The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (6 Viewers)

SIR ERNIE · Mar 11, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Normal procedure for a Bunch of old men not elected to frustrate and criticize the biggest election result in history. They are not fit for purpose but carry on defending them.

We had a referendum where 34 million people took part in the biggest democratic exercise ever taken and leave won. Normal procedure, I know you don't like it but that's democracy.

There are plenty of powerful individuals, companies and institutions who will do all they can to make sure we remain because in most cases they have a vested personal interest in maintaining the status quo. They may well succeed in frustrating or delaying the process but ultimately they will fail because the people have spoken and they will not allow their decision to be ignored.

I agree that the behaviour of the Lords is indeed deplorable but they will not prevail, instead they will only succeed in highlighting the need to drastically reform their House.

ps: what a beautiful day here in England's green and pleasant land. Wouldn't want to be anywhere else, would you?

I

martcov · Mar 11, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
There are plenty of powerful individuals, companies and institutions who will do all they can to make sure we remain because in most cases they have a vested personal interest in maintaining the status quo. They may well succeed in frustrating or delaying the process but ultimately they will fail because the people have spoken and they will not allow their decision to be ignored.

I agree that the behaviour of the Lords is indeed deplorable but they will not prevail, instead they will only succeed in highlighting the need to drastically reform their House.

ps: what a beautiful day here in England's green and pleasant land. Wouldn't want to be anywhere else, would you?

I

A section of the people has voted - not "the people" which infers massive support in relation to those who voted remain...

Yes, England is beautiful, but that doesn't mean other places aren't.

dutchman · Mar 11, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
I see a few who havent accepted even on here the result.

They've yet to accept that Gordon Brown lost the 2010 election and the reasons why.

"Bigoted woman".

martcov · Mar 11, 2017

dutchman said:
They've yet to accept that Gordon Brown lost the 2010 election and the reasons why.

"Bigoted woman".

Who are they?

dutchman · Mar 11, 2017

martcov said:
Yes, England is beautiful, but that doesn't mean other places aren't.

I heard Naples is quite nice at this time of year...

martcov · Mar 11, 2017

dutchman said:
I heard Naples is quite nice at this time of year...

Well, I can only speak for the moment as I am in a restaurant, run by Romanian friends in Berlin. A nice mild evening. Nice soup as starter, lots of nice people as customers - several Romanians among them. Not worried about pick pockets or them taking my country. Just nice here.

dutchman · Mar 11, 2017

martcov said:
Not worried about pick pockets or them taking my country.

Just to be clear, when you say "my country" do you mean Germany or England?

martcov · Mar 11, 2017

dutchman said:
Just to be clear, when you say "my country" do you mean Germany or England?

I think the clue is in my username...

dutchman · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
I think the clue is in my username...

Not really, there's no reason why a German shouldn't support Coventry City.

So you intend to return to England and spend the rest of your life here?

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

dutchman said:
Not really, there's no reason why a German shouldn't support Coventry City.

So you intend to return to England and spend the rest of your life here?

At the moment I don't think so, but I have family in Cov and maybe we hold on to the family house when my mother dies. I may then spend more time in Cov when I retire.

But who knows what will happen. Either way, I come from Coventry and my current geographical position does not alter that.

I doubt whether a German would call himself Martcov.

dutchman · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
At the moment I don't think so.

So you have no intention of living here yet have a strong opinion on how it should be run, ie: for the benefit of people living in Germany.

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

dutchman said:
So you have no intention of living here yet have a strong opinion on how it should be run, ie: for the benefit of people living in Germany.

You are now in your fantasy world and making things up.

I have a strong opinion that Europe is better served as a unified trading block following a unified foreign policy, as opposed to 28 nation states competing with each other for export markets and squabbling amongst themselves- which judging by past experience, usually ends up with trade wars and military wars.

That means creating a Europe benefiting all members ( yes southern Italy and Greece are poor and in a bad state - that is not new and not all to blame on the EU ) instead of following a Trump-like Breitbart national state policy and screw the rest .

You follow the gutter press line. Papers like the Sun are designed to be read by people with a reading age of eight, so you would of course think that my main concern was that Germany should rule Europe from Brussels. The scenario that your Infowars and Breitbart throw out to people like yourself.

scubasteve · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
You are now in your fantasy world and making things up.

I have a strong opinion that Europe is better served as a unified trading block following a unified foreign policy, as opposed to 28 nation states competing with each other for export markets and squabbling amongst themselves- which judging by past experience, usually ends up with trade wars and military wars.

That means creating a Europe benefiting all members ( yes southern Italy and Greece are poor and in a bad state - that is not new and not all to blame on the EU ) instead of following a Trump-like Breitbart national state policy and screw the rest .

You follow the gutter press line. Papers like the Sun are designed to be read by people with a reading age of eight, so you would of course think that my main concern was that Germany should rule Europe from Brussels. The scenario that your Infowars and Breitbart throw out to people like yourself.

why is anyone who is opposed to Britain being in the European union, follow gutter press, with a reading age of 8, think Germany rules Europe, follow info wars and breitbart, and like trump? or do just label anyone who doesn't agree with you and considers leave the right vote is racist or a idiot. Maybe some people just don't see it as black and white but more grey, and can see that there are benefits of being in the European union but also that there are also many benefits being out of it also.

If the European union was just a trading block then I don't think anyone would be having this conversation, as we all know what clearly started as a trade deal, has moved on to something quite bigger. Competing and squabbling over exports? is that like the 28 countries taking 9 years to agree a trade deal with Canada, only for it to nearly fail as one part of begium didn't want it? Many other countries around the world are doing just fine not in a large union, I don't see japan, china, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA, doing too badly they are not in the European union or of similar ilk.

Are you really trying to say we are going to go to war once we or anyone else leaves the European union. I thought Europe was about peace and unity or is that until you don't want to be part of the gang anymore?, plenty of countries around the world get on just fine not being in the European union.

Italy and Greece are a mess and will continue to be a mess, when Greece who have had 2 bail outs and couldn't afford to pay the debt, but are now giving them another bail out which we all know they cant afford, so just leaving them in economic genocide for the foreseeable future.

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

scubasteve said:
why is anyone who is opposed to Britain being in the European union, follow gutter press, with a reading age of 8, think Germany rules Europe, follow info wars and breitbart, and like trump? or do just label anyone who doesn't agree with you and considers leave the right vote is racist or a idiot. Maybe some people just don't see it as black and white but more grey, and can see that there are benefits of being in the European union but also that there are also many benefits being out of it also.

If the European union was just a trading block then I don't think anyone would be having this conversation, as we all know what clearly started as a trade deal, has moved on to something quite bigger. Competing and squabbling over exports? is that like the 28 countries taking 9 years to agree a trade deal with Canada, only for it to nearly fail as one part of begium didn't want it? Many other countries around the world are doing just fine not in a large union, I don't see japan, china, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA, doing too badly they are not in the European union or of similar ilk.

Are you really trying to say we are going to go to war once we or anyone else leaves the European union. I thought Europe was about peace and unity or is that until you don't want to be part of the gang anymore?, plenty of countries around the world get on just fine not being in the European union.

Italy and Greece are a mess and will continue to be a mess, when Greece who have had 2 bail outs and couldn't afford to pay the debt, but are now giving them another bail out which we all know they cant afford, so just leaving them in economic genocide for the foreseeable future.

I am at work, so I cannot go through all that.

I was not referring to all leavers. Just Dutchman. If you read his posting history you will see why.

Canada and the US are in a trading block. You should check out Australia etc.- I don't have time now.

Squabbling over a trade agreement with a third party whilst continuing to work as a group on most other things is a relatively minor problem.

Should we let Greece just collapse?

Don't forget they had a great run before the collapse which probably would never have happened without EU membership.

Problem was lack of control then. We are paying for it now.

mrtrench · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
Should we let Greece just collapse?

No, they need to take back their currency so they can trade their way out. Greece suffers from a strong EUR (for them) so that Germany can enjoy the benefits of a relatively weak currency. EMU has shafted the weaker European countries.

Greece was weak before it entered the EUR and every investment bank knew it was nuts for them to join. The banks had huge positions in the drachma in the months before EMU as it was obvious to them that it was an easy way to make money.

scubasteve · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
I am at work, so I cannot go through all that.

I was not referring to all leavers. Just Dutchman. If you read his posting history you will see why.

Canada and the US are in a trading block. You should check out Australia etc.- I don't have time now.

Squabbling over a trade agreement with a third party whilst continuing to work as a group on most other things is a relatively minor problem.

Should we let Greece just collapse?

Don't forget they had a great run before the collapse which probably would never have happened without EU membership.

Problem was lack of control then. We are paying for it now.

yes a trading block which no one would have a problem with, but that's not what the European union is anymore is moved on a lot further than that.

squabbling over a trade agreement..... its 9 years to agree a deal with 1 country, the problem is there are that many members you struggle to please and benefit every member, 2 countries agreeing a deal is a lot easier.

no we should let Greece collapse they should be able to leave the European union, take back their currency and build themselves back, the euro is killing them and they have no control of getting themselves out of trouble, clearly these bailouts don't work, its economic slavery.

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

mrtrench said:
No, they need to take back their currency so they can trade their way out. Greece suffers from a strong EUR (for them) so that Germany can enjoy the benefits of a relatively weak currency. EMU has shafted the weaker European countries.

Greece was weak before it entered the EUR and every investment bank knew it was nuts for them to join. The banks had huge positions in the drachma in the months before EMU as it was obvious to them that it was an easy way to make money.

Maybe so about the big banks having drachma. They, big banks, are now sweating- that is the ones who lent Greece the money - that Greece defaults. I don't agree with the conspiracy theory that it is all about Germany enjoying itself at others' expense.

The Germans are pumping money in and people in Germany think that Greece enjoyed itself - early retirement, not bothered too much about paying taxes, lots of loop holes in the tax system ( e.g. for shipping lines and the families of generals ) etc. - at the expense of others, and that Germany is one of the main countries bailing Greece out.

The Trump theory that Germany manipulated the euro to be weak runs at odds with the right wing theory in Germany of the euro being weakened by Italy and Greece.

Whoever is right, it is definitely not a black and white situation.

My own conspiracy theory is that a stable euro would be a challenge medium term to the dollar as a reserve currency and the US doesn't want that to happen. A divided Europe would be in Putin's geopolitical interest, and it would make it easier for the US to shaft 28 individual countries as opposed to a 500 million population economic block.

Expect even more anti EU propaganda from RT and Breitbart/ Infowars.

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

scubasteve said:
yes a trading block which no one would have a problem with, but that's not what the European union is anymore is moved on a lot further than that.

squabbling over a trade agreement..... its 9 years to agree a deal with 1 country, the problem is there are that many members you struggle to please and benefit every member, 2 countries agreeing a deal is a lot easier.

no we should let Greece collapse they should be able to leave the European union, take back their currency and build themselves back, the euro is killing them and they have no control of getting themselves out of trouble, clearly these bailouts don't work, its economic slavery.

I used to sell drachma to tourists. It was always being devalued. Great for tourists, but not for Greeks if they wanted to manufacture based on imported goods or to buy import goods. It wasn't paradise, but they have a mild climate and they could retire early and live cheaply on the basics.

How would they build themselves back? And back what to? A holiday camp and an agricultural society with a few shipping tycoons?

scubasteve · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
Maybe so about the big banks having drachma. They, big banks, are now sweating- that is the ones who lent Greece the money - that Greece defaults. I don't agree with the conspiracy theory that it is all about Germany enjoying itself at others' expense.

The Germans are pumping money in and people in Germany think that Greece enjoyed itself - early retirement, not bothered too much about paying taxes, lots of loop holes in the tax system ( e.g. for shipping lines and the families of generals ) etc. - at the expense of others, and that Germany is one of the main countries bailing Greece out.

The Trump theory that Germany manipulated the euro to be weak runs at odds with the right wing theory in Germany of the euro being weakened by Italy and Greece.

Whoever is right, it is definitely not a black and white situation.

My own conspiracy theory is that a stable euro would be a challenge medium term to the dollar as a reserve currency and the US doesn't want that to happen. A divided Europe would be in Putin's geopolitical interest, and it would make it easier for the US to shaft 28 individual countries as opposed to a 500 million population economic block.

Expect even more anti EU propaganda from RT and Breitbart/ Infowars.

You are right the Germany has a lot or too much invested in the greek economy it would cause massive problems for them to cancel the debt or Greece didn't pay it back, but is that not a case of bad investment though? I wouldn't keep lending money to my mate if he was broke and couldn't pay it back. I don't have the answers of how Greece build themselves back up, but keeping them in debt slavery is not the answer.

SkyblueBazza · Mar 12, 2017

Sick Boy said:
As far as I am aware, the Open Britain group are campaigning for the rights of EU citizens here and parliament to have a vote at the end of the negotiations. Doesn't sound like trying to overturn the result to me.

We were told that leaving the EU would lead to cheaper good due to trade deals with other countries and more money in people's pockets. Not sure why some are getting anxious about it being overturned?

But we are a relatively wealthy country. I read yesterday that the Spanish gov't are saying this so called hard Brexit would lose them €4bn. We are a significant population with skills, money & influence that the EU wants & needs...that's why there are stories surfacing about allowing individual British to apply to retain freedom of movement for themselves, & also continuing the free-trading amongst other things.

The EU is not an enemy, together Britain & the EU will work out a mutually beneficial agreement. We just have to believe that because whatever they all come up with...we are mere passengers

...onwards & upwards PUSB

scubasteve · Mar 12, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
But we are a relatively wealthy country. I read yesterday that the Spanish gov't are saying this so called hard Brexit would lose them €4bn. We are a significant population with skills, money & influence that the EU wants & needs...that's why there are stories surfacing about allowing individual British to apply to retain freedom of movement for themselves, & also continuing the free-trading amongst other things.

The EU is not an enemy, together Britain & the EU will work out a mutually beneficial agreement. We just have to believe that because whatever they all come up with...we are mere passengers

...onwards & upwards PUSB

cant disagree with you there, a fair and free trade deal is what would make sense and benefit both sides. however some in the EU think that they cant give Britain this and would rather cut off their nose to spite their face, giving Britain a good deal could show weakness and may open the door to other countries wanting to leave/ get a better deal. You only have to look at the rise in anti eu politics, the elections in Holland, france and Italy. Holland could well be looking at leaving in the next few years after the election coming up, and if marine le pen win the election in france that could trigger them to either leave or get a better deal.

mrtrench · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
Expect even more anti EU propaganda from RT and Breitbart/ Infowars.

Haven't a clue what they are - reminder that I make my own mind up based on the facts I see and my knowledge and experience.

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory; I'm not saying Germany did it cynically. However what has happened is exactly what I wrote - Greece is suffering and Germany is enjoying the weak currency. Moreover it was entirely predictable. During the EMU debate the BBC was full of people on the street saying how they didn't want to lose the pound and it seemed that I was the only person thinking that this was trivial and unimportant and the real problem with EMU is that it is economic suicide for Greece, Italy etc. and would be very bad for the UK too. Seeing the huge arbitrage positions being built up by the banks only confirmed what I suspected - whenever one can take the piss out of a situation it's a clear sign that it's madness. Same with Brown's credit bubble - obviously wrong and easy to take the piss out of.

Leaving the Euro isn't a panacea (although it will certainly help). Greece also needs to dump socialism and fix its tax collection. Socialism destroys countries with a 100% success rate to date.

Sick Boy · Mar 12, 2017

scubasteve said:
cant disagree with you there, a fair and free trade deal is what would make sense and benefit both sides. however some in the EU think that they cant give Britain this and would rather cut off their nose to spite their face, giving Britain a good deal could show weakness and may open the door to other countries wanting to leave/ get a better deal. You only have to look at the rise in anti eu politics, the elections in Holland, france and Italy. Holland could well be looking at leaving in the next few years after the election coming up, and if marine le pen win the election in france that could trigger them to either leave or get a better deal.

Some of the British MPs have done the country no favours as the triggering of article 50 approaches.

The likes of Johnson droning on about not paying the EU any money as part of the 'divorce bill' is only going to cause ill feeling and harm the UK.

Some treat triggering Article 50 as a declaration of war, which is bizarre.

There is a very small chance of the far-right gaining power in France and Holland. Also the 5 Star Movement (which is an utter joke) in Italy wants to have a referendum on the euro, not the EU.

People go on about getting the best deal for Britain and protecting its interests, why should the EU not do the same? Also, plenty of MPs here have done a lot of 'tough talking', yet get upset when the EU does the same as start labelling it as evil, which is pathetic.

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

mrtrench said:
Haven't a clue what they are - reminder that I make my own mind up based on the facts I see and my knowledge and experience.

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory; I'm not saying Germany did it cynically. However what has happened is exactly what I wrote - Greece is suffering and Germany is enjoying the weak currency. Moreover it was entirely predictable. During the EMU debate the BBC was full of people on the street saying how they didn't want to lose the pound and it seemed that I was the only person thinking that this was trivial and unimportant and the real problem with EMU is that it is economic suicide for Greece, Italy etc. and would be very bad for the UK too. Seeing the huge arbitrage positions being built up by the banks only confirmed what I suspected - whenever one can take the piss out of a situation it's a clear sign that it's madness. Same with Brown's credit bubble - obviously wrong and easy to take the piss out of.

Leaving the Euro isn't a panacea (although it will certainly help). Greece also needs to dump socialism and fix its tax collection. Socialism destroys countries with a 100% success rate to date.

Didn't say they were your news sources. Just that there are people with a vested interest in dividing Europe.

mrtrench · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
Didn't say they were your news sources. Just that there are people with a vested interest in dividing Europe.

I'm sure there are as well as some with vested interests to keep it together or to expand. I don't trust any politicians.

dutchman · Mar 12, 2017

Rotterdam riot, shift to the right ahead of elections signal death of the European Union vision

THE European Union is in danger of disintegration as the French, Dutch and Germans head to the polls in the coming months.

First out of the blocks is the Netherlands in this week’s general election.

Nationalist Geert Wilders’ campaign to become the next prime minister got a boost yesterday as crowds of protesters throwing rocks and bottles and chanting “Allahu Akbar” converged outside the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam.

Police had to use water cannon and dogs to control the enraged demonstrators, who despite enjoying the freedoms and prosperity of the West sided with the Turks in a diplomatic dispute that began on the weekend.

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

dutchman said:
Rotterdam riot, shift to the right ahead of elections signal death of the European Union vision

Did I make this up too?

No. It is more like Les Reid style journalism. Not your style.

Certainly religious and racist lunatics have the effect of creating resistance against themselves.

More reason why we shouldn't fall into this trap.

Sick Boy · Mar 12, 2017

dutchman said:
Rotterdam riot, shift to the right ahead of elections signal death of the European Union vision

Did I make this up too?

Link doesn't work.

How's the far-right government getting on in Austria?

dutchman · Mar 12, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Link doesn't work.

Link has now been fixed, I think? Thanks for telling me.

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

scubasteve said:
You are right the Germany has a lot or too much invested in the greek economy it would cause massive problems for them to cancel the debt or Greece didn't pay it back, but is that not a case of bad investment though? I wouldn't keep lending money to my mate if he was broke and couldn't pay it back. I don't have the answers of how Greece build themselves back up, but keeping them in debt slavery is not the answer.

This is the best time to be in debt. Interest rates are low. I don't know what would happen if they were to rise significantly..., that would be the end for countries like Greece.

dutchman · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
This is the best time to be in debt. Interest rates are low.

They're not just low, they're negative in some EU countries and a union that relies on negative interest rates is not long for this world.

mrtrench · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
This is the best time to be in debt. Interest rates are low. I don't know what would happen if they were to rise significantly..., that would be the end for countries like Greece.

Government bonds are typically at a fixed interest rate. The issue would be further borrowing not existing.

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

dutchman said:
They're not just low, they're negative in some EU countries and a union that relies on negative interest rates is not long for this world.

How high are the rates in the US?

martcov · Mar 12, 2017

mrtrench said:
Government bonds are typically at a fixed interest rate. The issue would be further borrowing not existing.

That is what I meant. When the fixed term runs out. Depending on what borrowing is required. One reason for holding interest down where you can, is to relieve government borrowing. Towns and cities in Germany are paying back debt with new debt at virtually no interest. Companies and banks with cash are parking it with towns rather than paying negative interest with the central bank. A great bonus for cities that had high debts at high rates of interest.

dutchman · Mar 12, 2017

martcov said:
How high are the rates in the US?

Higher than in Euro countries or in Britain.

European Central Bank = 0.00%
Bank of England = 0.25%
Federal Reserve = 0.75%

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (6 Viewers)

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