The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (10 Viewers)

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 19, 2018

CCFCSteve said:
Ive said before, barring the backstop, Mays withdrawal agreement is better than the alternative available options, what the ultimate agreement would be though, who knows. The lack of will to find and/or get to a solution is unbelievable ie the EU rightly cant allow the backstop to be unilaterally ended by the UK as it might leave no option other than a hard border, the UK are concerned that the EU will find excuses to lock us in forever (unlikely from what Ive heard but still a genuine concern) so we should have proposed that a significant proportion of the £38bn is payable on the reaching of a trade agreement and/or exit from the backstop, to incentivise a sensible conclusion. Like with any negotiation there needs to be potential benefit and pain on both sides of the argument.

Regarding Soubry, you miss the point, as does she. By all means tell the PM (and her constituency individually if she feels necessary) in private of her concerns and that she will be left with no choice by to resign the whip if they proceed with a "no deal", however, doing all this in public, IN THE MIDDLE OF A NEGOTIATION, is weakening our position and actually making reaching an agreement harder and/or less likely. Most MPs on both sides of the argument appear to prefer to posture in public, rather than actually work to get a deal done.

We’re not negotiating on a Brexit deal though, so people aren’t undermining a negotiation. A deal was ready to be tabled to Parliament, but was deferred because it was going to get defeated heavily. The PM’s own party calls a vote of no confidence in her, she won that, and tried to get concessions from the EU, none were forthcoming. So right now, the options on the table is May’s deal, or no deal. With May’s deal facing certain defeat in the Commons, because it hasn’t reached any concessions, the UK faces a ‘no deal’ Brexit. The opposition and people who disagree with this course of action have a duty to stand up to the government. Theresa May is playing her own political games by deferring the vote because the less time the country has before the deadline in March, the more she can try to strong arm parliament into backing a deal.

I’m happy to agree that May’s deal is probably one of the best deals we could’ve got. However, it still relegates the UK to a vassal state of the EU. It’s not an authentic Brexit and the public should get a vote deciding whether or not it wants to continue with Brexit.

Astute · Dec 19, 2018

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I’m happy to agree that May’s deal is probably one of the best deals we could’ve got. However, it still relegates the UK to a vassal state of the EU. It’s not an authentic Brexit and the public should get a vote deciding whether or not it wants to continue with Brexit.

It is an absolutely diabolical deal. That is why hardly anyone likes it. It is neither in or out of the EU. We lose the slight say we have but end up paying just the same. And everything stays the same.

At least the no deal Brexit plans put in place by the EU will make sure nothing changes in hardly any way for about another year. This gives them another year to put a deal together that benefits all sides.

Otis · Dec 19, 2018

'Stupid people?' Or 'Stupid woman?'

First time I watched it, it clearly came across to me as 'Stupid people', but on second viewing I could see why some could read it as 'Stupid woman'.

Mcbean · Dec 19, 2018

First post in here so treat me gently - ITS A FUCKIN APPALLING DEAL - you can see the smiles on Juncker and Barnier whose salary we are financing - whatever they are happy with stinks for UK - so we tell them to fuck off - Maggie would have pulled the drawbar up and said you come here to negotiate

Astute · Dec 19, 2018

Otis said:
'Stupid people?' Or 'Stupid woman?'

First time I watched it, it clearly came across to me as 'Stupid people', but on second viewing I could see why some could read it as 'Stupid woman'.

He certainly looked to have said stupid woman. And he isn't wrong either.

This political correctness has gone too far. He would have been OK calling her a stupid person. But she is also a woman. So do we have to be gender neutral to everyone now?

Astute · Dec 19, 2018

Mcbean said:
First post in here so treat me gently - ITS A FUCKIN APPALLING DEAL - you can see the smiles on Juncker and Barnier whose salary we are financing - whatever they are happy with stinks for UK - so we tell them to fuck off - Maggie would have pulled the drawbar up and said you come here to negotiate

Maggie did many things that were wrong. But she never once let Europe take the piss.

Westendlad · Dec 19, 2018

Otis said:
'Stupid people?' Or 'Stupid woman?'

First time I watched it, it clearly came across to me as 'Stupid people', but on second viewing I could see why some could read it as 'Stupid woman'.

Heard it on the radio and it was reported as 'stupid woman' but when i saw it its deffo 'stupid people'.........Surely a vote is needed on here......Whoaaaa Just read Astute's post and he reckon's 'stupid person'.....Think he could right so f the vote !

Westendlad · Dec 19, 2018

Mcbean said:
First post in here so treat me gently - ITS A FUCKIN APPALLING DEAL - you can see the smiles on Juncker and Barnier whose salary we are financing - whatever they are happy with stinks for UK - so we tell them to fuck off - Maggie would have pulled the drawbar up and said you come here to negotiate

Post more on here Mcbean.....More i say !!

Otis · Dec 19, 2018

Astute said:
He certainly looked to have said stupid woman. And he isn't wrong either.

This political correctness has gone too far. He would have been OK calling her a stupid person. But she is also a woman. So do we have to be gender neutral to everyone now?

Seemed like 'Stupid people ' to me, but he is indeed not wrong if he said the latter.

She's not going to be fondly remembered when she has gone and may (no pun intended) end up leaving this country in a right old state and one hell of a mess.

Grendel · Dec 19, 2018

Otis said:
Seemed like 'Stupid people ' to me, but he is indeed not wrong if he said the latter.

She's not going to be fondly remembered when she has gone and may (no pun intended) end up leaving this country in a right old state and one hell of a mess.

Do you believe Mr Corbyn could have done better?

Otis · Dec 19, 2018

Not really.

Needed someone really tough.

Ashdown · Dec 19, 2018

I'm afraid these proposals on immigration post Brexit drawn up by a foreign born individual and his crowd are a joke. They are just making a complete mockery of it all. The establishment and ruling classes are predictably ignoring the will of the people. There will be no Brexit in reality, just a fudge of a deal to try and con the masses but there will be no changes. The UK population is burgeoning out of control as the lies continue. Fucking sick of it all now, no statesmen or women to do what's right for the British people, just career politicians and PC arseholes doing the bidding for the super rich...........still they will be able to suppress wages now forever more for the low skilled and millions will struggle to buy their own house for the foreseeable.
The EU meddling in Italy's budget just says it all............... its a monster now !

Nick · Dec 19, 2018

I'd have had more respect if he had called her a c**t or a twat.

I'd vote for him just based on that.

Grendel · Dec 19, 2018

Otis said:
Not really.

Needed someone really tough.

Did you? Tough implies forcing through a deal and ignoring the wishes of the 48% doesn’t it?

Westendlad · Dec 19, 2018

Otis said:
Not really.

Needed someone really tough.

Otis · Dec 19, 2018

Grendel said:
Did you? Tough implies forcing through a deal and ignoring the wishes of the 48% doesn’t it?

No. Tough means getting a better deal.

Otis · Dec 19, 2018

Westendlad said:
View attachment 11189

Was thinking of someone more human to be honest.

Westendlad · Dec 19, 2018

Otis said:
Was thinking of someone more human to be honest.

Hey hey hey... She had great legs back in the day .........Name one PM in the last 40 yrs who had more balls than her.....Just one..

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 19, 2018

Astute said:
It is an absolutely diabolical deal. That is why hardly anyone likes it. It is neither in or out of the EU. We lose the slight say we have but end up paying just the same. And everything stays the same.

At least the no deal Brexit plans put in place by the EU will make sure nothing changes in hardly any way for about another year. This gives them another year to put a deal together that benefits all sides.

In your opinion, how could it be better?

I’ve been pretty clear that I think this is a bad deal. This is because I agree with the premise that this deal, in its current form, makes us a vassal of the EU. Therefore, I agree it’s better to remain a full member than a ‘vassal state’ — a view held by Brexiteers, most notably, Rees-Mogg.

It is a fantasy that someone like Maggie Thatcher would’ve done a better job. We’re in the weaker negotiating position, and it’s delusional to think we could’ve ‘pulled up the drawbar’ and asked the EU to come to us.

Grendel · Dec 19, 2018

Otis said:
Was thinking of someone more human to be honest.

Thatcher would have at least enjoyed the negotiation and left the civil servants at home. That said beneath the facade she was a liberal europhile

Astute · Dec 19, 2018

Mucca Mad Boys said:
In your opinion, how could it be better?

I’ve been pretty clear that I think this is a bad deal. This is because I agree with the premise that this deal, in its current form, makes us a vassal of the EU. Therefore, I agree it’s better to remain a full member than a ‘vassal state’ — a view held by Brexiteers, most notably, Rees-Mogg.

It is a fantasy that someone like Maggie Thatcher would’ve done a better job. We’re in the weaker negotiating position, and it’s delusional to think we could’ve ‘pulled up the drawbar’ and asked the EU to come to us.

We were in a weak position because we sent weak people and those who don't want to leave to try and negotiate.

Now it is starting to look like there is a good chance of a no deal they have lightened what they are saying. The EU has said hardly anything will change for a year after us leaving. That is their no deal plan. It was supposed to be Armageddon from day one. This will give a good chance to make a proper deal.

Astute · Dec 19, 2018

Mucca Mad Boys said:
It is a fantasy that someone like Maggie Thatcher would’ve done a better job.

Maggie got a massive rebate off Europe when they said we couldn't have one. She took no shit from anyone. She never got called the Iron Lady for no reason. This time we sent May and idiots that didn't seem to have a clue what was going on.

Sick Boy · Dec 19, 2018

Mcbean said:
First post in here so treat me gently - ITS A FUCKIN APPALLING DEAL - you can see the smiles on Juncker and Barnier whose salary we are financing - whatever they are happy with stinks for UK - so we tell them to fuck off - Maggie would have pulled the drawbar up and said you come here to negotiate

Apart from she was a massive europhile

dancers lance · Dec 19, 2018

clint van damme said:
but there's a point where the uber rich take the piss and the mantra of certain political parties that they are the party for working people becomes just empty rhetoric.

Wanting an end to tax avoiding by corporations who pay fuck all tax and shit wages which have to then be subsidised with benefits from the tax receipts of people like me and you so said corporations can record sky high profits isn't a yearning for communism, it's wanting an end to the working man having the piss taken out of us.

I agree Clint, the problem was the wording, when people start to talk about a forced redistribution of money from the wealthy it becomes very easy to make the comparison. IMO we should be having a democratic debate on how we achieve a more equal society when it comes to wealth, like giving employees a share of profit, giving normal staff members a voice on the board and scaling wages inline with company profits or targets.

Westendlad · Dec 19, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Apart from she was a massive europhile

Isn't/wasn't May ?

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 19, 2018

Astute said:
We were in a weak position because we sent weak people and those who don't want to leave to try and negotiate.

Now it is starting to look like there is a good chance of a no deal they have lightened what they are saying. The EU has said hardly anything will change for a year after us leaving. That is their no deal plan. It was supposed to be Armageddon from day one. This will give a good chance to make a proper deal.

Vague.

What don’t you like about the deal specifically?

To save me quoting your other post, completely different contexts. Leaving the European Union without a deal will cause immense economic disruption. Government projections have a ‘no deal’ scenario being an economic catastrophe, losing 9.3% of GDP by the 2030s. With this in mind, it seems like it’s in our best interests to avoid a ‘no deal’ scenario, which inadvertently puts in a weaker negotiating position.

Sick Boy · Dec 19, 2018

Westendlad said:
Isn't/wasn't May ?

I would say Thatcher was much more of a Europhile compared to May. I’d imagine Thatcher wouldn’t have ever agreed to the referendum in the first place.

Westendlad · Dec 19, 2018

Sick Boy said:
I would say Thatcher was much more of a Europhile compared to May. I’d imagine Thatcher wouldn’t have ever agreed to the referendum in the first place.

Nor did May...

Astute · Dec 19, 2018

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Vague.

What don’t you like about the deal specifically?

To save me quoting your other post, completely different contexts. Leaving the European Union without a deal will cause immense economic disruption. Government projections have a ‘no deal’ scenario being an economic catastrophe, losing 9.3% of GDP by the 2030s. With this in mind, it seems like it’s in our best interests to avoid a ‘no deal’ scenario, which inadvertently puts in a weaker negotiating position.

What is good about it?

Astute · Dec 19, 2018

Sick Boy said:
I would say Thatcher was much more of a Europhile compared to May. I’d imagine Thatcher wouldn’t have ever agreed to the referendum in the first place.

But she wouldn't have handed as much power to them. And she wouldn't have let them take the piss. Also she wouldn't have let the wrongdoings by those in charge of the EU go with no retribution.

CCFCSteve · Dec 19, 2018

Mucca Mad Boys said:
We’re not negotiating on a Brexit deal though, so people aren’t undermining a negotiation. A deal was ready to be tabled to Parliament, but was deferred because it was going to get defeated heavily. The PM’s own party calls a vote of no confidence in her, she won that, and tried to get concessions from the EU, none were forthcoming. So right now, the options on the table is May’s deal, or no deal. With May’s deal facing certain defeat in the Commons, because it hasn’t reached any concessions, the UK faces a ‘no deal’ Brexit. The opposition and people who disagree with this course of action have a duty to stand up to the government. Theresa May is playing her own political games by deferring the vote because the less time the country has before the deadline in March, the more she can try to strong arm parliament into backing a deal.

I’m happy to agree that May’s deal is probably one of the best deals we could’ve got. However, it still relegates the UK to a vassal state of the EU. It’s not an authentic Brexit and the public should get a vote deciding whether or not it wants to continue with Brexit.

The negotiations will still be ongoing, even now. I was also talking about the whole process though. The way politicians have continually aired their grievances and made threats in public has no doubt weakened our negotiating position.

Ashdown · Dec 19, 2018

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Vague.

What don’t you like about the deal specifically?

To save me quoting your other post, completely different contexts. Leaving the European Union without a deal will cause immense economic disruption. Government projections have a ‘no deal’ scenario being an economic catastrophe, losing 9.3% of GDP by the 2030s. With this in mind, it seems like it’s in our best interests to avoid a ‘no deal’ scenario, which inadvertently puts in a weaker negotiating position.

Oh stop believing all the propaganda you bore !

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 19, 2018

Astute said:
What is good about it?

Don’t deflect. You have issues with it, what are they?

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 19, 2018

Ashdown said:
Oh stop believing all the propaganda you bore !

Given the amount I’ve quoted that famous Remainer Jacob Rees-Mogg, I doubt I’m buying anyone’s propaganda. I’ve reviewed the evidence as I see it, and consider it better to Remain in the EU — I don’t consider myself a Europhile at all.

With all due respect, there are some somewhat reasonable arguments for a ‘no deal’ Brexit, which I disagree with, but you’re yet to present any.

Don’t degrade the debate calling people ‘bores’ or insisting they’re buying into propaganda just because you disagree with someone.

CCFCSteve said:
The negotiations will still be ongoing, even now. I was also talking about the whole process though. The way politicians have continually aired their grievances and made threats in public has no doubt weakened our negotiating position.

Given that a vote in Parliament is less than a month away, it’s unlikely that anything fundamental will change. The EU has also stated its unwillingness to renegotiate.

CCFCSteve · Dec 19, 2018

Mcbean said:
First post in here so treat me gently - ITS A FUCKIN APPALLING DEAL - you can see the smiles on Juncker and Barnier whose salary we are financing - whatever they are happy with stinks for UK - so we tell them to fuck off - Maggie would have pulled the drawbar up and said you come here to negotiate

Its a compromise and probably reflects the split in the vote.

All this vassal state stuff appears to forget the fact that if we want to sell goods into the EU, under whatever agreement, they will need to meet their regulations and standards. I personally think we would retain a majority these standards unilaterally anyway, so is it as big an issue as hard Brexiteers make out ?!

People voted Leave for a variety of reasons. A number have been addresssed with the deal on the table, whilst it also tries to reflect remainers concerns. The major sticking point is the backstop/hard border which I believe will be surmountable (via technology) in future.

It’s not a great deal by any stretch but its a compromise. Nothing was going to deliver when the extremes on both sides don’t want to back down. They both need to start living in the real world !

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