The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
ID cards do nothing to limit immigration from the EU. All they do is allow you to track the numbers better (at cost to the UK government / taxpayer). You talk about leave disinformation (and yes there is some of it) but the story you've posted is remain disinformation.

You can see if someone outstayed the 90 days. You can stop people claiming benefits when they are not entitled to claim them after 90 days. You can control Minimum wage more strictly to stop wage undercutting. I cannot understand objections to providing id to claim benefits. If I wanted to get money from a bank account, I would have to have a bank card. We are the only country in the bloc without ID cards and we moan about benefit abuse and think EU citizens are claiming things they aren’t entitled to. So, wreck the economy instead of introducing ID Cards.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
It was sent to every household in the UK, presumably using the electoral roll. Some academic studies show that it did have some impact.
How the government’s pro-remain leaflet shaped the EU referendum | SPERI

That is not targeting. The leave.eu social media campaign targeted people they could influence. They didn’t bother with ones they knew had already made up their minds. Sending everyone a leaflet would get the undecided as well, but it was before the campaign got under way and theses people were hit by micro targeting after that.

skybluetony176 · Nov 20, 2018

Looks like the DUP are more likely to bring the PM down than the Tory rebels. They abstained from voting with the government last night in a show of strength.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
It was sent to every household in the UK, presumably using the electoral roll. Some academic studies show that it did have some impact.
How the government’s pro-remain leaflet shaped the EU referendum | SPERI

The study refers to specific sub groups. Mainly ones not exposed to other forms of information. The targeting by leave was aimed at people who used social media to form their opinions - consciously or subconsciously.

clint van damme · Nov 20, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Looks like the DUP are more likely to bring the PM down than the Tory rebels. They abstained from voting with the government last night in a show of strength.

some of them actual voted against the government according to Sammy Wilson.
Think they were just trying to give her a warning but she can't keep pushing her proposal and keep the DUP on side.

Astute · Nov 20, 2018

clint van damme said:
link not working.

Jeremy Corbyn: I would vote to remain in the EU in a second referendum

Jeremy Corbyn wants Britain to remain in the EU — but here are all the times he said it was bad

Astute · Nov 20, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
I think there is a difference between genuinely believing certain things may happen and talking about them as certain is not ok. This is different to staying things in a way that you know to be untrue

As in what lies came from remain as though there wasn't any?

Astute · Nov 20, 2018

martcov said:
That is not targeting. The leave.eu social media campaign targeted people they could influence. They didn’t bother with ones they knew had already made up their minds. Sending everyone a leaflet would get the undecided as well, but it was before the campaign got under way and theses people were hit by micro targeting after that.

Not targeting? It was sent to every home in the UK. It targeted everyone.

I wonder what you would be like if a leave leaflet was posted to every home in the UK.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

Astute said:
Not targeting? It was sent to every home in the UK. It targeted everyone.

I wonder what you would be like if a leave leaflet was posted to every home in the UK.

Posting to every home the same message is not targeting. Targeting is sending the message that pushes the button of someone you know to be undecided or to who fits a category which could be influenced using information harvested from social media. Leaflets are not read by every recipient. As the quoted study says, they are read by certain sub groups. Others who rely on other forms of information won’t bother to read a randomly sent leaflet. Coincidentally, we are now ( 2 days ago ) being asked by a call centre if we receive and read leaflets sent out by Lidl etc.. They are presumably trying to see if it is worth sending leaflets to our area, or whether we just bin them automatically.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

Astute said:
Jeremy Corbyn: I would vote to remain in the EU in a second referendum

Jeremy Corbyn wants Britain to remain in the EU — but here are all the times he said it was bad

He just he doesn’t know which way he would vote now. FFS. He is covering all possibilities.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

Astute said:
As in what lies came from remain as though there wasn't any?

No one is denying that the public was misled. That is the main argument for a people‘s vote. Glad that we agree on this.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

Astute said:
Jeremy Corbyn: I would vote to remain in the EU in a second referendum

Jeremy Corbyn wants Britain to remain in the EU — but here are all the times he said it was bad

Look at the date in your first link. 1. it’s the Telegraph and 2. he has changed his mind from Remain to don’t know. He can change it back of course. He certainly isn’t a committed remainer.

clint van damme · Nov 20, 2018

Astute said:
Jeremy Corbyn: I would vote to remain in the EU in a second referendum

Jeremy Corbyn wants Britain to remain in the EU — but here are all the times he said it was bad

not working, think it's because I'm at work.
But I can get the jist from the title, no matter what he's said, he is not a remainer. Look at his voting record on the subject.
I said early in this thread Europe would be his downfall, he'll be just one of many.

dutchman · Nov 20, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
What were the specific lies Grendel?

Brexit would prompt stock market and house price crash, says IMF

A vote to leave the EU next month could precipitate a stock market crash and steep fall in house prices, the International Monetary Fund has warned.

Christine Lagarde, the IMF managing director, also backed warnings from the Bank of England governor Mark Carney that Britain could fall into recession following a Brexit vote.

“We have looked at all the scenarios. We have done our homework and we haven’t found anything positive to say about a Brexit vote,” she said.

The IMF said a panic among investors would trigger shockwaves throughout the economy following a vote to leave, sending shares and property prices into downward spiral.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

dutchman said:
Brexit would prompt stock market and house price crash, says IMF

A vote to leave the EU next month could precipitate a stock market crash and steep fall in house prices, the International Monetary Fund has warned.

Christine Lagarde, the IMF managing director, also backed warnings from the Bank of England governor Mark Carney that Britain could fall into recession following a Brexit vote.

“We have looked at all the scenarios. We have done our homework and we haven’t found anything positive to say about a Brexit vote,” she said.

The IMF said a panic among investors would trigger shockwaves throughout the economy following a vote to leave, sending shares and property prices into downward spiral.

People are still thinking that if there is a no deal situation.

Sky Blue Pete · Nov 20, 2018

dutchman said:
Brexit would prompt stock market and house price crash, says IMF

A vote to leave the EU next month could precipitate a stock market crash and steep fall in house prices, the International Monetary Fund has warned.

Christine Lagarde, the IMF managing director, also backed warnings from the Bank of England governor Mark Carney that Britain could fall into recession following a Brexit vote.

“We have looked at all the scenarios. We have done our homework and we haven’t found anything positive to say about a Brexit vote,” she said.

The IMF said a panic among investors would trigger shockwaves throughout the economy following a vote to leave, sending shares and property prices into downward spiral.

Can you really not see that that’s different to a complete fabrication or a wilful misuse of facts?

IMF got it wrong

SIR ERNIE · Nov 20, 2018

clint van damme said:
some of them actual voted against the government according to Sammy Wilson.
Think they were just trying to give her a warning but she can't keep pushing her proposal and keep the DUP on side.

Good on them. She deserves all she gets.

Astute · Nov 20, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
Can you really not see that that’s different to a complete fabrication or a wilful misuse of facts?

IMF got it wrong

The same people that get it wrong most times. And they are the same people that say we will struggle after leaving the EU. But their past fails get forgotten by those who want to state their latest guesses.

How about those I quoted for you? There was a list of 10 and asked you if you wanted any more.

Yes both sides lied. And told big lies. But some on here concentrate on lies from one side and ignore the other side. And a few have the balls to call me biased when I mention both sides all the time.

Astute · Nov 20, 2018

martcov said:
People are still thinking that if there is a no deal situation.

A house price crash would be good overall. Those who can't get on the housing ladder would be able to. But there would be pain for those who have recently bought their first home. I would be happy myself. The only time high house prices benefit homeowners is when they sell and not buy.

Can't see it happening though.

skybluetony176 · Nov 20, 2018

I see Rees-Mogg is shit stirring again Don't get stuck with May, Rees-Mogg warns
I’m guessing that the snake is no where near the 48 letters required despite a the rhetoric at the end of last week. What a weasel.

chiefdave · Nov 20, 2018

Astute said:
Can you show me where it was advisory and wasn't meant to take us out of the EU?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/pdfs/ukpga_20150036_en.pdf
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7212/CBP-7212.pdf

SIR ERNIE · Nov 20, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I see Rees-Mogg is shit stirring again Don't get stuck with May, Rees-Mogg warns

He's 100% correct.

clint van damme · Nov 20, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
He's 100% correct.

But he's only motivated by self interest not what's best for the country.

skybluetony176 · Nov 20, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
He's 100% correct.

In what way?

SIR ERNIE · Nov 20, 2018

clint van damme said:
But he's only motivated by self interest not what's best for the country.

Doubt that but he's still right.

Astute · Nov 20, 2018

chiefdave said:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/pdfs/ukpga_20150036_en.pdf
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7212/CBP-7212.pdf

Where did it say that the referendum wasn't supposed to take us out of the EU?

If it wasn't supposed to take us out of the EU why did the government spend nearly 10m putting a pro remain leaflet through every home in the UK?

Grendel · Nov 20, 2018

chiefdave said:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/pdfs/ukpga_20150036_en.pdf
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7212/CBP-7212.pdf

This line of argument is nonsense. The rhetoric through the whole campaign left no one in any doubt that this would be acted on

You also forget that the main opposition were demanding article 50 was triggered straight away.

Also you forget an election took place afterwards and 84% voted for parties that honoured the result.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

Grendel said:
This line of argument is nonsense. The rhetoric through the whole campaign left no one in any doubt that this would be acted on

You also forget that the main opposition were demanding article 50 was triggered straight away.

Also you forget an election took place afterwards and 84% voted for parties that honoured the result.

You also forget that being an advisory referendum it was not subject to the same rules as a binding referendum. This has an effect on what can be done about the cheating by leave.eu. More to come.

You also forget that the election was not primarily about Brexit and that the parties had a much wider manifesto than carrying out the referendum result.

You also forget that May did ask for a strong mandate for the Brexit negotiations and ended up with a minority government.

What you cannot forget is that Brexit has split the country and put us in the mess that we are in today. Thanks Brexit voters.... not.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

Astute said:
Where did it say that the referendum wasn't supposed to take us out of the EU?

If it wasn't supposed to take us out of the EU why did the government spend nearly 10m putting a pro remain leaflet through every home in the UK?

The government put a leaflet out to say that if the country voted for leave it would end up in a disaster. The people voted for leave and it has ended in a disaster. The government was right overall, but not in the details.

Pull the plug and put it back to the people.

martcov · Nov 20, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
Doubt that but he's still right.

His, Mogg‘s, organisation, ERG, receives funds from the USA. He has met up with Bannon who is impressed with him. He is a partner/ director of a 9 bn hedge fund heavily invested in emerging markets and not much in post Brexit Britain. He has plenty of motivation to see other countries doing well out of Brexit. All this crap,about globalists, metropolitan elite etc. supposedly being solely remainers is a joke. I am none of those and I don’t get paid by Soros, but I see Brexit for the con that it is. Will you be joining Tommy Robinson on his march against the Great Brexit Betrayal? 01. December, London. Mogg reminds me so much of Lord Snooty in the Beano. Brings back childhood memories.

chiefdave · Nov 20, 2018

Astute said:
Where did it say that the referendum wasn't supposed to take us out of the EU?

Grendel said:
This line of argument is nonsense. The rhetoric through the whole campaign left no one in any doubt that this would be acted on

You two should join the campaign for a second vote as you're both doing a brilliant job of showing that people didn't actually know what they were voting on.

I'm actually quite shocked. DIdn't realise there was people who were claiming the result was legally binding.

What in the EU Referendum act makes you think that?

Grendel · Nov 20, 2018

chiefdave said:
You two should join the campaign for a second vote as you're both doing a brilliant job of showing that people didn't actually know what they were voting on.

I'm actually quite shocked. DIdn't realise there was people who were claiming the result was legally binding.

What in the EU Referendum act makes you think that?

Why did you not comment on the rest of the post I made?

Also it wasn’t legally binding - it was passed through parliament by an overwhelming majority.

Should another referendum be legally binding - or shall we have a best of three (or 5 if the results the same)

How about a game of rock, paper and scissors to decide the outcome.

chiefdave · Nov 20, 2018

Grendel said:
Why did you not comment on the rest of the post I made?

Because they were irrelevant to the discussion and factually incorrect as I hadn't forgotten either of those things. However neither has any relevance over the content of the act.

Grendel said:
Also it wasn’t legally binding - it was passed through parliament by an overwhelming majority.

You've responded to a comment linking Astute, at his request, to documents showing it wasn't legally binding saying 'nonsense'.

Grendel · Nov 20, 2018

chiefdave said:
Because they were irrelevant to the discussion and factually incorrect as I hadn't forgotten either of those things. However neither has any relevance over the content of the act.

You've responded to a comment linking Astute, at his request, to documents showing it wasn't legally binding saying 'nonsense'.

You do realise our constitution makes all referendums require a Parliament act and a vote so all are advisory.

Can you quote me what the leaflet said about the result of the referendum?

chiefdave · Nov 20, 2018

Grendel said:
You do realise our constitution makes all referendums require a Parliament act and a vote so all are advisory.

You can have a post-legislative referendum as we had on the parliamentary voting system.

Grendel said:
Can you quote me what the leaflet said about the result of the referendum?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You've said yourself the referendum was not legally binding so why are you still arguing that it was?

You can make all the arguments you like about will of the people, elections after the referendum, what was in a leaflet or anything else, many of which I would agree with but it doesn't change the very simple fact that the referendum was not legally binding.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

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