of their money back. It is only opinions after all - including much of what I put down

Put all the rent money on black at the casino.

Otis · Dec 13, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
Put all the rent money on black at the casino.

What would Peter Herbert have to say about that?

skyblueman · Dec 13, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
Put all the rent money on black at the casino.

Ridiculous...... red obviously

dongonzalos · Dec 13, 2012

When the council and ACL etc.... Negotiate with TF and JS.

Who are they actually negotiating with.

Those who say SISU can't afford anymore the club will become insolvent.

Please can you tell me the names and financial details of those people who have entrusted their money to SISU.

Also can you tell me what those people are prepared to do in order to attempt to get their money back.

I think if ACL made massive concessions then in the long run we discovered there was in fact a lot of money behind SISU. People would then say ACL were amateursish in their business negotiations.

Just like when SISU demanded to know who was behind the Hoff deal. ACL and the council should discover who is bankrolling SISU.

They should sign a confidentiality agreement, then they would really know what they are dealing with.

Otis · Dec 13, 2012

I reckon Sisu is Torch.

torchomatic · Dec 13, 2012

It's obvious those who don't agree with the majority are, so right again.

Otis said:
I reckon Sisu is Torch.

dongonzalos · Dec 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
It's obvious those who don't agree with the majority are, so right again.

Torch are you broke or not

torchomatic · Dec 13, 2012

I don't know. I haven't told myself yet. I have a confidentiality agreement with myself. If I break it, then I will take myself to court. I've said too much as it is...

dongonzalos said:
Torch are you broke or not

dongonzalos · Dec 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
I don't know. I haven't told myself yet. I have a confidentiality agreement with myself. If I break it, then I will take myself to court. I've said too much as it is...

Are we ever going to find out who is really behind the torch. Why don't the CET do a bit of real investigating for once

torchomatic · Dec 13, 2012

Phew...should be OK then if the CET are investigating.

"Scoop!! The Coventry Telegraph understands that the mysterious Torchomatic's name begins with the letter T. This letter is also used in the word Toast and Tesco. The Telegraph understands that this letter is not in the word Zoo. More news as we get it. Keep 'em peeled Sky Blues fans!"

dongonzalos said:
Are we ever going to find out who is really behind the torch. Why don't the CET do a bit of real investigating for once

dongonzalos · Dec 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
Phew...should be OK then if the CET are investigating.

"Scoop!! The Coventry Telegraph understands that the mysterious Torchomatic's name begins with the letter T. This letter is also used in the word Toast and Tesco. The Telegraph understand that this letter is not in the word Zoo. More news as we get it. Keep 'em peeled Sky Blues fans!"

Very good

lordsummerisle · Dec 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
It's obvious those who don't agree with the majority are, so right again.

to be fair though, a few years ago you were very much in the majority.

torchomatic · Dec 13, 2012

true, lord.

DazzleTommyDazzle · Dec 13, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
to be fair though, a few years ago you were very much in the majority.

Don't you think that it's reasonable for people to form (and dare I even say change) their opinion, based on the actions of the object of that opinion?

(I appreciate that you haven't explicitly criticised people for moving from a supportive to a critical opinion of SISU, but I don't think I'm being too rash to say that I think it's implied).

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 13, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
but think about it, what would your aim be to get out of a £40m black hole?

Possible scenario...

SiSU learn from mistakes, or want to have 1 last 'pop at it'. their aim when they took over was to het to the prem, what is to say that isn't th case now? You get c. 40m just in TV money and other sponsorship deals, far more TV money and furthermore, say we get promoted via playoffs twice, you get 90m in championship (then whatever L1's playoffs money is), and the club would be able to purchase the RICOH.

IMO, only way SISU get RICOH (100%) is to get to the prem.

Dear reader, I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS THEIR AIMS/INTENTIONS, NOR AM I SAYING THEY HAVE LEARNT FROM THEIR INTENTIONS etc.

Just proposing a scenario as our OSB did. As you can see, lot more money opinvolved in my scenario.

Godiva · Dec 13, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
Not going to put figures on the table Godiva, for one thing I am not a valuer and for another it was only a scenario. Not saying they get all their money back btw - this is a part of a bigger fund and profits or losses are traded off within it to get overall value

Have put down how i think SISU might try to get out of this mess its about time others put down how they think SISU will or can get out of it given what we know. Because how they exit is the crux of the matter not the CCFC rent in my opinion

I accept some might think it is "operation premiership" ...... some seem to think the rent at £170k will make all the difference. So come on then put "yourself" (open invite to all) in JS's position and how would you plan your exit strategy, what gets your investors some of their money back. It is only opinions after all - including much of what I put down

I personally can't see how ACL can earn them (their investors) anything close to the £40m+ injected so far.
First of all, the lease is mortgaged around £15m and any bid lower than that would be countered by Yorkshire bank.
When you look at the business and take away £1m (ccfc rent) it looks like normal profit (excluding 2012 Olympics) are turned from a yearly plus at around £400k to a yearly loss around £600k. Even with an improved business model it will be hard to make a profit and thus hard to find a buyer. There may be twists and turns outside my limited viewpoint, but I fail to see how ACL can put much more than a tiny bandage on the arterial wound the £40m+ investments really is.

In the summer TF said all the sisu loans was (being) converted into equity. This makes perfect sense if sisu have realized the investors will never get back the full amount. If they have done this (no evidence yet, mind you! and it probably won't happen until the new rent is settled) it can only mean the funds have written down the loans.
It also mean a sale of the club is a simple matter of transfering shares for money. No need to negotiate a discount on outside loans. No need for an administrator. Keep it simple.

And - what if (!) - sisu in this proces have obtained a healthy portion of those shares themself? Then sisu have an excellent exit position when the club has finally cut its cloth to fit and produce a small profit. Debt free and running in black!
At that point - and maybe in only a couple of years - they will be able to walk away with a nice little pension. They have never put in money themself, so holding shares and selling them on will be pure profit.

This 'theory' is not as creative or impressive as yours, but it has one element I think gives it a little bit of credability: It provide a personal gain for sisu. Not their clients.

lordsummerisle · Dec 13, 2012

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
Don't you think that it's reasonable for people to form (and dare I even say change) their opinion, based on the actions of the object of that opinion?

(I appreciate that you haven't explicitly criticised people for moving from a supportive to a critical opinion of SISU, but I don't think I'm being too rash to say that I think it's implied).

Have no problem with that at all, and at least Torch has been quite consistent.

Some of the more extreme pro-Sisu people, who dismissed anybody with any concerns about them were very in your face, and have become some of the most virulent and emotional anti-Sisu people now, often thinking that Ranson is some sort of saviour who was turned over, so they were kind of in the right really.

Considered arguments from either side are fine, but don't always get them, and the ones with the most excessive pro and anti Sisu views have often been one and the same!

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