The Great What If? (1 Viewer)

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 16, 2018

Apologies if *this* is too soon as well, but it's based on this quote by Sillett in the Coventry Telegraph:

John Sillett said:
I had a special relationship with Cyrille. He was the first player I would call in to talk to regarding anything in the team, whether it be problems or good things, because he was so intelligent and had so many good ideas about football and the way to play it. He was definitely a tactician and a philosopher of the game.

Now of course the original plan was for Peake and Regis to be groomed as Sillett's successors. That went out the window when Sillett was sacked, Butcher was appointed, and Peake and Regis found themselves out the club.

I've often wondered how things would have turned out if they'd taken over. Could we have built continuity, and built a proper club? In the past I've always thought this was our big missed opportunity. But today... I start to wonder if maybe we're blessed that that didn't happen. Instead of the inevitable failure that most managers suffer, we get to remember the joy, the fun, the excitement of watching a great player, unsullied by anything else.

Maybe that's more important, in the end?

fernandopartridge · Jan 16, 2018

Was the appointment of Butcher the first time the club had decided that they needed a high profile name regardless of merits?

In retrospect, it appears a terrible decision. Butcher brought about the break up of a relatively successful and stable team in the late 80s which lead to a relegation battle dominated 90s.

Captain Dart · Jan 16, 2018

Never look back is my motto work with what you have, anything else is merely dreaming.

Suffolk sky blues · Jan 16, 2018

Different world now.look at sisu.

rupert_bear · Jan 16, 2018

Was a terrible decision by the then chairman Pointon, Sillett’s days as manager were coming to an end and a. DreamTeam scenario of Regis and Peake could have worked. Butchers aim when he came in was simply to split the cup final crop up. I would love to know how much those Butcher years cost the club but we seemed skint for ever afterwards, despite being around at the birth of the Premier League

NortonSkyBlue · Jan 16, 2018

NW brings up a point here which was a burning sore for me in the early nineties.
When Sillett was removed it was done without any class for someone who had given such great service to the club and deserved better.
The squad were used to Sillett and perhaps the board felt a new voice and direction was needed?
Peake and Regis may have given the team a too similar message and maybe a new direction was required. Who knows?
When it was announced that Butcher was coming I felt that they had gone for player who was a winner and a respected international but had no experience at all as a manager and I couldn't see it working at all. It was a stupid decision with no foundation.
In getting rid of the two good players and their knowledge of the club, it was the actions of a man who lacked confidence in himself and respect for others who had served us so well.
It was a strange time, Villa had Dr Venglos, Man City had Peter Reid as player manager and Chelsea had Ian Porterfield, it was the pre premier league era and it was a poor period that's for sure! Maybe the lunatics had taken over the asylum?
We know now that Butcher was a failure but I felt he should have used the knowledge of Peake and Regis at least until he was established and have some continuity at the club.
When Cyrille scored for Villa in the last game of the season I felt that was the goal that relegated us, fortunately Luton lost a half time lead to already relegated Notts County so it wasn't fatal but it was a self inflicted wound.
Peake and Cyrille could have worked, who knows? but what we do know is that Butcher didn't and it was one of those spells where something didn't feel right at the club for a long time, it lost its soul.
Players like Kevin Gallacher and Stewart Robson were good players and a young Peter Ndlovu and David Smith were coming through nicely but we lacked the essence of the club and Peake and Regis would have provided that and guided the young players with their vast experience.
It just didn't feel right.

Offhegoes · Jan 16, 2018

Butcher also got rid of Kilcline, who went on to play rather well for Swindon & Newcastle. Killer would of been a better option than Andy Pearce who Butcher signed in 1991. Peter Billing was already around under Sillett and I always quite liked him.
As I recall Butcher's first 3/4 season in charge wasn't too bad. He moved Gallacher to a central striker role, and we ended the season quite strongly. However, in the summer he let Regis, Peake & Kilcline go, and the 1991/92 season was horrible. Butcher was gone by January, and then we had to endure Don Howe. I remember the 5 goalless draws in a row (most of which were at home) and we were SO lucky not to go down that season.

ccfcway · Jan 16, 2018

Captain Dart said:
Never look back is my motto

Mine is “never say never”

Which makes it very difficult to say my motto

skybluesam66 · Jan 16, 2018

Offhegoes said:
Butcher also got rid of Kilcline, who went on to play rather well for Swindon & Newcastle. Killer would of been a better option than Andy Pearce who Butcher signed in 1991. Peter Billing was already around under Sillett and I always quite liked him.
As I recall Butcher's first 3/4 season in charge wasn't too bad. He moved Gallacher to a central striker role, and we ended the season quite strongly. However, in the summer he let Regis, Peake & Kilcline go, and the 1991/92 season was horrible. Butcher was gone by January, and then we had to endure Don Howe. I remember the 5 goalless draws in a row (most of which were at home) and we were SO lucky not to go down that season.

just looked back at that on wiki

1. it was 4 in a row not 5
2. 2 of the 3 home games were liverpool and united

yes it was horrible at the time, but looking at those stats...

however we did only score 7 in the last 12 (3 in 1 game which we still lost) - and that last day at Villa park , when a certain Cyrille Regis scored against us in the 1st minute

fernandopartridge · Jan 16, 2018

riyadhskyblue said:
NW brings up a point here which was a burning sore for me in the early nineties.
When Sillett was removed it was done without any class for someone who had given such great service to the club and deserved better.
The squad were used to Sillett and perhaps the board felt a new voice and direction was needed?
Peake and Regis may have given the team a too similar message and maybe a new direction was required. Who knows?
When it was announced that Butcher was coming I felt that they had gone for player who was a winner and a respected international but had no experience at all as a manager and I couldn't see it working at all. It was a stupid decision with no foundation.
In getting rid of the two good players and their knowledge of the club, it was the actions of a man who lacked confidence in himself and respect for others who had served us so well.
It was a strange time, Villa had Dr Venglos, Man City had Peter Reid as player manager and Chelsea had Ian Porterfield, it was the pre premier league era and it was a poor period that's for sure! Maybe the lunatics had taken over the asylum?
We know now that Butcher was a failure but I felt he should have used the knowledge of Peake and Regis at least until he was established and have some continuity at the club.
When Cyrille scored for Villa in the last game of the season I felt that was the goal that relegated us, fortunately Luton lost a half time lead to already relegated Notts County so it wasn't fatal but it was a self inflicted wound.
Peake and Cyrille could have worked, who knows? but what we do know is that Butcher didn't and it was one of those spells where something didn't feel right at the club for a long time, it lost its soul.
Players like Kevin Gallacher and Stewart Robson were good players and a young Peter Ndlovu and David Smith were coming through nicely but we lacked the essence of the club and Peake and Regis would have provided that and guided the young players with their vast experience.
It just didn't feel right.

Smacks of huge insecurity on the part of Sillett, getting rid of influential experienced players who could undermine him. Considering that Killer, Regis and Peake went on to play at a decent level for another few years, Butcher himself was finished.

Offhegoes · Jan 16, 2018

Yes correct, my mind was a bit fuzzy, being 25 years ago. It was still a horrible season, that actually got worse when Butcher left and Howe took over. Thank god for Bobby Gould and Phil Neal the next season.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 16, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
Smacks of huge insecurity on the part of Sillett, getting rid of influential experienced players who could undermine him. Considering that Killer, Regis and Peake went on to play at a decent level for another few years, Butcher himself was finished.

Yup. tbf there was an argument that the squad needed refurbishing as it was starting to get old, and tbf Butcher wasn't a bad judge of a player. Atherton was a perfecly decent replacement for Peake, after all, and Furlong had a decent career once he left us, considering where we picked him up from. Maybe a missed chance for Furlong too, who could have benefitted immensely by having Regis about to learn his trade from.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 16, 2018

Offhegoes said:
Yes correct, my mind was a bit fuzzy, being 25 years ago. It was still a horrible season, that actually got worse when Butcher left and Howe took over. Thank god for Bobby Gould and Phil Neal the next season.

Yup, the end of the season was dire. Agree, it seemed like thousands of goalless draws... with a 4-3 defeat to Spurs thrown into it just for confusion!

Terry Gibson's perm · Jan 16, 2018

Don Howe they were horrible days

Grendel · Jan 16, 2018

Didn’t he actually try and recruit Souness and got Butcher by default?

ccfcway · Jan 16, 2018

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Don Howe they were horrible days

bloody home draws against man utd and Liverpool !

yer, we lost to Exeter this weekend.......

Grendel · Jan 16, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
Was the appointment of Butcher the first time the club had decided that they needed a high profile name regardless of merits?

In retrospect, it appears a terrible decision. Butcher brought about the break up of a relatively successful and stable team in the late 80s which lead to a relegation battle dominated 90s.

It’s worth noting that Sillett was on borrowed time with many supporters. We got hammered by Liverpool the final game of the season before he was sacked and he received a lot of abuse when the team did the end of season walk around.

Sillett was a great manager and far shrewder than he wanted to admit - for some reason he wanted to thrive on a jocular image. Even if his time had done as manager the club should have given him a director role to oversee things. He’s the best manager I’ve seen here

Without him (as Regis acknowledged) Cyrille would have been a flop. He saw him as the talisman and played around him. Tha absurd Gould almost ruined him with his clueless tactics.

ccfcway · Jan 16, 2018

ohh, new development Nick, shows you when ignored posters post a message. Nice touch

EDIT - (and now they have deleted it)

fernandopartridge · Jan 16, 2018

ccfcway said:
bloody home draws against man utd and Liverpool !

yer, we lost to Exeter this weekend.......

It's all relative. We're a league 2 team playing other league 2 teams. We were a top flight team playing other top flight teams. I personally find losing equally upsetting whether it be in this league or the top flight.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Terry Gibson's perm · Jan 16, 2018

ccfcway said:
bloody home draws against man utd and Liverpool !

yer, we lost to Exeter this weekend.......

Awful football to watch though

ccfcway · Jan 16, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
It's all relative. We're a league 2 team playing other league 2 teams. We were a top flight team playing other top flight teams. I personally find losing equally upsetting whether it be in this league or the top flight.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

each to their own. staying in the top flight was huge to me. I get upset now for about 10 mins when we lose

It used to ruin my entire weekend.

ccfcway · Jan 16, 2018

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Awful football to watch though

As many games this season have been !

stevefloyd · Jan 16, 2018

Don Howe he got the job

ccfcway · Jan 16, 2018

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Awful football to watch though

We drew 4 games 0-0 in a row including Man Utd and Liverpool, dramatically staying in top flight by 2 points...

2 seasons ago after xmas we lost 7 out of 9 in League One with Mowbray and fell apart....

I know what I would rather !

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 16, 2018

Grendel said:
Didn’t he actually try and recruit Souness and got Butcher by default?

We tried to get Souness in as player coach when Don Mackay was manager. Think he was maybe lined up as future manager then, too, when Mackay went.

Wasn't Yorath also first choice when Sillett got the gig?

And yes, I remember a period of (relative!) success had made us maybe complacent as fans, where Sillett wasn't universally popular anymore. Maybe that also stopped the succession, as it would have been seen as more same old same old? It's a bit like Curbishley at Charlton, mind, sometimes it's a case of be careful what you wish for when trying to go to the next level.

NortonSkyBlue · Jan 16, 2018

Deleted member 5849 said:
We tried to get Souness in as player coach when Don Mackay was manager. Think he was maybe lined up as future manager then, too, when Mackay went.

Wasn't Yorath also first choice when Sillett got the gig?

And yes, I remember a period of (relative!) success had made us maybe complacent as fans, where Sillett wasn't universally popular anymore. Maybe that also stopped the succession, as it would have been seen as more same old same old? It's a bit like Curbishley at Charlton, mind, sometimes it's a case of be careful what you wish for when trying to go to the next level.

Yes agree that Sillett's popularity was starting to wane, especially after Sutton and Northampton debacles but it must be said that we went third the week after Sutton defeat by beating Norwich on their ground and by the beginning of March we were third the table after beating Arsenal albeit with others having games in hand.
Can you imagine Coventry City were in the top three so late in the season and Arsenal went on to win the title?
Complacency did come in to it and so did Silletts age, younger than I am now when he left, but what were the board thinking?
They should have kept him involved, nurtured his successor and handled a transition with dignity.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 16, 2018

riyadhskyblue said:
Yes agree that Sillett's popularity was starting to wane, especially after Sutton and Northampton debacles but it must be said that we went third the week after Sutton defeat by beating Norwich on their ground and by the beginning of March we were third the table after beating Arsenal albeit with others having games in hand.
Can you imagine Coventry City were in the top three so late in the season and Arsenal went on to win the title?
Complacency did come in to it and so did Silletts age, younger than I am now when he left, but what were the board thinking?
They should have kept him involved, nurtured his successor and handled a transition with dignity.

Yep. Am convinced that season if European football was on offer we'd have finished a lot stronger than we did. It was as much the fact there was nothing to play for that saw us slide as we just seemed to give up.

What Sillett's time did give us was the time to actually plan in advance... which we did, and then we threw the plans out!

skyblue025 · Jan 17, 2018

Butcher wanted to keep Cyrille but had his budget cut and had to sack his best mate Mick Mills as his assistant manager. He offered Cyrille a contract but the Vile more than doubled Cyrille's wages so he left. Butcher made our worst ever signing in Paul Edwards. He made Haynes look like Kenny Sanson.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 17, 2018

skyblue025 said:
Butcher made our worst ever signing in Paul Edwards.

That was Sillett.

Irish Sky Blue · Jan 17, 2018

skyblue025 said:
Butcher wanted to keep Cyrille but had his budget cut and had to sack his best mate Mick Mills as his assistant manager. He offered Cyrille a contract but the Vile more than doubled Cyrille's wages so he left. Butcher made our worst ever signing in Paul Edwards. He made Haynes look like Kenny Sanson.

As I remember it, Cyrille wanted to stay and finish his career here but Butcher had made his mind up months before the end of the season, Robert Rosario was to be his centre forward and that there was no place for Regis. I don’t think Villa came in for Regis until after the season had finished and he was effectively a free agent.

Adge · Jan 17, 2018

Not sure if people know this but Cyrille actually spoke to Big Ron when Ron was at Man Utd and Ron said “I’ll sign you”. This coincided with Cyrille’s initial downturn in form when he first arrived at Coventry.
It was doing the rounds that Man Utd were after “Coventry’s” striker and when Cyrille heard that he thought he was to be reunited with Big Ron, but Terry Gibson was who they signed from us instead.
Years later when Cyrille was stupidly let go by us, Big Ron was then at Villa as we know. Cyrille went to Villa and was greeted by Big Ron saying “I told you I’d sign you!”
Big Ron told us that one and I think Cyrille refers to it in his book aswell.:emoji_smiley:

skyblue025 · Jan 18, 2018

Irish Sky Blue said:
As I remember it, Cyrille wanted to stay and finish his career here but Butcher had made his mind up months before the end of the season, Robert Rosario was to be his centre forward and that there was no place for Regis. I don’t think Villa came in for Regis until after the season had finished and he was effectively a free agent.

I had it straight from the horses mouth years later talking to Butcher when he was managing Brentford. The Vile more than doubled Cyrille's wages to go there and City couldn't compete. Very genuine bloke Butcher when I was talking to him. He had been invited to join the ex players association but didn't think he would be welcomed back. Said the biggest mistake he made was trying to play on after picking up a knee injury in first few games. Wished he had packed in playing and just been a manager.

singers_pore · Jan 18, 2018

Adge said:
Not sure if people know this but Cyrille actually spoke to Big Ron when Ron was at Man Utd and Ron said “I’ll sign you”. This coincided with Cyrille’s initial downturn in form when he first arrived at Coventry.
It was doing the rounds that Man Utd were after “Coventry’s” striker and when Cyrille heard that he thought he was to be reunited with Big Ron, but Terry Gibson was who they signed from us instead.
Years later when Cyrille was stupidly let go by us, Big Ron was then at Villa as we know. Cyrille went to Villa and was greeted by Big Ron saying “I told you I’d sign you!”
Big Ron told us that one and I think Cyrille refers to it in his book aswell.:emoji_smiley:

Makes sense. I heard Cyrille give a talk at Warwick Uni in 1990 on behalf of the Christian Union after Cyrille became a godder. He said that joining Coventry was the biggest disappointment of his career as he had been hoping to go to a big club like ManU.

ovduk78 · Jan 18, 2018

Wasn't there an issue where we had Butcher on a player/manager contract and paid him for both. When he had to retire from playing after about 5 games Pointon wanted to renegotiate his contract to be just a manager which reduced his wages and Butcher wasn't happy. I am not sure of timescale and whether this was ever resolved and if it helped contribute to his eventual sacking

singers_pore · Jan 18, 2018

ovduk78 said:
Wasn't there an issue where we had Butcher on a player/manager contract and paid him for both. When he had to retire from playing after about 5 games Pointon wanted to renegotiate his contract to be just a manager which reduced his wages and Butcher wasn't happy. I am not sure of timescale and whether this was ever resolved and if it helped contribute to his eventual sacking

That's right. And he even took the club to court over his payment of wages as a player.

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