The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

Astute · Jan 18, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
How much clearer can 'take no deal off the table', 'keep us in the customs union' with 'protections for workers and the environment' -- the Labour position is clear.

The opposition doesn't need a clear cut policy because we're not in an election cycle so has the privilege of keeping all its options open. Outside forces, other opposition and the Government wants a 'People's Vote' to become official Labour policy, which Corbyn should not back, yet.

And here we go again. In the UK we have continued to have better workers rights. In Europe the EU agreed that workers rights could be reduced as asked for by members. The usual suspects told me I was wrong as always and went quiet when I showed them the evidence. Are you telling me that I am wrong?

And no Corbyns position is not clear. Only those who defend Corbyn will pretend it is. Yes he wants the no deal taking off the table. What he is doing is trying to force May into a corner.

If May takes no deal off the table she would be left with her deal that not many people want or stay in the EU. So he is trying to get her to say we will stay in the EU.

Astute · Jan 18, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Course I completely understand that and agree that it’s reasonable for people to feel that way.

But and it’s big. But he laid out the reality for rolls Royce and Toyota and they didn’t care that Toyota would suspend all operations in the event of a no deal.

One guy said merkel wants to sell 850000 cars to us so it will get sorted. Mmmmm

Worrying.

It’s alnost like me and my faith. Some things I find hard to explain but I accept them as reality and work through my understanding and others just think I’m an idiot to believe the things I do

Hardly anyone wants a no deal. But it is needed on the table until a better solution is decided on that people can agree with.

And even if we end up with a no deal hardly anything will change for at least a year. The EU has said so. They have countries already in recession including Germany so they want to keep things as they are. They say it is for their benefit not ours. So it becomes a bargaining tool. Get rid of that option and we get rid of our bargaining tool.

Astute · Jan 18, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Yep why would they put her on massive own goal. I though the star was the lecturer and it was members of the audience not the audience. It was more than a few though which when shown the reality of Toyota and rolls Royce with a no deal I found troubling. What would you say? Confident in their assertions? Not arrogant. I meet loads of people who sound confident about stuff they know nothing about and that’s what I thought listening to their dimissal of a complete shut down of the Toyota plant

That is the problem. They see what affects them as a problem and something that doesn't affect them not a problem.

You see it on here all the time. You are one that can see it both ways. You can see the problems. Some only see what they want to see and will argue the toss about everything else. Things are not rosy in the EU or the UK. And whichever way we go there will be problems. But some don't want to admit to this. All they want is what they want and don't care what happens otherwise.

shmmeee · Jan 18, 2019

Astute said:
Hardly anyone wants a no deal. But it is needed on the table until a better solution is decided on that people can agree with.

And even if we end up with a no deal hardly anything will change for at least a year. The EU has said so. They have countries already in recession including Germany so they want to keep things as they are. They say it is for their benefit not ours. So it becomes a bargaining tool. Get rid of that option and we get rid of our bargaining tool.

Don’t understand how No Deal is a bargaining chip.

“Do what I say or I’ll shoot myself in the foot! You wouldn’t want to have to wash blood splatter out of these lovely carpets would you!?”

So scary.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jan 18, 2019

Astute said:
And here we go again. In the UK we have continued to have better workers rights. In Europe the EU agreed that workers rights could be reduced as asked for by members. The usual suspects told me I was wrong as always and went quiet when I showed them the evidence. Are you telling me that I am wrong?

And no Corbyns position is not clear. Only those who defend Corbyn will pretend it is. Yes he wants the no deal taking off the table. What he is doing is trying to force May into a corner.

If May takes no deal off the table she would be left with her deal that not many people want or stay in the EU. So he is trying to get her to say we will stay in the EU.

Obviously, he is trying to corner May! Equally, May is trying to corner Corbyn to adopt a second referendum as Labour Party policy. Both parties have wings of their parties to placate on Brexit.

How can the opposition have a coherent policy on Brexit? It is not negotiating with the EU so can only hold the Government to account here. They want the Government to take No Deal off the table and sign the UK up to the Customs Union — that’s pretty clear cut in anyone’s eyes. What IS unclear is whether or not Corbyn would campaign to leave the EU or to campaign for a second referendum in another GE — that’s what his political opponents are trying to do.

You’ve bought into this idea of a Westminster conspiracy. The issue of EU membership is not one that Corbyn is passionate about, one way or the other. In fact, his Eurosceptic credentials are far stronger than May’s. The only thing the Labour Party is trying to force the Government to do is to call a new General Election. When an election is called, Labour will have to put together a clear policy.

Nick · Jan 18, 2019

shmmeee said:
Don’t understand how No Deal is a bargaining chip.

“Do what I say or I’ll shoot myself in the foot! You wouldn’t want to have to wash blood splatter out of these lovely carpets would you!?”

So scary.

They should do it over social media, then just post this.

Then thousands could post this:

Brexit is then solved.

Grendel · Jan 18, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
How much clearer can 'take no deal off the table', 'keep us in the customs union' with 'protections for workers and the environment' -- the Labour position is clear.

The opposition doesn't need a clear cut policy because we're not in an election cycle so has the privilege of keeping all its options open. Outside forces, other opposition and the Government wants a 'People's Vote' to become official Labour policy, which Corbyn should not back, yet.

No deal can’t be taken off the table so it’s a deliberate stall

Mucca Mad Boys · Jan 18, 2019

Grendel said:
No deal can’t be taken off the table so it’s a deliberate stall

It can, actually. Even if the EU refused to extend Article 50, hypothetically.

If push come to shove, the Government could revoke, then re-invoke Article 50 to restart the 2 year process of us leaving the EU.

That is, if you want to be technical.

Grendel · Jan 18, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
It can, actually. Even if the EU refused to extend Article 50, hypothetically.

If push come to shove, the Government could revoke, then re-invoke Article 50 to restart the 2 year process of us leaving the EU.

That is, if you want to be technical.

In other words they can’t

skybluetony176 · Jan 18, 2019

Otis said:
Okay, suppose for a minute, it comes down to May's deal or no Deal.

The DUP will surely back no deal. Just wondering how we think the Tories will vote. What will the majority be if it comes down simply to these two scenario's and nothing else?

Would I be right in guessing that the fear of a no deal is so strong amongst some MP's that they will come down on May's side?

I am only talking about the Tories here.

If it is just down to the Tories and the DUP, would it be May's deal that would win the day?

The BBC has done a useful guide on the various factions within the Tories

Where Tory tribes stand on Brexit

skybluetony176 · Jan 18, 2019

shmmeee said:
Don’t understand how No Deal is a bargaining chip.

“Do what I say or I’ll shoot myself in the foot! You wouldn’t want to have to wash blood splatter out of these lovely carpets would you!?”

So scary.

The reality is that the threat of a no deal is an admission of your lack of bargaining strength. All it says is we have nothing positive to negotiate a deal from so we’re consigning ourselves to the lowest possible denominator as a starting point.

CCFCSteve · Jan 18, 2019

[

Mucca Mad Boys said:
It can, actually. Even if the EU refused to extend Article 50, hypothetically.

If push come to shove, the Government could revoke, then re-invoke Article 50 to restart the 2 year process of us leaving the EU.

That is, if you want to be technical.

Love the idea (and thought at one point we should do this), however, I heard this isn't legally possible unless we are committed to remaining. Not sure how the European court of justice could judge on that but it certainly couldn't be used as part of a strategy/negotiation

Realistically the only way to take No Deal off the table is to extend (or agree withdrawal agreement obviously !), you might even have to promise the EU to hold a second ref to get all 27 onboard with an extension although as we get closer they might be willing to extend if there is a risk of No Deal (bizarre/contradictory as that sounds)

I agree with the point that it would be self harm, however, it would also harm the EU so needs to be left on the table to incentivise at least some of the 27 to apply pressure on the commission to take a flexible approach and/or encourage them to seek a resolution asap. Seeing how the negotiations have been conducted to date, if extended it would be left to the end of the timeframe and then a last min rush to push stuff through again.

Otis · Jan 18, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
The BBC has done a useful guide on the various factions within the Tories

Where Tory tribes stand on Brexit

Excellent! Will give it a look.

Thanks.

CCFCSteve · Jan 18, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
The reality is that the threat of a no deal is an admission of your lack of bargaining strength. All it says is we have nothing positive to negotiate a deal from so we’re consigning ourselves to the lowest possible denominator as a starting point.

They should have leveraged other things better, part and/or size of divorce payment etc, however, they have been left with nothing else so it might be the lowest possible denominator but these are negotiations

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 18, 2019

Think Corbyn is a ‘danger to Britain’? Here’s how you’ve been brainwashed

Some good points. Still don’t know why he couldn’t just talk to Mat but hey ho!!

Otis · Jan 18, 2019

Otis said:
Excellent! Will give it a look.

Thanks.

So only 17 of her own party want no deal.

That means if that does happen she is surely going to pee off and awful lot of her own party.

martcov · Jan 18, 2019

Astute said:
And here we go again. In the UK we have continued to have better workers rights. In Europe the EU agreed that workers rights could be reduced as asked for by members. The usual suspects told me I was wrong as always and went quiet when I showed them the evidence. Are you telling me that I am wrong?

And no Corbyns position is not clear. Only those who defend Corbyn will pretend it is. Yes he wants the no deal taking off the table. What he is doing is trying to force May into a corner.

If May takes no deal off the table she would be left with her deal that not many people want or stay in the EU. So he is trying to get her to say we will stay in the EU.

The EU workers rights are a guarantee. If the UK has more rights than what are guaranteed then good. The EU is not forcing them to be reduced. We don’t have zero hours contracts here in Germany and working hours are stricter regulated.

Where do you get that they can be reduced below the guaranteed minimum from?

Astute · Jan 18, 2019

shmmeee said:
Don’t understand how No Deal is a bargaining chip.

“Do what I say or I’ll shoot myself in the foot! You wouldn’t want to have to wash blood splatter out of these lovely carpets would you!?”

So scary.

Do you really mean you don't understand?

Let's start from the beginning.

So we are leaving. We have said that the deal offered to May isn't acceptable. But we won't consider leaving without a deal.

Now what?

Yes we remain. Just what you want. The only thing you want. It is what many of us want. But we don't have to pretend we don't know what is going on.

Astute · Jan 18, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
It can, actually. Even if the EU refused to extend Article 50, hypothetically.

If push come to shove, the Government could revoke, then re-invoke Article 50 to restart the 2 year process of us leaving the EU.

That is, if you want to be technical.

Are you being serious?

martcov · Jan 18, 2019

Astute said:
Do you really mean you don't understand?

Let's start from the beginning.

So we are leaving. We have said that the deal offered to May isn't acceptable. But we won't consider leaving without a deal.

Now what?

Yes we remain. Just what you want. The only thing you want. It is what many of us want. But we don't have to pretend we don't know what is going on.

May drew the red lines at the beginning. The EU didn’t offer this deal. She negotiated it within her red lines. No one likes it.if she wants to go further it means dropping her own red lines. Then she will be accused of weakness. Snookered.

skybluetony176 · Jan 18, 2019

Otis said:
So only 17 of her own party want no deal.

That means if that does happen she is surely going to pee off and awful lot of her own party.

And people go on about how the Labour Party are split as if it somehow makes them unelectable.

Astute · Jan 18, 2019

martcov said:
The EU workers rights are a guarantee. If the UK has more rights than what are guaranteed then good. The EU is not forcing them to be reduced. We don’t have zero hours contracts here in Germany and working hours are stricter regulated.

Where do you get that they can be reduced below the guaranteed minimum from?

The EU said workers from another country could be taken on with a lower wage than those they work alongside. Now this is what you get....

Laval, Viking Line and the Limited Right to Strike | ELA

If you want to disagree I will put up the sane evidence as before that stopped you from posting on the matter. Off to bed for a couple of hours. Then I will see if you remember the last time you disagreed or not.

Astute · Jan 18, 2019

martcov said:
May drew the red lines at the beginning. The EU didn’t offer this deal. She negotiated it within her red lines. No one likes it.if she wants to go further it means dropping her own red lines. Then she will be accused of weakness. Snookered.

The EU didn't offer what deal?

You mean the EU offer and no other thing could be considered?

martcov · Jan 18, 2019

Astute said:
The EU didn't offer what deal?

You mean the EU offer and no other thing could be considered?

No. The deal May negotiated. The EU offered alternatives early on. But May said no CU and no SM saying that is what was voted for.

martcov · Jan 18, 2019

Astute said:
The EU didn't offer what deal?

You mean the EU offer and no other thing could be considered?

Originally they were offered the options as here suggested:

If Leave wins, Britain’s partners are likely to offer just three options: the Norwegian model of the European Economic Area (EEA); the Canadian model of a free trade agreement (FTA); and the rules of the World Trade Organisation (WTO). The EU doesn’t want to give the UK bilateral treaties, like Switzerland has, since it regards the ‘Swiss model’ as broken (the Swiss voted against free movement for EU workers in a referendum in 2014, and may therefore lose access to the single market). Nor will it offer the ‘Turkish model’, whereby Britain would stay in the customs union and have to adopt the EU’s external tariffs (EU leaders assume the UK would not want this model, which would deprive the British of the freedom to negotiate their own trade deals).

May scrapped all of those by dropping the CU and SM. She made up the frame work of wharves on the table. She won’t get any more unless she does back to the original offers.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jan 18, 2019

Astute said:
Are you being serious?

Legally speaking, that’s an option the UK has, that’s what the European Courts ruled.

I don’t think that’s the course of action we should take, but the claim ‘No Deal’ cannot be avoided is simply not a true claim. The option is there if need be.

shmmeee · Jan 18, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
It can, actually. Even if the EU refused to extend Article 50, hypothetically.

If push come to shove, the Government could revoke, then re-invoke Article 50 to restart the 2 year process of us leaving the EU.

That is, if you want to be technical.

I thought the court ruling was a rescinding of A50 was “for keeps” whatever that’s legally interpreted as.

martcov · Jan 18, 2019

These were the anticipated EU offers: „If Leave wins, Britain’s partners are likely to offer just three options: the Norwegian model of the European Economic Area (EEA); the Canadian model of a free trade agreement (FTA); and the rules of the World Trade Organisation (WTO). The EU doesn’t want to give the UK bilateral treaties, like Switzerland has, since it regards the ‘Swiss model’ as broken (the Swiss voted against free movement for EU workers in a referendum in 2014, and may therefore lose access to the single market). Nor will it offer the ‘Turkish model’, whereby Britain would stay in the customs union and have to adopt the EU’s external tariffs (EU leaders assume the UK would not want this model, which would deprive the British of the freedom to negotiate their own trade deals).“

I think they were indeed offered. But, May drew her red lines and here we are.

Astute said:
The EU said workers from another country could be taken on with a lower wage than those they work alongside. Now this is what you get....

Laval, Viking Line and the Limited Right to Strike | ELA

If you want to disagree I will put up the sane evidence as before that stopped you from posting on the matter. Off to bed for a couple of hours. Then I will see if you remember the last time you disagreed or not.

Nothing there about the minimum basic rights. That is an old case which could have been challenged. It is not EU policy. It said on your link that it could be challenged. Sounds like a bad decision. These happen everywhere, even in the UK. What has been the effect in the UK since 2009?

„The judgment of the European Court of Justice was met with widespread condemnation by labour law experts on the basis that it failed to give due regard for the respect of human rights and places business freedom above the interests of working people. It was one of the triggers for the UK's 2009 Lindsey Oil Refinery strikes. The ILO's Committee of Experts found severe breaches of the ILO Convention 87 on the freedom of association and protection of the right to organise. Thus it is generally viewed as being characterised by poor quality reasoning and is regarded by most commentaries as wrong.[6]“

Grendel · Jan 18, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Legally speaking, that’s an option the UK has, that’s what the European Courts ruled.

I don’t think that’s the course of action we should take, but the claim ‘No Deal’ cannot be avoided is simply not a true claim. The option is there if need be.

It is not an option at all as that’s not the same as leaving with no deal and it would need parliament to approve. If this is what Mr Corbyn believes is the solution he should say it

Mucca Mad Boys · Jan 18, 2019

shmmeee said:
I thought the court ruling was a rescinding of A50 was “for keeps” whatever that’s legally interpreted as.

Technically, yes but there’s nothing stopping Parliament invoking it if it voted too again.

skybluetony176 · Jan 18, 2019

Grendel said:
It is not an option at all as that’s not the same as leaving with no deal and it would need parliament to approve. If this is what Mr Corbyn believes is the solution he should say it

I could be wrong but I suspect that Mucca Mad Boys isn’t an official spokesperson for either Labour or Mr Corbyn. Not sure why you think Corbyn should confirm an opinion of a poster on a football forum.

SIR ERNIE · Jan 18, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
And people go on about how the Labour Party are split as if it somehow makes them unelectable.

It's their leader that makes them unelectable.

skybluetony176 · Jan 18, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
It's their leader that makes them unelectable.

In your opinion. He defied his critics and the opinion polls at the last GE who’s to say he won’t do it again? The conservatives next leader might be equally unelectable or maybe even more unelectable. Who knows what could happen. What happens in the Tory party might just raise Corbyns stature when compared to his opposite number. I certainly wouldn’t bet against him if May is still in charge at the next GE. Although she’s promised not to.

Grendel · Jan 18, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Technically, yes but there’s nothing stopping Parliament invoking it if it voted too again.

Yes there is - there is no means to stop the possibility its just play on words from Corbyn

SIR ERNIE · Jan 18, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
He defied his critics and the opinion polls at the last GE who’s to say he won’t do it again?

No chance. People have seen through him now.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

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