The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (13 Viewers)

martcov · Mar 5, 2017

ccfc92 said:
Of course not.

However, saying that instantly makes me a skin head neo-nazi with no compassion for humanity.

As Sick Boy says, that is typically Breitbart victim talk. The Trump supporters would also say that. Why don't you just say, of course there will be a percentage of criminals? There is amongst all populations. You may be a Nazi etc., or you may not be, but you shouldn't be accused of that just because you state the obvious, that there are criminals amongst a million people. No-one ( no sane person ) would accuse you of being a Nazi based on that. It says a lot though, that people have to use the victim line although no-one has said anything. Seems a bit like a feeling of guilt.

'I'm not a racist, but...'

Sick Boy · Mar 5, 2017

ccfc92 said:
But that's exactly my point.

I don't see why we are at war with the middle east, I am not in favour at all. I am personally not "bombing the crap" out of anyone, nor rejecting anyone from living in peace and safety.

However, any national security concern raised seems to point straight to fascism. Why?

I don't think it does. The far right have created a narrative to make it seem that way. I'm not sure how EU migrants are a national security concern though?
Non EU refugees looking to come here illegally won't care if we are in the EU or not.

Kingokings204 · Mar 5, 2017

martcov said:
Farage has said Nuttall missed the main issue which is immigration. He said UKIP must be harder on immigration. I didn't say that, Farage did.

He did but how's that anti immigration?

martcov · Mar 5, 2017

ccfc92 said:
But that's exactly my point.

I don't see why we are at war with the middle east, I am not in favour at all. I am personally not "bombing the crap" out of anyone, nor rejecting anyone from living in peace and safety.

However, any national security concern raised seems to point straight to fascism. Why?

It doesn't.... but right wing sites imply that it does and that people are saying that you are a fascist ..

Sick Boy · Mar 5, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
He did but how's that anti immigration?

Look at the articles I posted. I posted 1 from the Guardian and 1 from the express for balance.

martcov · Mar 5, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
He did but how's that anti immigration?

? He is saying that they should take an anti immigration stance. He will claim he wants a points system etc., but at the end of the day he wants to restrict immigration. The next call will be voluntary repatriation.

Kingokings204 · Mar 5, 2017

Sick Boy said:
It seems that you don't follow your man's career that closely:

Nigel Farage: Carswell 'stopping Ukip becoming radical anti-immigration party'

Carswell is BLOCKING Ukip from becoming RADICAL anti-immigration party, Farage says

As for your other point, that's fine but don't be surprised if you end up with a lack of health and other key workers. Why would they choose to get a visa for Britain when they can go to places like Canada, Australia or even Germany, where the quality of life is a lot higher?

Most of friends come from the EU and a lot are making plans to leave. I personally can't wait to escape Why would we want to stay somewhere where my partner is no longer welcome, despite providing a key public service and contributing a lot more than some British citiziens to society?

Sorry sickboy. I do know the mans career probably more than most and I still can't see for the life of me where he is quoted as saying "anti immigration" it's because he has never ever said it. It's a paper headline you have gave us a link for and guess what it isn't true. Read the article.

Kingokings204 · Mar 5, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Look at the articles I posted. I posted 1 from the Guardian and 1 from the express for balance.

I can't see the quote for anti immigration. I can't see where he said that in your links. I have seen them before as well.

Kingokings204 · Mar 5, 2017

martcov said:
? He is saying that they should take an anti immigration stance. He will claim he wants a points system etc., but at the end of the day he wants to restrict immigration. The next call will be voluntary repatriation.

Yes restrict/control mmigration with a fair points system that's for every country in the world. I don't see whats wrong with that?

dutchman · Mar 5, 2017

ccfc92 said:
You're right. But that's my point, those in Germany/wherever are genuine refugees right?

No, they are 'economic migrants'.

Sick Boy · Mar 5, 2017

dutchman said:
No, they are 'economic migrants'.

So there have literally been no refugees from Syria?

Sick Boy · Mar 5, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
I can't see the quote for anti immigration. I can't see where he said that in your links. I have seen them before as well.

Fair point (that was hard to say )

dutchman · Mar 5, 2017

Sick Boy said:
So there have literally been no refugees from Syria?

None at all. If the were 'refugees' they would have stopped at the first mid-east country to offer them a safe haven, not journeyed all the way to western europe.

Kingokings204 · Mar 5, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Fair point (that was hard to say )

Haha it was the daily express as well. Misquoting Nigel- how very dare they. :emoji_open_mouth:

martcov · Mar 6, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Yes restrict/control mmigration with a fair points system that's for every country in the world. I don't see whats wrong with that?

How does that work with refugees? 19 points if you have been raped? 21 points if you have lost your home?

dutchman · Mar 6, 2017

martcov said:
How does that work with refugees? 19 points if you have been raped? 21 points if you have lost your home?

There are no 'refugees' in Western Europe, only 'economic migrants' (plus a few terrorists).

Kingokings204 · Mar 6, 2017

martcov said:
How does that work with refugees? 19 points if you have been raped? 21 points if you have lost your home?

Well there are other ways to do it I accept such as permits. The point I'm making is immigration should be controlled in my opinion.

Liquid Gold · Mar 6, 2017

dutchman said:
There are no 'refugees' in Western Europe, only 'economic migrants' (plus a few terrorists).

Refugee
noun
a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

Distance of travel has nothing to do with a persons refugee status. To suggest the only middle eastern people in western Europe are either economic migrants or terrorists is dangerous and divisive and you're either very misinformed or actively ignorant.

martcov · Mar 6, 2017

dutchman said:
There are no 'refugees' in Western Europe, only 'economic migrants' (plus a few terrorists).

These 'economic migrants' only appeared after their country was destroyed by war. Before that Syria was a stable country and not one of the poorest.

These 'economic migrants' have risked their lives and/ walked for miles between getting lifts in dangerous and uncomfortable circumstances.

They have no secure homes and their livelihoods have been destroyed- you now define these people as 'economic migrants'.... most people, including the people who signed up to the Geneva convention or who are members of the UN, describe your 'economic migrants' as refugees. Which is what the majority are.

Try looking it up in a dictionary.

There may be a few terrorists with them, but most terrorist attacks are made by people already in Europe before Merkel's 'open door' announcement. Most US attacks are also by home grown terrorists. Big exception being 9/11, but their ( 9/11 ) countries of origin are still good enough for us to sell weapons to and not Part of Trump's ban.

martcov · Mar 6, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Well there are other ways to do it I accept such as permits. The point I'm making is immigration should be controlled in my opinion.

Refugees are not immigrants in the sense of people like myself moving from England to Germany. A refugee crisis is harder to control. We need to be more proactive in helping countries at risk. It costs money, but the collapse of previously stable countries like Syria costs us more in the end.

I am of benefit to the German society. I pay loads of taxes - including VAT, and I employ people. I came as an EU migrant without a permit or points tally. Movement between EU countries is on the whole beneficial. There are the usual liggers who take advantage and I am for controlling rights to benefits etc. through a minimum time of residence or of contributions. I am still for free movement and free trade within the EU.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 6, 2017

Grendel said:
Not really know.

Also I have to say that I find it extremely amusing that the socialist element in our country are now defending the rights of the second chamber to have their view.

You know, those undemocratic and unelected members of a despised heraldic system.

I'd almost buy into Brexit if it meant we got rid of the House of Lords.

dutchman · Mar 6, 2017

martcov said:
These 'economic migrants' have risked their lives and/ walked for miles between getting lifts in dangerous and uncomfortable circumstances.

Passing through many places of safety in between which makes them economic migrants.

martcov said:
Try looking it up in a dictionary.

Migrant
noun
a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions

martcov said:
There may be a few terrorists with them, but most terrorist attacks are made by people already in Europe before Merkel's 'open door' announcement.

If there's even one terrorist among them or one murderer or one sex offender that's one too many.

Astute · Mar 7, 2017

Sick Boy said:
But....but...Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Aron Banks and Trump are anti-elite and men of the people, just like you and me!

And Tony Bliar is like who?

Astute · Mar 7, 2017

Sick Boy said:
That's strange, according to the leave campaign Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Turkey were about to join. Which one is it?

What evidence do you have that every other country is desperate to get out? Apart from the Express?

There are countries in the EU where racist politicians are getting their most votes because they say that they want out of the EU. A lot of black people in the UK voted to leave. Yet it is said that the people who voted leave are racist.

Astute · Mar 7, 2017

martcov said:
As Sick Boy says, that is typically Breitbart victim talk. The Trump supporters would also say that. Why don't you just say, of course there will be a percentage of criminals? There is amongst all populations. You may be a Nazi etc., or you may not be, but you shouldn't be accused of that just because you state the obvious, that there are criminals amongst a million people. No-one ( no sane person ) would accuse you of being a Nazi based on that. It says a lot though, that people have to use the victim line although no-one has said anything. Seems a bit like a feeling of guilt.

'I'm not a racist, but...'

Just like when leave voters get accused of being racist because they see that there is not enough housing or infrastructure to cope with those already in the UK.

Astute · Mar 7, 2017

Sick Boy said:
So there have literally been no refugees from Syria?

Or Poland. Or Romania. Or Italy......

Sick Boy · Mar 7, 2017

Astute said:
Or Poland. Or Romania. Or Italy......

I'm not sure why Polish, Romanians or Italians would have walked to Europe from the Middle East?

Sick Boy · Mar 7, 2017

Astute said:
There are countries in the EU where racist politicians are getting their most votes because they say that they want out of the EU. A lot of black people in the UK voted to leave. Yet it is said that the people who voted leave are racist.

Can you enlighten us with where these countries are and name the MPs who have have received more votes than other politicians?

There is the far-right La Legs Nord who seem to share a lot of your views but they are against those from outside of the EU. Granted, the shambolic 5 Star get a lot of votes but they want to leave the Euro, not the EU. Le Pen has promised a referendum but looks unlikely to win.

Where else?

Is it not possible for black people to be racist? I've seen racism against a white person from a black person. I've even been on the receiving end of it from a Pakistani myself.

Don't worry, myself of non-English blood and my immigrant girlfriend and doing our bit for Britain and leaving. With some of the views expressed on here it's clear significant amount of people within this country do not wish people like us to be here any longer. Perhaps you could replace her midwifery skills with all those British midwives sitting around on the dole?

mrtrench · Mar 7, 2017

Astute said:
There are countries in the EU where racist politicians are getting their most votes because they say that they want out of the EU. A lot of black people in the UK voted to leave. Yet it is said that the people who voted leave are racist.

I may have written this here before, so apologies if I have. In my opinion the UK has been really smart in giving the vote. Even though I don't for a minute believe that it was the intention, by doing so we have avoided a far right group getting control in parliament. Le Pen and her mates in Holland, Germany, Hungary etc. either already have power or may soon get it on the back of anti-EU sentiment. We've dodged that bullet and have a moderate party in control and get to leave - a perfect solution IMO. If we don't leave due to the shenanigans of the Lords and the Lib Dems then I believe that UKIP would do very much better in 2020. For the record I don't think that Farage is a racist but there are some in UKIP along with other nutters. Although most people who voted leave aren't racists I accept that some racists will be attracted to a prospect of leaving.

I don't expect some on here to agree that the Tories are a moderate party but I'm past arguing with people on this point. I also believe that the hard-liners who denounce so much as 'nasty right' even when it plainly isn't is what will drive countries into the power of the real right. I won't be driven into voting UKIP but many others might well do if their votes are ignored - and they've already been called stupid, racist and bigoted many times since the vote.

martcov · Mar 7, 2017

Astute said:
There are countries in the EU where racist politicians are getting their most votes because they say that they want out of the EU. A lot of black people in the UK voted to leave. Yet it is said that the people who voted leave are racist.

Which countries and how many black or migration background people vote for them? How much is a 'a lot' as a percentage?

martcov · Mar 7, 2017

dutchman said:
Passing through many places of safety in between which makes them economic migrants.

Migrant
noun
a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions

If there's even one terrorist among them or one murderer or one sex offender that's one too many.

Refugees are coming from Syria because there is a war on. They may end up with better living conditions in the long term, but may have to live in a camp for years in the meantime. They were not flooding into Europe before the destruction of Syria and so are not economic migrants. They are not migrating primarily to get a job in Europe.

You cannot ban the rest of the world because the may be a sex offender amongst them.

The next question is, what are you going to do about sex offenders and criminals in our society? Kill them? Deport them elsewhere?

We generally punish them or try and rehabilitate them. That is what we will do with migrant criminals.

Perhaps, though, you prefer killing our criminals and letting the refugees - the overwhelming number of good refugees and the minority of bad refugees - just be killed, raped or maimed?

Seems like you are a reasonable guy....

martcov · Mar 7, 2017

Astute said:
Just like when leave voters get accused of being racist because they see that there is not enough housing or infrastructure to cope with those already in the UK.

No. There are many things wrong Britain. The racists blame everything on the EU migrants and therefore the EU. All of these gladly voted leave. You are playing the victim if you think all leave voters are automatically classed in this group by people like myself.

martcov · Mar 7, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
I'd almost buy into Brexit if it meant we got rid of the House of Lords.

The article 50 debacle shows the need for a second chamber. The present system does need rethinking though.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 7, 2017

martcov said:
The article 50 debacle shows the need for a second chamber. The present system does need rethinking though.

Never said we shouldn't have a second chamber. It's a joke it's not elected though.

Less elected than the European Parliament, of course...

martcov · Mar 7, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Never said we shouldn't have a second chamber. It's a joke it's not elected though.

Less elected than the European Parliament, of course...

No. People actually voted for people/ MEPs like Farage. I think you mean the European Commission whose members are nominated by elected representatives.

I think the Lords is far less democratic than these European institutions.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (13 Viewers)

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