The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (23 Viewers)

The Lurker said:

polls mean sweet fa. look at brexit all the polls had remain winning yet lost. you rarely deal with facts just assumptions. all anti eu parties across Europe are gaining. that mart is a fact

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Yes, gaining. But 12,5% is still a minority compared with 87,5% of voters. Polls do give a guide. They predicted that Merkel’s CDU and the SPD would lose significant support in Hessen. They were pretty good and got the party results within a small margin.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Saxony which I believe is the next state election. AfD are very strong there ( where there are less people of migrant descent than in the West ). They are the ones who were chanting „Merkel muss weg“. One of the main AfD policies. Now that she is going, voting for a party to get Merkel to go loses attraction for some. Gauland even said „mission accomplished“. Non EU migration is down and the EU has put aside money for strengthening EU external borders. Gauland now hopes for cooperation from a future CDU leader. It could be that AfD support drops and some go back to the CDU.

They were chanting „fortress Europe“ two days ago. Strengthening external borders by the EU is a step in that direction. Maybe that takes a bit of the wind out of their sails. I don’t know, but we shall see.

martcov said:

We know the rules of the SM and CU, which includes borders to protect them, because we helped write them. The DUP and ERG are the people blocking a deal on the border issue.

The English Brexit voters wanted control of borders. Now, how does that work on the only land border with the EU? Still waiting for a workable solution...

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Brexit?
According to your ramblings of a few days ago, 'Brexit is dead'.
Is that still the case mart?
Or were you just getting over excited about the soon forgotten losers march?

SIR ERNIE said:

Brexit?
According to your ramblings of a few days ago, 'Brexit is dead'.
Is that still the case mart?
Or were you just getting over excited about the soon forgotten losers march?

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Brexit as promised is dead. It is now just a question of cutting our losses. Benefits are not in sight, but unsolved problems and more billions needed to build car parks, lease storage space, employ border controllers are already here. A no deal situation is looming unless we drop more red lines. Hope you are enjoying this. I am watching from a distance still shaking my head at the absurdity of the position we have created for ourselves. The latest knock backs from 20 WTO members and a note of caution from the EEA, both entirely predictable, have only added to the misery. Our Heritage Fund representative, Liam Fox, has been proved wrong in his assumption that things would be „easy“. At which point do we pull the brakes on?

SIR ERNIE said:

Brexit?
According to your ramblings of a few days ago, 'Brexit is dead'.
Is that still the case mart?
Or were you just getting over excited about the soon forgotten losers march?

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Brexit countdown

martcov said:

Brexit is dead. The people want out of it. Stop crying snowflake.

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hahaha

Captain Dart said:

Brexit countdown

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The clock is ticking..... British border question not solved. Port facilities not adequate. WTO countries not playing ball. EEA won’t accept automatic membership. USA has a „no friends, no foes“ trade deal policy. Australia wants to sort out EU deal before U.K. trade deal. EU deal has precedence. Where’s the benefit in all this? Control our borders? We only have one and we don’t want to control it. It would be hilarious if it affected other countries miles away, but it the problem is in the UK of GB and NI.

SIR ERNIE said:

hahaha

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Astute said:

You are aware that EU rules cause problems for the leaders of countries in the EU I take it.

You are totally against the austerity measures taken out in recent years in the UK. Nobody could be in doubt of this fact. I am not happy with it myself. But borrowing against GDP is down. That will be good for the future. At least we have the UK government to blame.

So onto austerity measures that have something to do with the EU. How about Greece? They have reduced pensions and many more brought in. They were under the instructions of the EU. How about Italy? Who are the Italians blaming for the state of the country? Look at Rome. Piles of rubbish all over the place. Busses bursting into flames through lack of maintenance. And the EU is trying to force austerity measures on Italy. But by what you are saying nobody will blame the EU. Maybe nobody blames the EU in either country for the immigrants being stranded in both countries. Maybe they are happy with the words but lack of action from the EU.

I suppose everyone in Hungary are happy about having rules forced upon them. Will they blame their leader or the EU? On one hand you are praising austerity as being positive for the UK, then blaming blaming the EU for enforcing it on Italy.

Hungarian PM vows to continue battle with EU over migration

So no SB. Not everyone is happy with the EU. Take your blinkers off. Unease against the EU is growing. It is even growing in Germany. Yet it is just brushed off as a few racists.

The EU needs to reform. And it needs to do it quickly. They need to stop looking after their own interests and start looking after the interests of the people of the EU. Otherwise unrest will continue to grow.

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Your post is full of contradictions, which I'm sure you are aware.

Speak to the average person on the street in Italy and they will point to successive governments and organised crime, which has a major impact upon the country, both financially and socially. Do you ever wonder why the south has so many problems in comparison to the wealthy north? Is that the fault of the EU, too?

How is rubbish in places like Rome the fault of the EU? The EU has warned Italy to sort it out or face sanctions?

Governments in Europe must love citizens like yourself as they are avoid being held accountable for their own failings and everything blamed on the EU.

I'm now pretty much at the point that I want them to just get on with it. Personally, I will be fine, but I still have that 'typical leftie' thing where I actually care about others who are less well off or less able than me, but it seems like quite a lot of those people are the ones clamouring for brexit. You can't reason people out of positions they have not reasoned themselves into, most people don't vote rationally, they vote based on 'feelings'. Politicians are, of course, fully aware of this.

An advisory referendum was won by a narrow margin. The electoral franchise was flawed. The leave campaigns broke the law. Russian geopolitics clearly played a role. There will likely be a return to sectarian violence. Best case scenario is a significant dip in the economy, worst case scenario is catastrophic. Bigotry and violence have increased. On the other hand, blue passports and a new 50p.

The country is divided. I can't see a second referendum healing this, it will only energise the swing to the far-right of the leavers.

So, let it happen. Let the country get into such a shit position that 10 years down the line they will be begging to be let back in, on terms much worse than we had.

Grappa said:

I'm now pretty much at the point that I want them to just get on with it. Personally, I will be fine, but I still have that 'typical leftie' thing where I actually care about others who are less well off or less able than me, but it seems like quite a lot of those people are the ones clamouring for brexit. You can't reason people out of positions they have not reasoned themselves into, most people don't vote rationally, they vote based on 'feelings'. Politicians are, of course, fully aware of this.

An advisory referendum was won by a narrow margin. The electoral franchise was flawed. The leave campaigns broke the law. Russian geopolitics clearly played a role. There will likely be a return to sectarian violence. Best case scenario is a significant dip in the economy, worst case scenario is catastrophic. Bigotry and violence have increased. On the other hand, blue passports and a new 50p.

The country is divided. I can't see a second referendum healing this, it will only energise the swing to the far-right of the leavers.

So, let it happen. Let the country get into such a shit position that 10 years down the line they will be begging to be let back in, on terms much worse than we had.

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Spot on and this 50p thing is really a joke. You can’t buy much with 50p. If anything it shows what Brexit is worth. If the government were proud of Brexit, they would at least have made a 1 coin. Better still a Brexit sovereign, or a silver commemorative 5 pound coin.

50p May get you into a toilet cubicle, but not much more.

Rather apt it being 50p.

Grappa said:

I'm now pretty much at the point that I want them to just get on with it. Personally, I will be fine, but I still have that 'typical leftie' thing where I actually care about others who are less well off or less able than me, but it seems like quite a lot of those people are the ones clamouring for brexit. You can't reason people out of positions they have not reasoned themselves into, most people don't vote rationally, they vote based on 'feelings'. Politicians are, of course, fully aware of this.

An advisory referendum was won by a narrow margin. The electoral franchise was flawed. The leave campaigns broke the law. Russian geopolitics clearly played a role. There will likely be a return to sectarian violence. Best case scenario is a significant dip in the economy, worst case scenario is catastrophic. Bigotry and violence have increased. On the other hand, blue passports and a new 50p.

The country is divided. I can't see a second referendum healing this, it will only energise the swing to the far-right of the leavers.

So, let it happen. Let the country get into such a shit position that 10 years down the line they will be begging to be let back in, on terms much worse than we had.

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Unfortunately, this kind of one sided view is why we are and will continue to be in a divided state. People on both sides just don't listen to the others sides views/concerns (see 660 pages as proof !)

You can't reason people out of positions they have not reasoned themselves into (sounds like a James O'Brien - LBC line) - There were/are genuine concerns from people who voted for Brexit, most directly or indirectly relate to jobs/wages, housing and public services. Yes, a majority of migrants put into the system but is it enough to cover the additional cost of public services immediately on arrival ? Has significant net migration supressed wages ? Talking of reasoning, most young people who are complaining about the referendum result are the same who are complaining about their inability to get on the housing ladder due to rising house prices - at net migration of 200-350k per annum over the past 10+ years (appreciate this isn't just EU nationals) do they not consider that this may have contributed to the supply/demand of property ? ps I have said before that one minor concession by the EU on this point, giving even a semblance of perceived control (which would never have been enforced as our borders are leaky at best, intentionally left open at worst !) would've been sufficient for Remain to win, probably comfortably. The combination of the lack of concession and perceived arrogance swung it for many. Just to be clear is migration needed ? - YES, does it benefit the country ? - YES, should it be uncontrolled - NO.

An advisory referendum was won by a narrow margin - Agreed. Yet the SNP believe even a 10% margin isn't sufficient to justify not having a second independence referendum in Scotland, so where do you stop ?! I do think a "margin of error" should have been built but wasn't, as I presume the government was too arrogant to ever think it would be close.

The electoral franchise was flawed - what's new ?! However, this is probably the first time many people would have considered that their vote actually mattered (every vote counting) especially if they live in a constituency that is strong labour or conservative majority so never thought their vote counted for anything until the referendum.

The leave campaigns broke the law - There was rubbish/lies spouted on both sides but you've got to remember our own government supported Remain and used public money to push this view which probably more than offset any overspend from Leave.

Russian geopolitics clearly played a role - probably a role but how significant ? I don't think this would've significantly altered the voting numbers (the lies on both sides would've played a greater role)

There will likely be a return to sectarian violence - this wont be Brexits fault (maybe an excuse to recommence violence but not the reason). I have to admit, I was surprised that this waseven discussed in detail during the referendum by either side. Remain should've raised the challenges relating to it and also we shouldn't have triggered Article 50 until there was an agreed solution, however, if memory serves me correctly the EU wouldn't discuss anything until Article 50 was triggered.

Best case scenario is a significant dip in the economy, worst case scenario is catastrophic - who knows long term, the world is changing. We are apparently due a recession soon (usually once every 10+ years....apart from when Brown was chancellor ended them...apparently) but who really knows until it happens. Will other countries take advantage of our weakened negotiating position or jump at the chance for more free/open trade ?! Short term there will no doubt be an impact. If there is a no deal, it will be a mess !

One part I do agree with you though Grappa....I'll be glad when all this is over !

CCFCSteve said:

One part I do agree with you though Grappa....I'll be glad when all this is over !

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Hear hear!

martcov said:

Yes, gaining. But 12,5% is still a minority compared with 87,5% of voters. Polls do give a guide. They predicted that Merkel’s CDU and the SPD would lose significant support in Hessen. They were pretty good and got the party results within a small margin.

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Germany isn't the only country in the EU. The fastest growing party in Holland is the Socialist Party which is anti-EU and anti-austerity. It was at the expense of the pro-EU, pro-austerity Labour Party which was almost entirely wiped out at the last election.

martcov said:

The clock is ticking..... British border question not solved. Port facilities not adequate. WTO countries not playing ball. EEA won’t accept automatic membership. USA has a „no friends, no foes“ trade deal policy. Australia wants to sort out EU deal before U.K. trade deal. EU deal has precedence. Where’s the benefit in all this? Control our borders? We only have one and we don’t want to control it. It would be hilarious if it affected other countries miles away, but it the problem is in the UK of GB and NI.

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Sounds like you would be delighted for the UK to fail, why wouldn't you want to see the UK come out of this with flying colours.......... Oh mo, I forgot you were one of Merkels wet Liberal bitches........still at least she's on the way down now !

dutchman said:

Germany isn't the only country in the EU.

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It is for mad Mart

Ashdown said:

Sounds like you would be delighted for the UK to fail, why wouldn't you want to see the UK come out of this with flying colours.......... Oh mo, I forgot you were one of Merkels wet Liberal bitches........still at least she's on the way down now !

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Isn't Merkel's party centre-right?

Sick Boy said:

Isn't Merkel's party centre-right?

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So was the dribbling Euro liberal Cameron

Ashdown said:

Sounds like you would be delighted for the UK to fail, why wouldn't you want to see the UK come out of this with flying colours.......... Oh mo, I forgot you were one of Merkels wet Liberal bitches........still at least she's on
the way down now !

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It was Captain Dart that posted the ticking clock. I just pointed out the things not dealt with at this stage.

Merkel is not a liberal... unless you are viewing from a far right perspective. If so then I must be a lefty.

I see no signs of the UK coming out with flying colours. If it does, then great.

Grendel said:

So was the dribbling Euro liberal Cameron

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To a far right person maybe.

Grendel said:

It is for mad Mart

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Germany is the most mentioned country by leavers. That would suggest that there are plenty of mad leavers according to your theory.

Sick Boy said:

Your post is full of contradictions, which I'm sure you are aware.

Speak to the average person on the street in Italy and they will point to successive governments and organised crime, which has a major impact upon the country, both financially and socially. Do you ever wonder why the south has so many problems in comparison to the wealthy north? Is that the fault of the EU, too?

How is rubbish in places like Rome the fault of the EU? The EU has warned Italy to sort it out or face sanctions?

Governments in Europe must love citizens like yourself as they are avoid being held accountable for their own failings and everything blamed on the EU.

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Where do we start?

How about pointing out these contradictions. You are good at saying that I have said what I haven't.

We have spoken about the South before and agreed with just about everything.

Italy being in the Euro is a massive hindrance. They have a currency that is tied to a strong Germany. Italy is anything but strong. If they had their own currency they could pull themselves out of the shit by devaluing. It would happen naturally. But Germany is so strong that the Euro will stay strong until a country using it goes to the wall.

And all this has nothing to do with the EU. The Euro has nothing to do with the EU. And the EU telling Italy how to manage its finances is nothing to do with the EU.

Grappa said:

I'm now pretty much at the point that I want them to just get on with it.

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This is the point I reached ages ago. I didn't want it to happen. But the majority voted for it.

The rest is just you guessing.

Grendel said:

So was the dribbling Euro liberal Cameron

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I'm sure you've described yourself as one before and you're a rabid foaming at the mouth eurosceptic.

Astute said:

Where do we start?

How about pointing out these contradictions. You are good at saying that I have said what I haven't.

We have spoken about the South before and agreed with just about everything.

Italy being in the Euro is a massive hindrance. They have a currency that is tied to a strong Germany. Italy is anything but strong. If they had their own currency they could pull themselves out of the shit by devaluing. It would happen naturally. But Germany is so strong that the Euro will stay strong until a country using it goes to the wall.

And all this has nothing to do with the EU. The Euro has nothing to do with the EU. And the EU telling Italy how to manage its finances is nothing to do with the EU.

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You're contradictions are in your own post and have already been pointed out to you. Mass corruption and organised crime has crippled Italy as well as ridiculous domestic policies that stifle small businesses and those looking to work freelance etc, all of which has nothing to do with the EU.

Young Italians I have spoken to have mostly tended to point blame at their successive governments and organised crime.

There is anger of the handling of the refugee crisis though, which is aimed more at individual countries like France and the UK for not taking on their share of these people. Personally, I don't think the country of first entry should shoulder all of the burden, and it's an area I think needs reform.

Sick Boy said:

You're contradictions are in your own post and have already been pointed out to you. Mass corruption and organised crime has crippled Italy as well as ridiculous domestic policies that stifle small businesses and those looking to work freelance etc, all of which has nothing to do with the EU.

Young Italians I have spoken to have mostly tended to point blame at their successive governments and organised crime.

There is anger of the handling of the refugee crisis though, which is aimed more at individual countries like France and the UK for not taking on their share of these people. Personally, I don't think the country of first entry should shoulder all of the burden, and it's an area I think needs reform.

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People like Orban being a major hindrance in getting the burden shared. Gladly pocketing EU money, but not the responsibilities.

Astute said:

Where do we start?

How about pointing out these contradictions. You are good at saying that I have said what I haven't.

We have spoken about the South before and agreed with just about everything.

Italy being in the Euro is a massive hindrance. They have a currency that is tied to a strong Germany. Italy is anything but strong. If they had their own currency they could pull themselves out of the shit by devaluing. It would happen naturally. But Germany is so strong that the Euro will stay strong until a country using it goes to the wall.

And all this has nothing to do with the EU. The Euro has nothing to do with the EU. And the EU telling Italy how to manage its finances is nothing to do with the EU.

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Italy is in a monetary union as agreed by Italy. Now is not a good time to be increasing borrowing as agreed by yourself. No one is telling Italy how to allocate their budget. They are asking them to stick to what they agreed to. That is not to increase borrowing.

Lord Has haw of Kiel is off again !!......you be careful, it didn't end well for William now did it !?........

Ashdown said:

Lord Has haw of Kiel is off again !!......you be careful, it didn't end well for William now did it !?........

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Ironic you comparing me to a right wing propaganda merchant. Looked in a mirror lately?

You are off again finding Nazis in every corner, must be a German thing ?! .......Me right wing......I don't think so at all, I'm more interested in the destruction of the planet and our wildlife than the all conquering human race and it's poxy politics. I think that makes me more of a tree hugger really.

martcov said:

Ironic you comparing me to a right wing propaganda merchant. Looked in a mirror lately?

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I'm confused as to whether you're a dribbling left-wing communist or a Nazi-sympathising fascist.

Ashdown said:

You are off again finding Nazis in every corner, must be a German thing ?! .......Me right wing......I don't think so at all, I'm more interested in the destruction of the planet and our wildlife than the all conquering human race and it's poxy politics. I think that makes me more of a tree hugger really.

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To be fair you're the one who compared him to a Nazi-sympathiser.

I was joking and poking him a little..... obviously ?!

Ashdown said:

I was joking and poking him a little..... obviously ?!

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Of course you were......,

As when you claimed I was one of Merkel’s wet liberal bitches..

Only the far right describe Merkel as a wet liberal and the AfD policy is that she goes down.

That, plus some of your previous comments, places you well away from being a tree hugger. Tree huggers, people who want to save nature, usually fall into the category of people who want to help refugees.

Nah... you were obviously joking when you claimed to be a tree hugger.

Pigeon holing people again Mart.......is exactly what the Remoaners have done ever since they LOST !!

Ashdown said:

Pigeon holing people again Mart.......is exactly what the Remoaners have done ever since they LOST !!

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We all lost. Resorting to calling people „remoaner“ won’t alter that.

How do you work out that only half of the UK are going to lose because of Brexit? Up until now there are no signs of any winners. Unless you call a 50p piece with the word „Brexit“ on it or a French made blue passport winning.