The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (10 Viewers)

RegTheDonk · Mar 31, 2019

So what you're effectively saying is we need people from the EU to do the lower/unskilled jobs. Sounds a bit like modern slavery but the gangmasters are the corporations.

Could you please explain the connection between Brexit and having a poor police/NHS/schools service? Surely these are skilled workers? If we need to get doctors, nurses, teachers etc from outside the EU, what is the problem with this?

Astute · Mar 31, 2019

westcountry_skyblue said:
Get our and deal with it we are all grown men the world won’t end and we don’t owe them anything.
Wish we’d grow some balls in our parliament !!!

When I was younger I had balls. I wouldn't take shit from anyone. I did what I wanted. The problem was things occasionally went wrong. As I got older I got wiser. I put more thought into my decisions. It isn't that I don't have balls these days. I just make better decisions.

I am not happy with the way the EU is run. They have proven themselves to be a bunch of untrustworthy people. They hold all the power when it should be held by the countries in the EU. But the problem is we are better off in the EU than out of it. It comes with many benefits. The benefits well outweigh any drawbacks.

Sick Boy · Mar 31, 2019

RegTheDonk said:
So what you're effectively saying is we need people from the EU to do the lower/unskilled jobs. Sounds a bit like modern slavery but the gangmasters are the corporations.

Could you please explain the connection between Brexit and having a poor police/NHS/schools service? Surely these are skilled workers? If we need to get doctors, nurses, teachers etc from outside the EU, what is the problem with this?

Modern slavery? Haha! There are laws that could be put in place to prevent companies from paying tip of wages that are comparative to the migrant’s country of origin, were these put in place? No.

Levels of migration are unlikely to go down if the economy remains successful, to the elite the whole thing has nothing to do with migration and improving the lives of the ordinary people.

Astute · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Those are the 3 most realistic because the EU have refused further negotiation. The deal suits them fine. I’d want another vote that gives Leave the best chance and haven’t argued for splitting it with 2 Leave options.

You’ve tried spinning this as me arguing for a 3 way vote a few times. Don’t worry-in 20 years time we can hold this whole exercise up as an example of why not to always listen to your elders.

So if I did try to spin it the way you say why don't you quote any post where I have said anything like it?

That is because I haven't. Then you come out with insults like a child in a playground. All I did was disagree with what you said. You said May's deal, no deal or remain. I said May's deal is about dead. No deal won't happen. Remain is a possibility. So how do you get to your diatribe from that?

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 31, 2019

westcountry_skyblue said:
Get out and deal with it we are all grown men the world won’t end and we don’t owe them anything.
Wish we’d grow some balls in our parliament !!!

Just bolllx. What’s your ideas and solutions. You and those like you in Parliament and the country are the reason for the mess. Solutions!!!! Growing balls is nonsense that’s just deriliction of duty. Issues and complexities don’t just resolve themselves saying give me what I want or I’ll cry. That’s a tantrum and immature.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 31, 2019

westcountry_skyblue said:
So how do you know we will be worse off?
Your not listening to the doom mongers are you?

Solutions

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

Astute said:
So if I did try to spin it the way you say why don't you quote any post where I have said anything like it?

That is because I haven't. Then you come out with insults like a child in a playground. All I did was disagree with what you said. You said May's deal, no deal or remain. I said May's deal is about dead. No deal won't happen. Remain is a possibility. So how do you get to your diatribe from that?

Because you never admit a mistake and just move the goalposts when proven wrong.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 31, 2019

Astute said:
When I was younger I had balls. I wouldn't take shit from anyone. I did what I wanted. The problem was things occasionally went wrong. As I got older I got wiser. I put more thought into my decisions. It isn't that I don't have balls these days. I just make better decisions.

I am not happy with the way the EU is run. They have proven themselves to be a bunch of untrustworthy people. They hold all the power when it should be held by the countries in the EU. But the problem is we are better off in the EU than out of it. It comes with many benefits. The benefits well outweigh any drawbacks.

Bang on

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

RegTheDonk said:
So what you're effectively saying is we need people from the EU to do the lower/unskilled jobs. Sounds a bit like modern slavery but the gangmasters are the corporations.

Could you please explain the connection between Brexit and having a poor police/NHS/schools service? Surely these are skilled workers? If we need to get doctors, nurses, teachers etc from outside the EU, what is the problem with this?

No what I’m saying is we wouldn’t rely so heavily on immigration to fill low paying and skilled jobs if a) our own citizens didn’t turn their noses up at low paid work and b) we took education seriously. The Tories haven’t used the EU laws available to them to curb immigration because it suits business to look the other way.

Voting to make it harder for skilled professionals to work here will obviously have a direct effect on the ability of the NHS and schools to recruit. There are already nowhere near enough teachers because of the well documented problems in the profession. Voting Tory compounds the problem since they believe the free market is the answer to all problems and will underfund both until they say ‘we need to privatise this to raise performance’.

Still, Rule Britannia

tisza · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
No what I’m saying is we wouldn’t rely so heavily on immigration to fill low paying and skilled jobs if a) our own citizens didn’t turn their noses up at low paid work and b) we took education seriously. The Tories haven’t used the EU laws available to them to curb immigration because it suits business to look the other way.

Voting to make it harder for skilled professionals to work here will obviously have a direct effect on the ability of the NHS and schools to recruit. There are already nowhere near enough teachers because of the well documented problems in the profession. Voting Tory compounds the problem since they believe the free market is the answer to all problems and will underfund both until they say ‘we need to privatise this to raise performance’.

Still, Rule Britannia

Europeans took over much of the lower paid gang labour-related employment from the Asian community - main difference being it was younger Europeans as opposed to older Asians that were doing the work particularly in the agricultural sector. gangmasters do tend to be of the same nationality as their "employees".
Thought current immigration rules already had exemptions for several sectors including nurses, teachers.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

tisza said:
Europeans took over much of the lower paid gang labour-related employment from the Asian community - main difference being it was younger Europeans as opposed to older Asians that were doing the work particularly in the agricultural sector. gangmasters do tend to be of the same nationality as their "employees".
Thought current immigration rules already had exemptions for several sectors including nurses, teachers.

The average Billy Brexit doesn’t think of exemptions but just wants very little or no immigration. Though it is known that education and health are losing workers to other countries like nobody’s business. For a country that has been propped up by immigrant labour for a good 70-80 years you’d think we’d stop telling them to GTFO

Grendel · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The average Billy Brexit doesn’t think of exemptions but just wants very little or no immigration. Though it is known that education and health are losing workers to other countries like nobody’s business. For a country that has been propped up by immigrant labour for a good 70-80 years you’d think we’d stop telling them to GTFO

The eu employment percentages within the health service and the education system is minimal

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

Grendel said:
The eu employment percentages within the health service and the education system is minimal

For all immigrants?

tisza · Mar 31, 2019

Grendel said:
The eu employment percentages within the health service and the education system is minimal

Think NHS % has dropped from 7.4% to 6.8%. Should be noted that newer member states are increasing incentives to retain their own nurses etc.
Far bigger numbers work in German health industry.
Main reason for inability to fill NHS vacancies (apparently 113,000) remains working conditions - and is the main cause of people quitting.
Education has around 5% EU employees.

tisza · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
For all immigrants?

about 12%.

What is appalling is that rather than address issues within the Health sector the current Govt 10 year plan is to "pillage" doctors and nurses from developing countries thus stripping them of key personnel where they are needed.

SIR ERNIE · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Yeah just break contracts and make ourselves as worse off as we can because RULE BRITANNIA

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The Sun will continue to blame foreigners/Labour/miscellaneous scroungers and you will lap it up while wanking into a Union Jack.

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I swear my allegiance to a flag representing a piece of rock I was born on at random and to a very rich lady who couldn’t give less of a shit about me.

Don’t take pride in stuff you haven’t done

Have you any idea how you sound posting that stuff?
I hear Venezuela's pleasant this time of year, I'll happily buy you a one way ticket if you can't afford one.

RegTheDonk · Mar 31, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Modern slavery? Haha! There are laws that could be put in place to prevent companies from paying tip of wages that are comparative to the migrant’s country of origin, were these put in place? No.

Levels of migration are unlikely to go down if the economy remains successful, to the elite the whole thing has nothing to do with migration and improving the lives of the ordinary people.

Glad the economy is successful. Two years ago, armaggedon was predicted.

No problem with peope coming here to work and live Sick Boy if there is a need and they pay their way. The rules just need to be the same for EU and non-EU, we can't make it easy for some and harder for others.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 31, 2019

tisza said:
Think NHS % has dropped from 7.4% to 6.8%. Should be noted that newer member states are increasing incentives to retain their own nurses etc.
Far bigger numbers work in German health industry.
Main reason for inability to fill NHS vacancies (apparently 113,000) remains working conditions - and is the main cause of people quitting.
Education has around 5% EU employees.

Careful facts aren’t allowed

RegTheDonk · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
No what I’m saying is we wouldn’t rely so heavily on immigration to fill low paying and skilled jobs if a) our own citizens didn’t turn their noses up at low paid work and b) we took education seriously. The Tories haven’t used the EU laws available to them to curb immigration because it suits business to look the other way.

Voting to make it harder for skilled professionals to work here will obviously have a direct effect on the ability of the NHS and schools to recruit. There are already nowhere near enough teachers because of the well documented problems in the profession. Voting Tory compounds the problem since they believe the free market is the answer to all problems and will underfund both until they say ‘we need to privatise this to raise performance’.

Still, Rule Britannia

We have to look at why our own lot turn their noses up. Maybe there are some who are able but work shy and are happy to let the state help them out. Maybe there actually is a decent education system in this country and we are turning out people who are qualified for something "better". Maybe if decent wages and career paths were offered, more would take those jobs negating the need to recruit from abroad.

If a free market is the answer, then let it be free across the board. Why pay billions into a club for the privilage of having their low skilled workers? Don't disadvantage non-EU citizens, allow them all to have a fair crack at the whip if indeed positions have to be desperately filled and we can't do it ourselves.

lol "rule Britannia. I could be Scottish you know

westcountry_skyblue · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I take the best case scenarios from leading Leave figures. They have now shifted to arguing that the hit to your pocket will only be temporary. Rees Mogg famously said we’ll start to get a dividend in 40-50 years. And if this is the best they can spin it as I take the reality to be worse.

With fewer skilled immigrants we will continue to have a shortage in the type of worker we need most. Because education isn’t valued by the Tories we never get close to bridging the gap with our own workers. Also because British people are too picky to work in McDonald’s and other similar jobs the departure of young or unskilled immigrants will leave them short too.

You will then complain that the NHS/schools/police are shit while you vote Tory and Brexit and not see the connection. The Sun will continue to blame foreigners/Labour/miscellaneous scroungers and you will lap it up while wanking into a Union Jack. And there are millions more like you who will do the exact same.

I love the Union Jack yes,Better than a hammer and sickle!

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I take the best case scenarios from leading Leave figures. They have now shifted to arguing that the hit to your pocket will only be temporary. Rees Mogg famously said we’ll start to get a dividend in 40-50 years. And if this is the best they can spin it as I take the reality to be worse.

With fewer skilled immigrants we will continue to have a shortage in the type of worker we need most. Because education isn’t valued by the Tories we never get close to bridging the gap with our own workers. Also because British people are too picky to work in McDonald’s and other similar jobs the departure of young or unskilled immigrants will leave them short too.

You will then complain that the NHS/schools/police are shit while you vote Tory and Brexit and not see the connection. The Sun will continue to blame foreigners/Labour/miscellaneous scroungers and you will lap it up while wanking into a Union Jack. And there are millions more like you who will do the exact same.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 31, 2019

tisza said:
about 12%.

What is appalling is that rather than address issues within the Health sector the current Govt 10 year plan is to "pillage" doctors and nurses from developing countries thus stripping them of key personnel where they are needed.

Until we get our heads around paying more taxes to fund things, it's always likely to be that way.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
Have you any idea how you sound posting that stuff?
I hear Venezuela's pleasant this time of year, I'll happily buy you a one way ticket if you can't afford one.

Venezuela, the go-to word for anyone on the right who can't come up with a point.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

westcountry_skyblue said:
I love the Union Jack yes,Better than a hammer and sickle!

'I was born on this side of the line on a map so I'm better!'

Grendel · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Venezuela, the go-to word for anyone on the right who can't come up with a point.

You are sounding like a spoiled child so really you deserve it.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

RegTheDonk said:
We have to look at why our own lot turn their noses up. Maybe there are some who are able but work shy and are happy to let the state help them out. Maybe there actually is a decent education system in this country and we are turning out people who are qualified for something "better". Maybe if decent wages and career paths were offered, more would take those jobs negating the need to recruit from abroad.

If a free market is the answer, then let it be free across the board. Why pay billions into a club for the privilage of having their low skilled workers? Don't disadvantage non-EU citizens, allow them all to have a fair crack at the whip if indeed positions have to be desperately filled and we can't do it ourselves.

lol "rule Britannia. I could be Scottish you know

State education in England is characterised by class sizes of 30+, limited teaching resources, and teachers who are

a) Underpaid
b) Overworked
c) Inexperienced because schools hire on the cheap and more senior teachers go private.

More able people tend to get ignored as most of the attention is devoted to getting the lowest common denominator to pass and behaviour is getting worse every year. Government doesn't give a fuck

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

Grendel said:
You are sounding like a spoiled child so really you deserve it.

Pot kettle black. Look through WSB's posts, they deserve all the sarcasm they get.

Grendel · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
State education in England is characterised by class sizes of 30+, limited teaching resources, and teachers who are

a) Underpaid
b) Overworked
c) Inexperienced because schools hire on the cheap and more senior teachers go private.

More able people tend to get ignored as most of the attention is devoted to getting the lowest common denominator to pass and behaviour is getting worse every year. Government doesn't give a fuck

It’s an argument for grammar education and private education to increase surely?

Given you’ve not to my knowledge attended a state school you have no actual experience regarding this do you?

Ashdown · Mar 31, 2019

I just heard a very good speech by Dr Alice Weidel , on the EU/ Brexit position.

ccfc92 · Mar 31, 2019

Petition: Leave the EU Without a deal on April 12th.

Not sure if this has been posted. But only launched yesterday I believe, nearly at the 100k mark.

Astute · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Because you never admit a mistake and just move the goalposts when proven wrong.

So more accusations and nothing shown what I am supposed to have said.

I don't know why I bother replying to you. All it does is stops any debate. So everyone will be better off if I ignore your constant accusations that never come with evidence.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 31, 2019

ccfc92 said:
Petition: Leave the EU Without a deal on April 12th.

Not sure if this has been posted. But only launched yesterday I believe, nearly at the 100k mark.

Any solutions for the problems this will cause ??? Or is it someone else’s problem??

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

Grendel said:
It’s an argument for grammar education and private education to increase surely?

Given you’ve not to my knowledge attended a state school you have no actual experience regarding this do you?

I taught in a state school last year and the missus continues to teach in one having done so for 3-4 years now. It's an argument for proper funding of state schools.

Grendel · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I taught in a state school last year and the missus continues to teach in one having done so for 3-4 years now. It's an argument for proper funding of state schools.

No it’s an argument of basic economics and the absurd belief that we need to put everyone through state health and education rather than create better private opportunities to lower the number of people into the system. Tax breaks should be offered to encourage private useage

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

Astute said:
So more accusations and nothing shown what I am supposed to have said.

I don't know why I bother replying to you. All it does is stops any debate. So everyone will be better off if I ignore your constant accusations that never come with evidence.

You've gone and said 'so you'd want 3 options in the referendum, that'd split the Leave vote', or words to that effect. Though we could also look through the sustained attack you kept up on another poster to go after him as a Nazi sympathiser and find many more unfortunate quotes. Where someone says the Nazis would have tried Churchill and you take that to mean he accuses Churchill of war crimes and wants to exonerate Nazi ones.

That's why I say your comprehension is bullshit and you come up with ridiculous straw men arguments. When one gets refuted you move the goalposts. It's happened all throughout the thread and I don't remember once you saying 'fair enough, I got the wrong end of the stick'.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

Grendel said:
No it’s an argument of basic economics and the absurd belief that we need to put everyone through state health and education rather than create better private opportunities to lower the number of people into the system. Tax breaks should be offered to encourage private useage

Grammar schools are state funded (taught in one a few years ago), and every class is 30+ with the same problem over resources as in state schools. The big difference is that teachers in those schools tend to be more experienced and subject specialists. Behaviour tends to be a lot better with children from the generally more affluent families who send them.

Never said that private health or education should be scrapped, but the quality of the state provision should be as high as possible for those who aren't wealthy enough to afford a private alternative. The Tory government's own research shows that building more grammar schools would entrench and deepen inequality, not narrow it.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (10 Viewers)

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