The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (33 Viewers)

Astute · Jan 9, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
A second referendum probably the best bet we actually have to unify the country.

Would you like to explain how it could unify the country?

Try thinking another way. Remain won the first referendum. You are happy because you got the result you wanted. About 1.8m more voted remain than leave. But those who voted leave were not happy. They made lots of noise. They wanted a 'people's vote'

Eventually there was another referendum. It was needed to unite the country. This time the vote went to leave. Not as big as about 1.8m difference for remain the time before but still a result for leave.

So we leave the EU. Everyone is happy and United. Even you are happy that you never got what you wanted although it was voted for first time.

Of course not. You would be extremely pissed off.

Ian1779 · Jan 9, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
There is so much division as you put it because 76% of MPs voted remain. They don’t want to implement the Leave vote. They are determined to overturn the result by whatever means.

And whilst I’ve criticised May and her ‘negotiating’ team, you do have to look at Labour MPs who represent ‘leave’ areas in the midlands and north, yet openly continue to fight the remain cause. The fact that at the time of the referendum, out of 227 Labour MPs only 10 voted leave, tells you everything you need to know about the reasons Parliament is deadlocked.

And as an aside, full credit to Clint for his principled position on a second referendum.

And as something Astute mentioned previously, a lot of these MP's are career politicians who in some cases were simply 'airdropped' into a safe seat to get on the ladder. They are amazingly out of touch with the membership and the own constituents.

MP's were entitled to vote as they saw fit, but once the result is done, they should really be fighting for the wishes of their constituents irrespective of their party allegiance.

As a Labour member I want to know if those MP's that sit in Leave constituencies (but voted themselves remain) have taken the time to really engage with their communities to find out why they voted leave. Were people influenced by the bus? Was it about immigration? Was it about being left behind once the industry died out in their town? Has their opinion changed over the last 2 years watching what has been going on? If it has then it might explain the approach that Labour has gone for, but I imagine that any 'research' like this has not been done to the detail that is needed to really understand the electorate properly post referendum.

And being honest none of the polling organisations have done this, nor really have the capacity to do so.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jan 9, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
There is so much division as you put it because 76% of MPs voted remain. They don’t want to implement the Leave vote. They are determined to overturn the result by whatever means.

And whilst I’ve criticised May and her ‘negotiating’ team, you do have to look at Labour MPs who represent ‘leave’ areas in the midlands and north, yet openly continue to fight the remain cause. The fact that at the time of the referendum, out of 227 Labour MPs only 10 voted leave, tells you everything you need to know about the reasons Parliament is deadlocked.

And as an aside, full credit to Clint for his principled position on a second referendum.

It’s not Labour’s opposition that’s causing the government real problems. It’s the Tory back benchers who are giving the government real problems. That’s why they can’t get it through Parliament.

For political reasons, Labour can’t support May’s deal nor a no-deal Brexit as they will get pummelled by the electorate who will desert the party. But the Tories are equally treading public opinion very lightly because there’s a lot at risk for them too.

Astute · Jan 9, 2019

Ian1779 said:
And as something Astute mentioned previously, a lot of these MP's are career politicians who in some cases were simply 'airdropped' into a safe seat to get on the ladder. They are amazingly out of touch with the membership and the own constituents.

MP's were entitled to vote as they saw fit, but once the result is done, they should really be fighting for the wishes of their constituents irrespective of their party allegiance.

As a Labour member I want to know if those MP's that sit in Leave constituencies (but voted themselves remain) have taken the time to really engage with their communities to find out why they voted leave. Were people influenced by the bus? Was it about immigration? Was it about being left behind once the industry died out in their town? Has their opinion changed over the last 2 years watching what has been going on? If it has then it might explain the approach that Labour has gone for, but I imagine that any 'research' like this has not been done to the detail that is needed to really understand the electorate properly post referendum.

And being honest none of the polling organisations have done this, nor really have the capacity to do so.

Just come across this on the BBC website. Different questions asked for polls. The one that has constantly come out on top is leave without a deal. Bottom answer constantly was referendum on accepting deal or not. People don't like the deal as we all know. Second highest was referendum on accept deal or stay in the EU. But this was nearly all remain voters that went for it. And only about 20% want it.

How voters want Brexit to be sorted out

Mucca Mad Boys · Jan 9, 2019

clint van damme said:
that's a very naïve statement if you ask me. Yes there is a lot of division caused by the first vote, to not implement it will send things to another level.
We're also seeing a rise in fascism as it is. Imagine how they would be able to use the vote not being implemented to their advantage, it doesn't bear thinking about.

There was division over the issue before 2016, during the process of Brexit negotiations and will continue to be division after the matter also. I’ve said that regardless of the outcome this year. A second referendum is not ideal at all, but it’s becoming an increasingly political necessity in my view.

Do you think once Brexit is done and dusted the divisions that currently exist will just wither away? If you genuinely believe that, I’d consider that naïve.

Cabinet ministers just today have told the PM to just call an election after March 29th if the Government loses a vote of no confidence so Brexit cannot be blocked. That will clearly polarise the political climate and deepen the divide at hand. And yes, the Government can do that because the PM decides the election date and whilst Parliament is dissolved, the government still functions and civil servants still carry out their policies until the election is over.

Astute · Jan 9, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
It’s not Labour’s opposition that’s causing the government real problems. It’s the Tory back benchers who are giving the government real problems. That’s why they can’t get it through Parliament.

For political reasons, Labour can’t support May’s deal nor a no-deal Brexit as they will get pummelled by the electorate who will desert the party. But the Tories are equally treading public opinion very lightly because there’s a lot at risk for them too.

Have you not seen the colour coded map of areas that voted leave? They are mainly Labour held areas.

Astute · Jan 9, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
There was division over the issue before 2016, during the process of Brexit negotiations and will continue to be division after the matter also. I’ve said that regardless of the outcome this year. A second referendum is not ideal at all, but it’s becoming an increasingly political necessity in my view.

Do you think once Brexit is done and dusted the divisions that currently exist will just wither away? If you genuinely believe that, I’d consider that naïve.

Cabinet ministers just today have told the PM to just call an election after March 29th if the Government loses a vote of no confidence so Brexit cannot be blocked. That will clearly polarise the political climate and deepen the divide at hand. And yes, the Government can do that because the PM decides the election date and whilst Parliament is dissolved, the government still functions and civil servants still carry out their policies until the election is over.

And you don't think you are naive thinking another referendum will unite everyone?

clint van damme · Jan 9, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
There was division over the issue before 2016, during the process of Brexit negotiations and will continue to be division after the matter also. I’ve said that regardless of the outcome this year. A second referendum is not ideal at all, but it’s becoming an increasingly political necessity in my view.

Do you think once Brexit is done and dusted the divisions that currently exist will just wither away? If you genuinely believe that, I’d consider that naïve.

Cabinet ministers just today have told the PM to just call an election after March 29th if the Government loses a vote of no confidence so Brexit cannot be blocked. That will clearly polarise the political climate and deepen the divide at hand. And yes, the Government can do that because the PM decides the election date and whilst Parliament is dissolved, the government still functions and civil servants still carry out their policies until the election is over.

No I'm not naïve enough to think the divisions will just melt away post Brexit, but I do think they won't be as bad as they will be if we don't implement the result of the referendum in some form.

And as I've said before, and there is a GE and a party performs well or even gets into government that has a 2nd referendum as one of its key policies then that lends a lot more credibility to the idea than calling for one on the back of opinion polls.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jan 9, 2019

Astute said:
And you don't think you are naive thinking another referendum will unite everyone?

I called it a best bet. I’ve never said it will lead to an idyllic political solution where everyone is happy. You’re misrepresenting my view because as you know, I’ve said EU membership will remain a divisive issue last 2019.

As the link you posted states, the two clear options on how to deal with this is either a ‘no deal’ or another referendum. Which is helpful because if May’s deal is rejected, the choice is between remaining or no deal. No one likes May’s deal. The public don’t tend to support a vote on the type of Brexit or a general election to solve this.

The data later on in the article is quite conflicting because one poll shows support for a ‘final say’ on the deal, whilst another opposes a second referendum despite being more or less the same thing. The poll that shows opposition to a second referendum is from 30th Nov-2nd Dec and a lot has happened since then, such as votes of no confidence v PM and postponing the vote of Brexit. But, that also applies to the poll which stated more support for a ‘final say’ as that was conducted in mid-Nov.

The link you posted is helpful by the way and it goes to show just how divided the political climate is. Second referendum or not, the issue just won’t go away.

skybluetony176 · Jan 9, 2019

Astute said:
Just come across this on the BBC website. Different questions asked for polls. The one that has constantly come out on top is leave without a deal. Bottom answer constantly was referendum on accepting deal or not. People don't like the deal as we all know. Second highest was referendum on accept deal or stay in the EU. But this was nearly all remain voters that went for it. And only about 20% want it.

How voters want Brexit to be sorted out

It’s conclusive on absolutely nothing though. Leave with no deal even at the point it’s been highest was still less than 30% so still doesn’t have the backing of a majority. In a two question referendum if the options were leave with no deal or find a solution the government using your own link clearly doesn’t have a mandate to take the country out of the EU with no deal. So why should they be allowed to do that?

Astute · Jan 9, 2019

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I called it a best bet. I’ve never said it will lead to an idyllic political solution where everyone is happy. You’re misrepresenting my view because as you know, I’ve said EU membership will remain a divisive issue last 2019.

As the link you posted states, the two clear options on how to deal with this is either a ‘no deal’ or another referendum. Which is helpful because if May’s deal is rejected, the choice is between remaining or no deal. No one likes May’s deal. The public don’t tend to support a vote on the type of Brexit or a general election to solve this.

The data later on in the article is quite conflicting because one poll shows support for a ‘final say’ on the deal, whilst another opposes a second referendum despite being more or less the same thing. The poll that shows opposition to a second referendum is from 30th Nov-2nd Dec and a lot has happened since then, such as votes of no confidence v PM and postponing the vote of Brexit. But, that also applies to the poll which stated more support for a ‘final say’ as that was conducted in mid-Nov.

The link you posted is helpful by the way and it goes to show just how divided the political climate is. Second referendum or not, the issue just won’t go away.

You called it the best chance of unity. Best chance of making about 50% of the UK happy but totally pissing off the other 50% has no chance of creating unity.

That is what some of us have been saying. Most don't want the May deal. Remainers don't want out of the EU. Leavers don't want to be tied to the EU. That is why May deal/another referendum only got 20%. Only leavers want the choice between the two.

But it doesn't matter. The so important MP's.....or so they think.....will decide what we do no matter what we want. Tory areas in England voted remain as a whole. Labour voters as a whole voted leave. Tory MP's are after leaving. So Labour MP's are after remaining. The Tory leader want to remain but is supposed to be leading us out of the EU. The Labour leader has always wanted out of the EU but he is pushing us to stay in the EU.

Then some wonder why it has become such a mess.

Ian1779 · Jan 9, 2019

Astute said:
Have you not seen the colour coded map of areas that voted leave? They are mainly Labour held areas.

This - and it's the difference between them holding those seats in an election. In some places where the remain vote is high they could afford to lose some remain voters as they have large majorities. But lose the leave voters in the afore mentioned areas and they are shafted.

Captain Dart · Jan 9, 2019

I see Bercow is trying his best to thwart Brexit.

Grendel · Jan 9, 2019

Captain Dart said:
I see Bercow is trying his best to thwart Brexit.

Classic remainer isn't he

SIR ERNIE · Jan 9, 2019

Captain Dart said:
I see Bercow is trying his best to thwart Brexit.

Him and his fellow remainers can't stop it. They might succeed in delaying it this time round but they can't stop it.

Grappa · Jan 9, 2019

Government defeated again. Oh dear.

skybluetony176 · Jan 9, 2019

Got to laugh at some leavers.

What do we want?

Democracy.

When do we want it?

After a no deal brexit has been signed off and completed.

Astute · Jan 9, 2019

Interesting.

Sounds like May deal or no deal is now favourite

Reality Check: Can Parliament stop a no-deal Brexit?

skybluetony176 · Jan 9, 2019

Astute said:
Interesting.

Sounds like May deal or no deal is now favourite

Reality Check: Can Parliament stop a no-deal Brexit?

If you read your link it explains that under the Lisbon Treaty article 50 can be extended or even revoked and a U.K. MP can trigger the mechanism to extend the date. So the reality is the position hasn’t changed. We’re not leaving on the 29th of March no ifs no buts.

skybluetony176 · Jan 9, 2019

How many defeats in the commons has the government suffered over brexit now?

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Jan 9, 2019

I've taken Herman Goring off ignore . He hasn't been on here for at least an hour . Is he dead ?

Grendel · Jan 9, 2019

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
I've taken Herman Goring off ignore . He hasn't been on here for at least an hour . Is he dead ?

No he’s pretending to be - skinheads in the area

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Jan 9, 2019

He's a modern day Rutger Hauer .

Sick Boy · Jan 9, 2019

Astute said:
You called it the best chance of unity. Best chance of making about 50% of the UK happy but totally pissing off the other 50% has no chance of creating unity.

That is what some of us have been saying. Most don't want the May deal. Remainers don't want out of the EU. Leavers don't want to be tied to the EU. That is why May deal/another referendum only got 20%. Only leavers want the choice between the two.

But it doesn't matter. The so important MP's.....or so they think.....will decide what we do no matter what we want. Tory areas in England voted remain as a whole. Labour voters as a whole voted leave. Tory MP's are after leaving. So Labour MP's are after remaining. The Tory leader want to remain but is supposed to be leading us out of the EU. The Labour leader has always wanted out of the EU but he is pushing us to stay in the EU.

Then some wonder why it has become such a mess.

Which were the Tory areas in England that voted remain?

Astute · Jan 9, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Which were the Tory areas in England that voted remain?

No idea.

But each time I put the map up with two colours....one for voted remain the other leave.....you never questioned what I said once. But without putting the map up you question me each time until I put it up again. As you know the vast majority of areas voted leave in England and Wales. All of Scotland was remain and most of Ireland was remain.

Coventry had quite a large leave vote if it helps.

Grendel · Jan 9, 2019

Astute said:
No idea.

But each time I put the map up with two colours....one for voted remain the other leave.....you never questioned what I said once. But without putting the map up you question me each time until I put it up again. As you know the vast majority of areas voted leave in England and Wales. All of Scotland was remain and most of Ireland was remain.

Coventry had quite a large leave vote if it helps.

More conservative constituencies voted leave than labour but there’s not much in it

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 9, 2019

Grendel said:
More conservative constituencies voted leave than labour but there’s not much in it

But how would they vote now?

Astute · Jan 10, 2019

Grendel said:
More conservative constituencies voted leave than labour but there’s not much in it

That is only because they had more to start with.

But when you split it down to areas the North is nearly all leave. What makes me laugh is with Boston. The usual culprits on here were trying to tell me how wrong I was about Boston. My step dad would most probably still be alive if it hadn't. Boston gave the biggest leave vote in the whole of the UK. This backs up what I have been saying. Those affected the most voted leave. Those with the most to lose won't accept the result.

EU Referendum Results

Astute · Jan 10, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
But how would they vote now?

Your guess is as good as mine. And a lot more accurate than others on here would want you to believe.

Sick Boy · Jan 10, 2019

Astute said:
No idea.

But each time I put the map up with two colours....one for voted remain the other leave.....you never questioned what I said once. But without putting the map up you question me each time until I put it up again. As you know the vast majority of areas voted leave in England and Wales. All of Scotland was remain and most of Ireland was remain.

Coventry had quite a large leave vote if it helps.

Why are you attempting to play the victim yet again, it was a simple question to a statement you made.

Sick Boy · Jan 10, 2019

Astute said:
That is only because they had more to start with.

But when you split it down to areas the North is nearly all leave. What makes me laugh is with Boston. The usual culprits on here were trying to tell me how wrong I was about Boston. My step dad would most probably still be alive if it hadn't. Boston gave the biggest leave vote in the whole of the UK. This backs up what I have been saying. Those affected the most voted leave. Those with the most to lose won't accept the result.

EU Referendum Results

The south east of England - excluding London -had more leave voters, you’re trying to construct a narrative that simply isn’t true.

A lot of these areas have no doubt been neglected by our Londoncentric governments, to try and somehow try and link that to the EU is just giving successive governments a free pass.

Astute · Jan 10, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Why are you attempting to play the victim yet again, it was a simple question to a statement you made.

Playing the victim? What are you going on about now? Explain how you made a massive leap from what I post to what you accuse me of for once. This crap is getting very tedious.

You are the victim. You have told us enough how you are the victim. You have told us how people voted against you and your family. Yes I feel sorry for you and your circumstances. But your circumstances are no reason to come out with things that are not based on the truth all the time. Neither of us want out if the EU. The difference between us is I try and work out what is happening all the time. I look at what has happened previously. I try and work out what will happen going forward. You just search for every positivity in us remaining and big up the EU. You defend them to the last.

Then you accuse me of stupid things all the time because I won't agree with you all the time.

Astute · Jan 10, 2019

Sick Boy said:
The south east of England - excluding London -had more leave voters, you’re trying to construct a narrative that simply isn’t true.

A lot of these areas have no doubt been neglected by our Londoncentric governments, to try and somehow try and link that to the EU is just giving successive governments a free pass.

Here we go again with your baseless accusations.

Point out where I have blamed the EU or even tried to link it to them.

Sick Boy · Jan 10, 2019

Astute said:
Playing the victim? What are you going on about now? Explain how you made a massive leap from what I post to what you accuse me of for once. This crap is getting very tedious.

You are the victim. You have told us enough how you are the victim. You have told us how people voted against you and your family. Yes I feel sorry for you and your circumstances. But your circumstances are no reason to come out with things that are not based on the truth all the time. Neither of us want out if the EU. The difference between us is I try and work out what is happening all the time. I look at what has happened previously. I try and work out what will happen going forward. You just search for every positivity in us remaining and big up the EU. You defend them to the last.

Then you accuse me of stupid things all the time because I won't agree with you all the time.

Your starting going on as though I was attacking you. I don’t believe people voted against myself and my family, more so against Eastern European migrants. However some of the rhetoric on here and both in the press has attempted to blame migration for the country’s woes and scapegoating immigrants.

I also have managed to get out of the country and am already looking forward to weekends on Lake Garda from around May

Sick Boy · Jan 10, 2019

Astute said:
Here we go again with your baseless accusations.

Point out where I have blamed the EU or even tried to link it to them.

Avoiding your claims about the south east being for remain, I see. You’ve continually tried to link EU migration for the country’s issues, including Boston.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (33 Viewers)

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