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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (10 Viewers)

  • Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
  • Start date Jun 8, 2016
Forums New posts

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
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D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,476
Grendel said:
Yep I’ve read it.
Click to expand...
In which case, you will know that what I said is correct.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,477
Deleted member 5849 said:
In which case, you will know that what I said is correct.
Click to expand...

No it isn’t. Blair made specific remarks about a referendum - he only chose to backtrack on those commitments a year later
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,478
And of course the heir to the creature was no better

David Cameron admits Lisbon treaty referendum campaign is over
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,479
Grendel said:
And of course the heir to the creature was no better

David Cameron admits Lisbon treaty referendum campaign is over
Click to expand...

Who’d have been your ideal PM then?
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,480
I see May is due to make a statement, I reckon it’ll be a U turn about one of her red lines.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,481
tisza said:
This is where it finds itself in conflict. Few states want (or indeed could sell to their electorates) much further integration (certainly beyond tinance & trade) or surrendering of powers but this is what Brussels has increasingly been asking for.
The push for an EU army, for example, already an issue raising eyebrows when most are already part of Nato. Who wants to finance an armed force, continue NATO spending requirements whilst knowing any major conflict in mainland Europe (ostensibly against the Russians) is going to be heavily reliant on American help.
Centralized Eurozone budgets another cause for concern amongst many smaller states that use the Euro or aspire to adopt it.
One of the reasons there were originally 2 sites for European Parliament was to prevent the idea of a centralization of power.
Biggest growth in Brussels is the number of enforcement agencies for EU law and the powers they wield without actually being voted for. Most European leaders want a shift in power at least back towards the European council.
Even Junckers admitted , after the Cameron talks and again after the referendum, the balance had swung too far towards Brussels and needed to be addressed quickly.
May's elections will be an interesting one for 2 reasons in particular - the respective turnouts and how the many populist parties perform.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree with some points. Just not quite sure why you separate the Council from the EU. The council is the power of the EU. Before, people were wanting to move more power to the parliament as it would give the voters more direct power.

Arguments on both sides.

The EU army is now basically an EU defence force with EU countries cooperating with each other to get economies of scale. Most countries have agreed to this cooperation. Ireland, for example, is in for now, but has said it will not necessarily commit to further integration. The idea is not to create another army, but to merge existing forces as a support for NATO, and to cooperate on arms manufacture and purchasing. BoJo said the UK would be a „buttress“, not a member.

I wouldn’t be relying on the US too much long term.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,482
Grendel said:
No it isn’t. Blair made specific remarks about a referendum - he only chose to backtrack on those commitments a year later
Click to expand...
Yes it is. Read the article you linked!
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,483
Deleted member 5849 said:
Yes it is. Read the article you linked!
Click to expand...

I have clearly read it
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,484
Is this the next extension that takes us past the EU elections?

May to ask EU for Brexit extension

Looks like Brexit isn't going to happen more every day.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,485
Just been announced on C4 news Corbyn has apparently agreed to meet with May.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,486
skybluetony176 said:
Just been announced on C4 news Corbyn has apparently agreed to meet with May.
Click to expand...

Fucking idiot! It's a trap!
 
Reactions: Sick Boy and martcov

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,487
clint van damme said:
Fucking idiot! It's a trap!
Click to expand...

That’s my gut feeling. Tory leavers blame Tory remainers and Tory remainers are now lining up the opposition to take that blame.

Rees Mogg is spitting feathers apparently at the prospect of the Tories working with “socialists”. Talk of a break in the Tories with ERG leading the charge.
 
Reactions: martcov

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,488
clint van damme said:
Fucking idiot! It's a trap!
Click to expand...
Was he supposed to say he wasn't interested in putting his views over?
 
Reactions: Deleted member 5849

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,489
Astute said:
Was he supposed to say he wasn't interested in putting his views over?
Click to expand...

He should find a way of not walking in to it.
She's going to stitch him up.
She knows she can't find a solution, she's looking for a scapegoat.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy and martcov

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,490
clint van damme said:
He should find a way of not walking in to it.
She's going to stitch him up.
She knows she can't find a solution, she's looking for a scapegoat.
Click to expand...
I would like to say people aren't stupid enough to fall for it but evidence would suggest they are.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 2, 2019
  • #34,491
clint van damme said:
Fucking idiot! It's a trap!
Click to expand...

I agree - but remember when everyone had a meltdown about him not meeting her.... including lots on here.
 
Reactions: Deleted member 5849, Sick Boy and martcov

dutchman

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,492
Astute said:
Was he supposed to say he wasn't interested in putting his views over?
Click to expand...

'His views' or the views of his union-boss paymasters?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,493
Some people on here make me laugh.

So we have to do something to stop a disaster from happening. Corbyn comes out with how we must keep close ties. May is said to be useless. Some say the majority is behind remaining. May needs the backing of some of the Labour party to get some kind of deal together otherwise the risk of leaving without a deal becomes substantial.

But don't do it Jeremy. It might be a stitch up.

If Jeremy wants a chance to become PM this is it as long as what some say is right. If they put a plan together he would have to agree with it. They would put it to both of their parties. And if agreeable it would fly through parliament.

Some MP's are giving up their careers in politics with their party for what they see is right. But Corbyn shouldn't take a gamble that could make him PM. And we all know it is what he wants more than anything else.
 
Reactions: Ian1779

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,494
dutchman said:
'His views' or the views of his union-boss paymasters?
Click to expand...
I am a union man. It isn't like you seem to think. Unions are anti Tory because Tories are anti union. We campaign for Labour as Labour stands for the working man. And we campaign for Corbyn although many of us know that Corbyn isn't the best person for the job. But he is the Labour leader.

Union money doesn't go into helping the Labour party to get favours. It is to try and get a party into power that helps the man on the street and not those who are rich.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete, Deleted member 5849, Ian1779 and 2 others

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,495
Astute said:
I am a union man. It isn't like you seem to think. Unions are anti Tory because Tories are anti union. We campaign for Labour as Labour stands for the working man. And we campaign for Corbyn although many of us know that Corbyn isn't the best person for the job. But he is the Labour leader.

Union money doesn't go into helping the Labour party to get favours. It is to try and get a party into power that helps the man on the street and not those who are rich.
Click to expand...

I generally find that people who slate unions and protests are quite happy to indulge in all the benefits they've gained for the working man over the years.
 
Reactions: chiefdave, Astute, Sky Blue Pete and 5 others
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,496
Astute said:
I am a union man. It isn't like you seem to think. Unions are anti Tory because Tories are anti union. We campaign for Labour as Labour stands for the working man. And we campaign for Corbyn although many of us know that Corbyn isn't the best person for the job. But he is the Labour leader.

Union money doesn't go into helping the Labour party to get favours. It is to try and get a party into power that helps the man on the street and not those who are rich.
Click to expand...

If we believe the media.. we have the 5. biggest economy in the world and virtually no one is unemployed under this government. So everything must be Honky Dory. It isn’t.

For decades the right wing press has been blaming labour and/or the EU for the problems of working people.

The biggest problem from what I can see viewing from outside, is wealth distribution. The demise of industry with relatively well paid blue collar jobs, to be replaced by an increase in low paid jobs in Pubs/ Cafés, Hotels, Restaurants, agriculture etc..Together with the wage caps in public services, this has separated millions of people from people in more lucrative sectors.

Something has to give.

Instead of putting money into poorer regions and funding and reforming job training/ education to meet the changes in employment, the right wing has seen the chance to lead us on the current path of leaving the evil EU.

They offer the carrot of massive trade deals to bring back Jobs, coupled with a return to a great powerful nation. Playing on words like „independence“, whilst ignoring our actual independence and the fact that we will have a weakened status by detaching ourselves from a powerful trading block.

We need Labour now. We need someone to oppose what is happening and swing the pendulum back in the direction of helping rebuild areas that have declined. The aim should that of creating a more balanced country. We won’t get that by leaving the EU, which is why we don’t need Corbyn as leader.

So long as the ERG are holding the government to ransom to obtain openings for USA agriculture and industry, and emerging markets which will create wealth for the hedge funds and companies importing from the USA and emerging markets, and for people holding investments in these countries, the poorer sections will not be the priority. In fact there may be a switch to a more American libertarian policy which favours the better educated, more skilled and more flexible work force leaving the rest to accept whatever working conditions they are offered. Companies that cannot compete with the USA will go to the wall in trade deals designed to give the USA the upper hand.

There is so much to be done in the UK and parliament is lamed by a crazy right wing project called Brexit.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,497
martcov said:
We need Labour now. We need someone to oppose what is happening and swing the pendulum back in the direction of helping rebuild areas that have declined. The aim should that of creating a more balanced country. We won’t get that by leaving the EU, which is why we don’t need Corbyn as leader.
Click to expand...

You have to find a way to convince the people in these declining areas that if we don't go (or there is a much softer version of Brexit) that something is going to change for them. And it has to be a clear commitment where they can see a definitive improvement in their lives and that for their children in the future. The Labour manifesto is in a better place to deliver that than any other party.

What you can't do is take the PV approach; patronise them, tell them they didn't know what they voted for, and expect them to jump in line with London-centric ideology that a) won't improve anything for them and b) has no understanding for their concerns and insecurities. Trotting out the 'you were lied to' or 'Leave cheated' is not a compelling enough reason for them to change.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy, Astute and Ashdown
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,498
Astute said:
Was he supposed to say he wasn't interested in putting his views over?
Click to expand...
She's not renegotiating the withdrawal agreement anyway, so he's got a way out.
 
Reactions: Astute
A

Ashdown

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,499
Astute said:
I am a union man. It isn't like you seem to think. Unions are anti Tory because Tories are anti union. We campaign for Labour as Labour stands for the working man. And we campaign for Corbyn although many of us know that Corbyn isn't the best person for the job. But he is the Labour leader.

Union money doesn't go into helping the Labour party to get favours. It is to try and get a party into power that helps the man on the street and not those who are rich.
Click to expand...
Except, when in power of course they spunk away money like it's going out of fashion, open the floodgates that will ultimately be the downfall of this nation and help themselves to everything they can off the back of pretending to care for the British working man
 
Reactions: westcountry_skyblue
A

Ashdown

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,500
martcov said:
If we believe the media.. we have the 5. biggest economy in the world and virtually no one is unemployed under this government. So everything must be Honky Dory. It isn’t.

For decades the right wing press has been blaming labour and/or the EU for the problems of working people.

The biggest problem from what I can see viewing from outside, is wealth distribution. The demise of industry with relatively well paid blue collar jobs, to be replaced by an increase in low paid jobs in Pubs/ Cafés, Hotels, Restaurants, agriculture etc..Together with the wage caps in public services, this has separated millions of people from people in more lucrative sectors.

Something has to give.

Instead of putting money into poorer regions and funding and reforming job training/ education to meet the changes in employment, the right wing has seen the chance to lead us on the current path of leaving the evil EU.

They offer the carrot of massive trade deals to bring back Jobs, coupled with a return to a great powerful nation. Playing on words like „independence“, whilst ignoring our actual independence and the fact that we will have a weakened status by detaching ourselves from a powerful trading block.

We need Labour now. We need someone to oppose what is happening and swing the pendulum back in the direction of helping rebuild areas that have declined. The aim should that of creating a more balanced country. We won’t get that by leaving the EU, which is why we don’t need Corbyn as leader.

So long as the ERG are holding the government to ransom to obtain openings for USA agriculture and industry, and emerging markets which will create wealth for the hedge funds and companies importing from the USA and emerging markets, and for people holding investments in these countries, the poorer sections will not be the priority. In fact there may be a switch to a more American libertarian policy which favours the better educated, more skilled and more flexible work force leaving the rest to accept whatever working conditions they are offered. Companies that cannot compete with the USA will go to the wall in trade deals designed to give the USA the upper hand.

There is so much to be done in the UK and parliament is lamed by a crazy right wing project called Brexit.
Click to expand...
Until we can learn to work for a dollar an hour, I would suggest it won't make much difference who is in power. Globalization, in short China....have and continue to smash up quality employment all over the West
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,501
Ashdown said:
Except, when in power of course they spunk away money like it's going out of fashion, open the floodgates that will ultimately be the downfall of this nation and help themselves to everything they can off the back of pretending to care for the British working man
Click to expand...

How much do you think is being spunked up the wall because of Brexit? Thousands of civil servants, border staff and countless measures being taken. The true cost of Brexit preparation will come out years later. No one is going to open that can of worms until the Tories have it safely over the line.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,502
Ashdown said:
Until we can learn to work for a dollar an hour, I would suggest it won't make much difference who is in power. Globalization, in short China....have and continue to smash up quality employment all over the West
Click to expand...

Which is why we need to be in a trading bloc.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,503
Deleted member 5849 said:
She's not renegotiating the withdrawal agreement anyway, so he's got a way out.
Click to expand...

The EU aren’t renegotiating her deal again anyway. It has to be something totally different to May‘s red lines.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,504
Ian1779 said:
You have to find a way to convince the people in these declining areas that if we don't go (or there is a much softer version of Brexit) that something is going to change for them. And it has to be a clear commitment where they can see a definitive improvement in their lives and that for their children in the future. The Labour manifesto is in a better place to deliver that than any other party.

What you can't do is take the PV approach; patronise them, tell them they didn't know what they voted for, and expect them to jump in line with London-centric ideology that a) won't improve anything for them and b) has no understanding for their concerns and insecurities. Trotting out the 'you were lied to' or 'Leave cheated' is not a compelling enough reason for them to change.
Click to expand...

Yes, whilst it is the truth, they are hardly going to say, „yes we were lied to and didn’t realise it“.

That is why, although I don’t count myself as a labour supporter, I do see that things have moved too far to the capitalist world view. In my business, I would be better off when poverty was reduced and „the many“ had more spending money. The raising of the minimum wage costs me money, but I can raise prices as my customers have more spending money. If the very rich paid higher tax it wouldn’t reduce demand for my goods. More people in better paid jobs would increase demand.

If I lived in the UK, I probably would vote labour now, especially if they guaranteed a people’s vote on whatever Brexit turns out to be, versus remain.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,505
Ashdown said:
Except, when in power of course they spunk away money like it's going out of fashion, open the floodgates that will ultimately be the downfall of this nation and help themselves to everything they can off the back of pretending to care for the British working man
Click to expand...
We need more police officers on the streets. Will you get it with the Tories? Most probably will with Labour. But it costs money. How about the needy that have been denied by the Tories? Labour will most probably help. But it costs money. Tax will have to go up. But the Tories always cut tax. That is because they are for the rich and better off.

Personally I am better off with a Tory government. But I remember my roots. I know what it is like to be poor. I haven't suddenly become a Tory voter because I am better off now. I know Labour spends more. But that is mainly because of the vicious cuts brought in by the Tories. Labour always tries to do too much too quickly. But it is better than doing less than nothing about the situation.
 
Reactions: Ian1779

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,506
martcov said:
How much do you think is being spunked up the wall because of Brexit? Thousands of civil servants, border staff and countless measures being taken. The true cost of Brexit preparation will come out years later. No one is going to open that can of worms until the Tories have it safely over the line.
Click to expand...
Yet how much is spunked up the wall by the EU?

Remember when they said they could make savings to make up the shortfall in our contributions?
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,507
Astute said:
But it costs money.
Click to expand...
This is the key thing. It never ceases to amaze me (on all sides of the political coin) how many people expect good services, while at the same time expecting lower taxes.

Incompatible really. Either accept private and personal liabilities for things, or higher taxes.
 
Reactions: bezzer, Ian1779, Astute and 2 others
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,508
Astute said:
Yet how much is spunked up the wall by the EU?

Remember when they said they could make savings to make up the shortfall in our contributions?
Click to expand...
I never trust anybody who comes up with the vague 'efficiency savings' as a solution. That usually equals 'cuts'.
 
Reactions: martcov
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,509
Astute said:
Yet how much is spunked up the wall by the EU?

Remember when they said they could make savings to make up the shortfall in our contributions?
Click to expand...

I don’t know and I don’t see the relevance to the UK wasting a fortune on a mad project of self harm. Just saw that food prices have increased at the highest rate in 5 years. More crap from Brexit.
 
A

Ashdown

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2019
  • #34,510
Astute said:
We need more police officers on the streets. Will you get it with the Tories? Most probably will with Labour. But it costs money. How about the needy that have been denied by the Tories? Labour will most probably help. But it costs money. Tax will have to go up. But the Tories always cut tax. That is because they are for the rich and better off.

Personally I am better off with a Tory government. But I remember my roots. I know what it is like to be poor. I haven't suddenly become a Tory voter because I am better off now. I know Labour spends more. But that is mainly because of the vicious cuts brought in by the Tories. Labour always tries to do too much too quickly. But it is better than doing less than nothing about the situation.
Click to expand...
I agree with some of what you say but the government is only taking so much from all tax receipts......and that is with high employment at the moment..........but still it spends more than it takes. If we spend more now, it increases the debt and in the future that debt repayment will mean even less to spend for future governments. Whilst extreme poverty shouldn't be tolerated in a Western Nation like the UK, I do still think that many people need to start lowering their expectations for life. When I was younger in the 1970's/80's we never had a lot at all but then neither did our friends and friends parents as a rule so there wasn't the culture of envy we seem to have today...... a lot of which is spread around social media etc.
If there is a way of taxing the super rich, then I'm all for it but as we all know, they have the knack of tax avoidance under any government and seem to just get richer every year.
 
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