The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (16 Viewers)

Otis · Dec 14, 2018

I try not to get too involved in this thread, because there is an awful lot of repetition and a lot of going round and round in circles.

Has a anyone at all changed their viewpoint on this thread and gone from remain to leave, or leave to remain? Anyone?

I find it all very simple (though maybe I am just simple).

I voted to remain, but fully accepted the will of the people.

Surely now though, things have changed. They very clearly have.

Did any of us envisage this mess 2 and a half years on?

Seems obvious this is a bad deal. a vast majority of MP's say it is. Labour, SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Green Party, the Lib Dems and the DUP all say it is. Many, many Tories say it is.

Real danger now of no deal. Is that what the public really want? Is that what they voted for? A Brexit at any cost?

If we were all told we will be worse off after Brexit would people then still have voted leave?

I have never called for another referendum, but surely all options now have to be on the table.

As I say, I haven't called for another referendum, but if there is to be one, I wouldn't see it as any kind of betrayal at all.

Things have changed and I don't think any of us thought we would be here, right where we are now with just over 3 months to go did we?

I think everyone agrees it is a mess.

All options to extricate us from this mess have to be considered don't they?

At the very least the government can put this deal to the people and see if they are happy with it or not.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Remainers she her as a traitor? Was is this, a playground?

So remainers were happy with a remainer taking us out?

And yes you are right. The amount of remainers that have gone as low a level as the playground is sad.

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
So remainers were happy with a remainer taking us out?

And yes you are right. The amount of remainers that have gone as low a level as the playground is sad.

To label someone a traitor to either side is pathetic. Ahh yes, claiming to be neutral, and obviously you are only able to call out remainers - hahaha

Ashdown · Dec 14, 2018

Look, surely we have to walk away from the only bullshit deal the EU are agreeing to and digging in their heals on. It's time to walk and say thanks, we tried but you can stuff your bias divorce settlement and throw things up in the air for them bastards. The only ones suffering with this chaos is us right now so it's time to let them have something to think about.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I attacked horse racing and blood sport you moron not the U.K. I never mentioned anyone else in the EU because someone was trying to say that we don’t have a culture of being cruel to animals when we clearly do and it’s spread across all walks of society. That’s not the same as saying that the EU doesn’t have a problem and only we do because the whole world has a problem from dancing bears in Russia to elephant rides in Asia. You’re a moron if you think any corner of the world doesn’t have a culture of cruelty to animals because it’s clearly a worldwide phenomenon. You brought up horse meat you idiot not me so stop bullshitting. And it doesn’t matter horse, cow, pig, sheep, cat or dog. You eat any of them you’re eating a sentient being who all have an equal right not to be eaten regardless of where that is. Not eating horse meat doesn’t make us better than the French it just makes us fussier eaters.

Bullshit again.

So where was the badger baiting? Where was the fox hunting? Where is the Grand national held where you said horses get killed every year?

Not fussy eaters so there is nothing wrong with the French eating it? Next time you will say it is just as OK to eat dogs and cats as they are also animals.

I brought up eating horse meat? Would you like me to prove you to be a liar again?

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 14, 2018

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg was right when he said the PM has lost the confidence of Parliament. The government is in a position where it cannot pass the deal of what it was elected to do. The result here is the government seeking a renewed mandate and calling a general election. However, with the timeline of the scheduled exit, that wouldn’t solve the issue completely. So, the logical conclusion would be a second referendum to sort the issue.

Leave won by a slender margin in 2016, and there was elements of deception in their campaign and promises made that couldn’t be kept. If this was an elected government, they’d be held accountable here. Regardless, in 2018 the public knows what Brexit looks like so it can either reject or accept Brexit with greater confidence than in 2016. Public opinion changes, and if it chose to change its mind in another referendum, it has the right to do so. Just as the result in 2016 was legitimate, so would the result of a second one? They’re both plebiscites. If polls are accurate, which of course they can be wrong, Remain would actually win by a larger margin than Leave did in 2016. If the public was still committed to Brexit, then so be it, the Brexiteers would be strengthened which is good for delivering Brexit. On the other hand, if the public changes its mind and rejects Brexit, it can do. The only reason to deny a referendum is people who are politically motivated Brexiteers who don’t want to risk losing. This isn’t really about following the ‘people’s will’ because if it was, the public would vote Leave again. It’s plain and simple.

Good reasons for a second referendum:

1. The government is physically incapable to deliver Brexit.
2. The 2016 referendum didn’t define what Brexit would look like. Public has the right to accept or reject the terms of any agreement.
3. Polls indicate a vote now would flip the result, by a larger margin than that ‘people’s will’ of 2016.

You’re wrong when you say there are no ‘good reasons’ for a second referendum.

I don’t think number 3 is legitimate. I do think there should have been a larger proportion to 51.7-;48.3 for such a momentous decision

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Sick Boy said:
To label someone a traitor to either side is pathetic. Ahh yes, claiming to be neutral, and obviously you are only able to call out remainers - hahaha

So it wasn't you mentioning playgrounds when talking about remainers not happy with May?

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 14, 2018

dutchman said:
They're perfectly capable they just refuse to do it because they've been EU-stooges all along.

Paranoia

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 14, 2018

dutchman said:
They're perfectly capable they just refuse to do it because they've been EU-stooges all along.

Please stop talking nonsense, you’re just wrong. Its mainly the DUP and ERG MPs (Brexiteer Tory backbenchers) which is stopping Theresa May’s Brexit deal.

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 14, 2018

Ashdown said:
Look, surely we have to walk away from the only bullshit deal the EU are agreeing to and digging in their heals on. It's time to walk and say thanks, we tried but you can stuff your bias divorce settlement and throw things up in the air for them bastards. The only ones suffering with this chaos is us right now so it's time to let them have something to think about.

Do you just ignore the evidence? If we walk away it will affect us more than anyone else. Sure it will affect nations in the Eu but the hit is split across 27 countries. You know this so why are you ignoring it?

Give me the next steps to leaving without a deal and we’ll listen. If you can’t fhen let’s agree a no deal would be a disaster

Covstu · Dec 14, 2018

Otis said:
I try not to get too involved in this thread, because there is an awful lot of repetition and a lot of going round and round in circles.

Has a anyone at all changed their viewpoint on this thread and gone from remain to leave, or leave to remain? Anyone?

I find it all very simple (though maybe I am just simple).

I voted to remain, but fully accepted the will of the people.

Surely now though, things have changed. They very clearly have.

Did any of us envisage this mess 2 and a half years on?

Seems obvious this is a bad deal. a vast majority of MP's say it is. Labour, SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Green Party, the Lib Dems and the DUP all say it is. Many, many Tories say it is.

Real danger now of no deal. Is that what the public really want? Is that what they voted for? A Brexit at any cost?

If we were all told we will be worse off after Brexit would people then still have voted leave?

I have never called for another referendum, but surely all options now have to be on the table.

As I say, I haven't called for another referendum, but if there is to be one, I wouldn't see it as any kind of betrayal at all.

Things have changed and I don't think any of us thought we would be here, right where we are now with just over 3 months to go did we?

I think everyone agrees it is a mess.

All options to extricate us from this mess have to be considered don't they?

At the very least the government can put this deal to the people and see if they are happy with it or not.

Yep I am watching this thread as I tend not to be overly knowledgeable on the subject and there seems to be lots of ‘experts’ on this one!

I don’t think any politician knew the exit would be so difficult and for me it just appears that no one wants to make it work as they can see the opportunity to take power back to their respective parties. I don’t believe if Labour were in power and negotiating an exit that we would be any better off as the Torres would just be vetoing everything they would put on the table like we have at the moment.

I voted remain also and still hold that stance but unsure if a lot of views have changed from 2 years ago, the issue is that we only see the extreme ends of the stories that come out which polarise opinions so basically media are saying the left are snowflakes and the right are racists which we all know there are a million shades of grey between that story. The country has gotten itself into a shit state but it’s being used as a political football for political gain with our major parties. I would like to see us put this back out to the people as I quite frankly do not trust anyone in the HOP at the moment

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 14, 2018

I wonder if any of Theresa May’s advisor’s are telling her to just sign it.

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 14, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
I don’t think number 3 is legitimate. I do think there should have been a larger proportion to 51.7-;48.3 for such a momentous decision

It goes deeper than polling numbers. Last time I looked, a vote tomorrow would yield a 55% win for Remain (note: I don’t take this as gospel). This suggests a couple of things, that the public are not happy with a Brexit process and/or the deal May is bringing back to the country. Public opinion doesn’t tend to shift about 7% to the other side over the course of 2 years. So the government should not sleep walk into Brexit because contexts have changed and the government needs nenewed consent to finalise Brexit.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Sick Boy said:
To label someone a traitor to either side is pathetic. Ahh yes, claiming to be neutral, and obviously you are only able to call out remainers - hahaha

Yes it is pathetic.

Call out remainers? This comment is pathetic. I said about leavers and remainers in the same comment. But strangely enough you only noticed the remainer part.

So all remainers trust May? This is basically what you are saying. Because you are saying so.

martcov · Dec 14, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
Don’t worry mart, you’ll get your second referendum and Remain will win.
You’ll celebrate stopping Brexit but you will only have delayed it.

There is no guarantee that remain will win. If Brexit is cancelled, then we won’t be leaving in the foreseeable future. No one will want to go through this crap again.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Please stop talking nonsense, you’re just wrong. Its mainly the DUP and ERG MPs (Brexiteer Tory backbenchers) which is stopping Theresa May’s Brexit deal.

It is Mays deal being a bad deal that is stopping it going through.

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
So remainers were happy with a remainer taking us out?

And yes you are right. The amount of remainers that have gone as low a level as the playground is sad.

@Astute Yeah you’re definitely calling out both sides above - hahaha!

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
Bullshit again.

So where was the badger baiting? Where was the fox hunting? Where is the Grand national held where you said horses get killed every year?

Not fussy eaters so there is nothing wrong with the French eating it? Next time you will say it is just as OK to eat dogs and cats as they are also animals.

I brought up eating horse meat? Would you like me to prove you to be a liar again?

The UK had a history of eating horse meat up until the 1930s, I’m not sure what qualifies one animal as being okay to eat and not the other.

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
So all remainers trust May? This is basically what you are saying. Because you are saying so.

Errr...no I’m not, yet again it’s your warped attempts at putting words into someone’s mouth.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Sick Boy said:
The UK had a history of eating horse meat up until the 1930s, I’m not sure what qualifies one animal as being okay to eat and not the other.

Ask Tony. He moaned about us liking horse racing and how they go for horse meat. He had a go at our badger baiting. He had a go at our fox hunting. Trying to work out what it has to do with Brexit.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Sick Boy said:
@Astute Yeah you’re definitely calling out both sides above - hahaha!

Yes your normal line.

How about quoting my post where I made the comment? Then say I only mentioned one side as you always say. And then tell me which part of it is wrong.

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
Ask Tony. He moaned about us liking horse racing and how they go for horse meat. He had a go at our badger baiting. He had a go at our fox hunting. Trying to work out what it has to do with Brexit.

I agree, it has nothing to do with Brexit but it wasn’t him who originally brought it up.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Errr...no I’m not, yet again it’s your warped attempts at putting words into someone’s mouth.

No it isn't.

So I say it again. Quote the post that you pretend is against remainers. Show the post to be one sided like you say. Then say which part is untruthful. Because you are now denying that it is untruthful after saying that it was.

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
Yes your normal line.

How about quoting my post where I made the comment? Then say I only mentioned one side as you always say. And then tell me which part of it is wrong.

I was originally referring to the post I quoted above, hence why I quoted it

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Sick Boy said:
I agree, it has nothing to do with Brexit but it wasn’t him who originally brought it up.

Who was it then?

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
No it isn't.

So I say it again. Quote the post that you pretend is against remainers. Show the post to be one sided like you say. Then say which part is untruthful. Because you are now denying that it is untruthful after saying that it was.

Ffs I’ve already quoted it above.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Sick Boy said:
I was originally referring to the post I quoted above, hence why I quoted it

Quoted what?

You said my post was anti remainers. Your normal line. Then you said I was putting words in your mouth because I questioned your opinion of it.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Ffs I’ve already quoted it above.

The post you had a go at?

Do i need to put it up for you?

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
Who was it then?

Someone generalising and trying to portray 100s of millions of people as being cruel to animals. Weird how you tend to agree with their posts and you didn’t call them out on it.

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
It is Mays deal being a bad deal that is stopping it going through.

... it is a bad deal, which is telling about the state of Brexit since it isn't actually that bad all things considered. How would you break the deadlock? I'm interested in anyone's opinion.

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
The post you had a go at?

Do i need to put it up for you?

I’ve already quoted it above, it’s there in black and white. No mention of leavers, just your usual remainer bashing.

clint van damme · Dec 14, 2018

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
There's not a single justified argument for a second referendum. Just because it gets shouted out a lot doesn't mean anything sensible.

If Brexit did ever get overturned then it would confirm what a lot of people had thought in the first place. You're simply not allowed to leave the EU. Considering the ones on here that wax lyrical about how everyone is becoming Nazis - I'd say the above is actually exactly the kind of behaviour they'd be proud of.

Maybe as leave won, there could be another vote with a list of options to choose from, but only the winners of the 2016 referendum can vote? That can then get implemented. I guess that's fair...

I've seen some well presented arguments for the case for a second referendum but none that have convinced me it is the right thing to do so I still don't support the idea.

I haven't seen one fact based salient argument for Brexit. Just pie in the sky nonsense with no basis in fact or reality.

Astute · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
This was always going to be the problem of having a pro EU organising a leave deal. Deep down she doesn't want to do it. There is a lack of trust in her all round. Remainers see her as a traitor. Leavers don't believe she wants to make a deal. The opposition leader who has always wanted out of the EU now says he wants us in. The EU sees massive divisions in the UK. And they have taken full advantage.

Here it is again SB.

So which part is untrue?

Which part is having a go at remainers like you have said?

Sick Boy · Dec 14, 2018

Astute said:
Quoted what?

You said my post was anti remainers. Your normal line. Then you said I was putting words in your mouth because I questioned your opinion of it.

You started going on about remainers and some nonsense to do with May

martcov · Dec 14, 2018

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
No, the Nazis are the ones telling everyone else how to vote.

It is insane that the result can not be respected.

A narrow result on a binary question. Not able to get consensus on what leave is. Country divided. Economy affected by uncertainty. Campaign violations. Dark money. Foreigners influencing and manipulating. US and Russian. Why?

And you say it is insane to question leave? I don’t respect the result at all now. More and more is coming out including the collusion with the Trump camp and meetings with Russians. A major trade competitor on a purely selfish mission favouring the richest in society, and a major adversary backing leave, versus our European allies hoping for remain. Insane? No it is rational to question what is going on.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (16 Viewers)

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