The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (54 Viewers)

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
What domestic policy in Germany and Sweden used to be you mean?

Nothing to do with the EU? Would they all have ended up in EU countries without open borders?

Current policy is leave them stranded in the country that they land in. Germany doesn't want any more. Sweden doesn't want any more.

You make out that the UK hasn't taken anyone. Yet you ignore the fact that our population has boomed whilst the German population has remained steady. So why do so many people from all over the EU want to come here? Germany is stronger. It has the major benefit of the Euro. Lowest unemployment level. And so on.

So why the UK and not Germany?

We ( EU including UK ) don’t have open borders. Germany and Sweden had humanitarian refugee policies in line with the Geneva convention. Merkel and Sweden made their own decisions and refugee policy as there wasn’t an EU policy. Which is the actual problem.

Germany and Sweden were the top destinations. The UK is also a favoured destination because of language and the perception that it is a stable liberal state ( rather a misconception at the moment).

Current policy is not to leave them stranded, but to get EU countries to share the burden.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
So Germany and Sweden asked Muslim countries to send them their people?

How about the truth?

Open borders made the problem. Then of course they wanted to go to the richer countries. These include Germany and Sweden. So they took many. But now they won't take any more as they never thought of the consequences.

Truth? Bullshit. There were no open borders to the EU. The sheer mass of people took the existing borders by surprise and the lack of a sensible refugee problem meant that countries let them through, although they were supposed to register for asylum in the country of arrival . As they were in the Schengen area they couldn’t stop them once threy were in- although they tried to regulate the flow of refugees but were out numbered. Sweden and Germany took a lot as their refugee policies were liberal.

You keep saying there are open borders to the EU. There aren’t.

Captain Dart · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
What domestic policy in Germany and Sweden used to be you mean?

Nothing to do with the EU? Would they all have ended up in EU countries without open borders?

Current policy is leave them stranded in the country that they land in. Germany doesn't want any more. Sweden doesn't want any more.

You make out that the UK hasn't taken anyone. Yet you ignore the fact that our population has boomed whilst the German population has remained steady. So why do so many people from all over the EU want to come here? Germany is stronger. It has the major benefit of the Euro. Lowest unemployment level. And so on.

So why the UK and not Germany?

Language, most of the migrants speak a bit of English, virtually none of them speak German, some speak French.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
You can't have it both ways Mart.

You say that open borders are great. Only a small price to pay for the occasional murder and everything else that comes with it.

But Europe is now seen as the place to go. Get to any country in the EU and then you can go where you want. The full truth isn't known to the majority who want to come here. This creates lots of problems. And all this while we have Muslim fanatics that see us as targets. Before you say it I know the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. But it makes it easy for the few to travel and cause atrocities.

So now we have open borders but not where immigrants get into Europe.

I would be happy to show my passport at borders if it would make the situation better. But word won't get to those who want to come here expecting a pot of gold.

You do have to show your passport to enter the Schengen area. The borders are not open. If you are a refugee you have to register and apply for asylum.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Captain Dart said:
Language, most of the migrants speak a bit of English, virtually none of them speak German, some speak French.

They have a right to apply for asylum. If they haven’t already made an application at the point of arrival. Lots came through Germany on the way to Sweden. They claimed to have relatives already in Sweden and were allowed through.

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
What domestic policy in Germany and Sweden used to be you mean?

Nothing to do with the EU? Would they all have ended up in EU countries without open borders?

Current policy is leave them stranded in the country that they land in. Germany doesn't want any more. Sweden doesn't want any more.

You make out that the UK hasn't taken anyone. Yet you ignore the fact that our population has boomed whilst the German population has remained steady. So why do so many people from all over the EU want to come here? Germany is stronger. It has the major benefit of the Euro. Lowest unemployment level. And so on.

So why the UK and not Germany?

I’ve already told you the domestic policies. Try reading what I’ve already posted. There isn’t an open border between Turkey and Greece or Libya and Italy so yes they would have ended up in EU countries regardless of the open borders given that they entered the EU through closed borders. Am I really having to explain this to you?

You’re making out that I’m making out that the U.K. hasn’t taken any of them. I actually think David Cameron had it right in that he wanted to go to the camps to take the most needy and vulnerable. As I’ve already said, if you wanted to talk truth you could blame Merkel for the refugee crisis given her very public invitation for them to come to Germany. Germany’s unemployment rate is actually very similar to ours ( captain confirmed this morning with his link) 3.8% compared to Germany’s 3.5%. Swedens unemployment rate is almost 6% so not sure your argument stands up based on the facts (I know you like facts). Germany benefits from the Euro? Sounds like you’re advocating remaining and joining the Euro to boot.

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
How about the myth that everyone has somewhere to live. Or the myth that everyone can get the treatment they need. Or the myth of plenty of school places.

Not a point you make but one you ignore.

The myth there is that the problems are caused by immigration. Tends to be a good policy to have infrastructure that reflects the demands of your economy. It’s down to a failing of domestic policy and lack of investment. Unless of course you’re going to claim that the EU sets the budget for the NHS and dictates how many houses we can build. Successive governments enjoyed having one of the longest periods of growth in the U.K. for decades (especially Labour) and failed to invest it correctly in the basics.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

martcov said:
Truth? Bullshit. There were no open borders to the EU. The sheer mass of people took the existing borders by surprise and the lack of a sensible refugee problem meant that countries let them through, although they were supposed to register for asylum in the country of arrival . As they were in the Schengen area they couldn’t stop them once threy were in- although they tried to regulate the flow of refugees but were out numbered. Sweden and Germany took a lot as their refugee policies were liberal.

You keep saying there are open borders to the EU. There aren’t.

You show me once where I have said there are open borders to the EU and I will show you the lie. I will also show you where you have twisted what was said.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I’ve already told you the domestic policies. Try reading what I’ve already posted. There isn’t an open border between Turkey and Greece or Libya and Italy so yes they would have ended up in EU countries regardless of the open borders given that they entered the EU through closed borders. Am I really having to explain this to you?

You’re making out that I’m making out that the U.K. hasn’t taken any of them. I actually think David Cameron had it right in that he wanted to go to the camps to take the most needy and vulnerable. As I’ve already said, if you wanted to talk truth you could blame Merkel for the refugee crisis given her very public invitation for them to come to Germany. Germany’s unemployment rate is actually very similar to ours ( captain confirmed this morning with his link) 3.8% compared to Germany’s 3.5%. Swedens unemployment rate is almost 6% so not sure your argument stands up based on the facts (I know you like facts). Germany benefits from the Euro? Sounds like you’re advocating remaining and joining the Euro to boot.

So as I said Germany has the lowest unemployment figures. Benefits in Sweden are very high.

Are you trying to make out that Germany doesn't benefit from being in the Euro? We can revisit the subject if you like.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
The myth there is that the problems are caused by immigration. Tends to be a good policy to have infrastructure that reflects the demands of your economy. It’s down to a failing of domestic policy and lack of investment. Unless of course you’re going to claim that the EU sets the budget for the NHS and dictates how many houses we can build. Successive governments enjoyed having one of the longest periods of growth in the U.K. for decades (especially Labour) and failed to invest it correctly in the basics.

Which is what I have always said. When I first mentioned it on here some tried to say it was nothing to do with Labour.

So you agree that we don't have the infrastructure to cope with the numbers that have come here and that it would have got worse if it had continued?

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

martcov said:
Current policy is not to leave them stranded, but to get EU countries to share the burden.

Current policy is to leave them stranded in Italy, Greece and Spain.

Current future policy is to build holding places. But nobody wants them in their own country. And then those allowed to stay will be moved around the EU. But they can't agree on where they go will be decided.

Captain Dart · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
Current policy is to leave them stranded in Italy, Greece and Spain.

Current future policy is to build holding places. But nobody wants them in their own country. And then those allowed to stay will be moved around the EU. But they can't agree on where they go will be decided.

Pass the parcel.

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
Which is what I have always said. When I first mentioned it on here some tried to say it was nothing to do with Labour.

So you agree that we don't have the infrastructure to cope with the numbers that have come here and that it would have got worse if it had continued?

We don’t have the infrastructure to cope with the demands of our economy. People are not coming here because the economy doesn’t have the jobs that they want, they’re coming here because the work is available as the recent job figures prove. If you want the infrastructure to cope with the demands of the economy we have two choices. 1) invest in the infrastructure so it can cope, or 2) deliberately shrink the economy so that the current infatuature can cope meaning that EU immigration falls because jobs aren’t available for them, this in turn will mean that they aren’t looking for somewhere to live and someone to treat them when they’re ill. Although in that scenario I doubt it will be a big enough relief to the infrastructure to make more than a drop in the ocean such is the length of the long term failings to address the underlying issues. Plus what governments is going to acknowledge the long term failings of successive government by deliberately shrinking the economy? It would be political suicide.

SIR ERNIE · Sep 11, 2018

martcov said:
You do have to show your passport to enter the Schengen area. The borders are not open. If you are a refugee you have to register and apply for asylum.

Ah ok, I understand now. There are no open borders, you can’t just walk in.

Unless that is, some mad woman invites a million into Germany, in which case Stavros at the border gate in Kos does a runner when he sees thousands of Syrians, Pakistanis, Afghans and Iraqis pouring off the ferry.

Only when that happens are the borders open and you can walk in.

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
So as I said Germany has the lowest unemployment figures. Benefits in Sweden are very high.

Are you trying to make out that Germany doesn't benefit from being in the Euro? We can revisit the subject if you like.

Germany, as Grendull pointed out and you’re pointing out now is the best argument for not only remaining in the EU but also joining the Euro and abandoning the pound so no I’m not trying to make out that Germany and specifically German manufacturing hasn’t benefited from the Euro. What I do find amusing is when leavers keep using the “Germany benefits from the Euro” argument as a reason to leave when in actuality it’s the exact opposite. By the way I don’t think we should abandon the pound. Just amused by the faux outrage using backwards thinking to make a point.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
We don’t have the infrastructure to cope with the demands of our economy. People are not coming here because the economy doesn’t have the jobs that they want, they’re coming here because the work is available as the recent job figures prove. If you want the infrastructure to cope with the demands of the economy we have two choices. 1) invest in the infrastructure so it can cope, or 2) deliberately shrink the economy so that the current infatuature can cope meaning that EU immigration falls because jobs aren’t available for them, this in turn will mean that they aren’t looking for somewhere to live and someone to treat them when they’re ill. Although in that scenario I doubt it will be a big enough relief to the infrastructure to make more than a drop in the ocean such is the length of the long term failings to address the underlying issues. Plus what governments is going to acknowledge the long term failings of successive government by deliberately shrinking the economy? It would be political suicide.

So where is the money going to come from for everything that is needed?

Nice and simple question.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Germany, as Grendull pointed out and you’re pointing out now is the best argument for not only remaining in the EU but also joining the Euro and abandoning the pound so no I’m not trying to make out that Germany and specifically German manufacturing hasn’t benefited from the Euro. What I do find amusing is when leavers keep using the “Germany benefits from the Euro” argument as a reason to leave when in actuality it’s the exact opposite. By the way I don’t think we should abandon the pound. Just amused by the faux outrage using backwards thinking to make a point.

Outrage?

It hasn't had much effect on us as we have our own currency.

But how can it not benefit Germany when you admit that it benefits Germany....And to the detriment of the poorer countries that also use the Euro.

Captain Dart · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Germany, as Grendull pointed out and you’re pointing out now is the best argument for not only remaining in the EU but also joining the Euro and abandoning the pound so no I’m not trying to make out that Germany and specifically German manufacturing hasn’t benefited from the Euro. What I do find amusing is when leavers keep using the “Germany benefits from the Euro” argument as a reason to leave when in actuality it’s the exact opposite. By the way I don’t think we should abandon the pound. Just amused by the faux outrage using backwards thinking to make a point.

Really there should have been 2 euro's,one for the stronger northern economies & one for the weaker southern economies with an objective of merging the 2 if they converged (unlikely profligate tax avoiding Greece would always drag it down).

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
So where is the money going to come from for everything that is needed?

Nice and simple question.

As already pointed out we had it in a great period of growth but failed to invest it correctly in certain areas ie housing and health. That’s the crooks of the problem. That’s a failure of our government. Successive governments.

Where are we going to get it now? Through a strong economy that brings in Tax income or by lending to invest in our future. How is the economy going to be strong if we can’t fill a jobs market? It isn’t, the economy will stutter or even retract so we need people to fill those jobs. However you do that whether that be through procreation or immigration it all means the same thing. A growth in the population. A growth we failed to prepare for and as the old saying goes fail to prepare, prepare to fail. China’s just scrapped it’s one child policy for that very reason. The population isn’t growing fast enough to fulfill their booming economy. Another thing China is doing is investing in preparation of a population boom to help the economy move forward.

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
Outrage?

It hasn't had much effect on us as we have our own currency.

But how can it not benefit Germany when you admit that it benefits Germany....And to the detriment of the poorer countries that also use the Euro.

Yes outrage. You being one of the main culprits. I’ve lost count of the amount of times you’ve used the best argument for the U.K. to join the Euro as an axe to hit Germany with.

Your last paragraph doesn’t even make sense. Who exactly has said that the Euro hasn’t benefited Germany? Not me. In fact I’ve already told you twice today that it has. Three times now. Sounds like you’re arguing with yourself on that one while trying to do your best to drag me into your argument. I won’t be obliging.

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Captain Dart said:
Really there should have been 2 euro's,one for the stronger northern economies & one for the weaker southern economies with an objective of merging the 2 if they converged (unlikely profligate tax avoiding Greece would always drag it down).

Best idea would have been to have stronger controls on who joins. Greece definitely shouldn’t have been allowed to. I’m still convinced that the only reason it did was to give a stay of execution of everything that has happened in Greece. Joining the Euro brought them time from the inevitable. Greece didn’t change its ways to join the Euro or since joining the Euro before the crash. Historically it’s never been a self sustaining economy with income tax being optional and retiring everyone on final salary pensions.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
So as I said Germany has the lowest unemployment figures. Benefits in Sweden are very high.

Are you trying to make out that Germany doesn't benefit from being in the Euro? We can revisit the subject if you like.

Most eurozone countries benefit from the Euro. Some more than others, but there is no rush to leave and others are waiting to join. Germany did well before the Euro.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Best idea would have been to have stronger controls on who joins. Greece definitely shouldn’t have been allowed to. I’m still convinced that the only reason it did was to give a stay of execution of everything that has happened in Greece. Joining the Euro brought them time from the inevitable. Greece didn’t change its ways to join the Euro or since joining the Euro before the crash. Historically it’s never been a self sustaining economy with income tax being optional and retiring everyone on final salary pensions.

Yes, they fiddled the figures to get Greece in. Blame Theo Waigel for that. That was political over enthusiasm. But Greece did very well financially at the beginning, or at least it seemed to. It was only exposed because of the crash and then everyone realised it was living on credit.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
Ah ok, I understand now. There are no open borders, you can’t just walk in.

Unless that is, some mad woman invites a million into Germany, in which case Stavros at the border gate in Kos does a runner when he sees thousands of Syrians, Pakistanis, Afghans and Iraqis pouring off the ferry.

Only when that happens are the borders open and you can walk in.

You still have to register as an asylum seeker and be assessed. Admittedly there were so many that the system broke down. It is still not completely fixed. I don’t get why they can’t get the multiple identity chancers. They have a little machine for finger printing which gives a digital copy of your fingerprint. Takes a few seconds and can’t cost much if you order hundreds of them. The guy suspected of murder in Chemnitz had 17 different identities. I was asked if I wanted mine taken for my ID card. It was voluntary. I hope that refugees are forced to give fingerprints as they usually have no reliable alternative identification.

The number of refugees coming to Germany has dropped dramatically. The problem now is getting the ones who have been refused asylum back out again. The countries don’t want them back, especially the criminal ones.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
We don’t have the infrastructure to cope with the demands of our economy. People are not coming here because the economy doesn’t have the jobs that they want, they’re coming here because the work is available as the recent job figures prove. If you want the infrastructure to cope with the demands of the economy we have two choices. 1) invest in the infrastructure so it can cope, or 2) deliberately shrink the economy so that the current infatuature can cope meaning that EU immigration falls because jobs aren’t available for them, this in turn will mean that they aren’t looking for somewhere to live and someone to treat them when they’re ill. Although in that scenario I doubt it will be a big enough relief to the infrastructure to make more than a drop in the ocean such is the length of the long term failings to address the underlying issues. Plus what governments is going to acknowledge the long term failings of successive government by deliberately shrinking the economy? It would be political suicide.

Leaving the EU will shrink the economy at least short term. The EU migrants are returning home, so theoretically the pressure is being reduced.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
You show me once where I have said there are open borders to the EU and I will show you the lie. I will also show you where you have twisted what was said.

Post: 09:34 10:38 today.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Captain Dart said:
Really there should have been 2 euro's,one for the stronger northern economies & one for the weaker southern economies with an objective of merging the 2 if they converged (unlikely profligate tax avoiding Greece would always drag it down).

Greece should never have been allowed in.

Captain Dart · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Best idea would have been to have stronger controls on who joins. Greece definitely shouldn’t have been allowed to. I’m still convinced that the only reason it did was to give a stay of execution of everything that has happened in Greece. Joining the Euro brought them time from the inevitable. Greece didn’t change its ways to join the Euro or since joining the Euro before the crash. Historically it’s never been a self sustaining economy with income tax being optional and retiring everyone on final salary pensions.

Rubbish, the 'EU project' and 'fiscal prudence' are incompatible. Spain & Italy figures were frigged to allow them to join the Euro in the first place, its all built on lies & manipulation.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Captain Dart said:
Rubbish, the 'EU project' and 'fiscal prudence' are incompatible. Spain & Italy figures were frigged to allow them to join the Euro in the first place, its all built on lies & manipulation.

Obviousness that is a bit of a sweeping statement. What part of the EU project is not compatible? Is Germany’s economy based on lies? Or Estonia‘s? As examples.

dutchman · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Sweden has an open door policy for refugees.

And economic migrants falsely masquerading as 'refugees'.

Child migrant tests 'reveal many adults'

‘80% were grown-ups’: Swedish dentist fired for exposing migrant ‘kids’ as adults talks to RT

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

dutchman said:
And economic migrants falsely masquerading as 'refugees'.

Child migrant tests 'reveal many adults'

‘80% were grown-ups’: Swedish dentist fired for exposing migrant ‘kids’ as adults talks to RT

We have done this before I think.

RT = Kremlin viewpoint. Disinformation.

He wasn’t a dentist. He was a dental hygienist.

He wasn’t asked to do these tests.

The „ patients“ didn’t give consent for the results to be disclosed.

There is a margin of error of 5 years with this sort of assessment.

The development can be effected by diet and genetics- race.

He disclosed patient information and was fired for that reason.

He lost his appeal.

He appears on right wing sites in the USA and in Sweden, Sweden Democrats.

The results of other tests tested to a higher standard show a much lower percentage of fraud.

Conclusion: Fake news.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
As already pointed out we had it in a great period of growth but failed to invest it correctly in certain areas ie housing and health. That’s the crooks of the problem. That’s a failure of our government. Successive governments.

Where are we going to get it now? Through a strong economy that brings in Tax income or by lending to invest in our future. How is the economy going to be strong if we can’t fill a jobs market? It isn’t, the economy will stutter or even retract so we need people to fill those jobs. However you do that whether that be through procreation or immigration it all means the same thing. A growth in the population. A growth we failed to prepare for and as the old saying goes fail to prepare, prepare to fail. China’s just scrapped it’s one child policy for that very reason. The population isn’t growing fast enough to fulfill their booming economy. Another thing China is doing is investing in preparation of a population boom to help the economy move forward.

Make your mind up. Brexit was supposed to kill our economy.

Because of the amount of people that have moved to the UK in the last 18 years and lack of investment it would cost countless billions just to catch up with housing. You need to try and get your head around the fact of needing housing and infrastructure the equivalent of about the size of 6 cities.

So where are all these properties going to be built?

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Yes outrage. You being one of the main culprits. I’ve lost count of the amount of times you’ve used the best argument for the U.K. to join the Euro as an axe to hit Germany with.

Your last paragraph doesn’t even make sense. Who exactly has said that the Euro hasn’t benefited Germany? Not me. In fact I’ve already told you twice today that it has. Three times now. Sounds like you’re arguing with yourself on that one while trying to do your best to drag me into your argument. I won’t be obliging.

This is where you are making up your bullshit.

Just shows me where I have said we should leave the EU because of the Euro being of the benefit of Germany and the detriment of the poorer countries in it.

Pluses for leaving is not getting more overcrowded. Giving the infrastructure a chance to catch up.

And most of all getting away from being ruled by a crooked organisation like the EU run by Juncker, Selmayr and co.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

martcov said:
Post: 09:34 10:38 today.

In the EU not to the EU. Get it right.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Best idea would have been to have stronger controls on who joins. Greece definitely shouldn’t have been allowed to. I’m still convinced that the only reason it did was to give a stay of execution of everything that has happened in Greece. Joining the Euro brought them time from the inevitable. Greece didn’t change its ways to join the Euro or since joining the Euro before the crash. Historically it’s never been a self sustaining economy with income tax being optional and retiring everyone on final salary pensions.

Which is what many of us said.

Looks like Macedonia is next. And it is being pushed by Germany. What is their economy like?

It is all about making the EU as big as they can and forget about the consequences.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (54 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

Remain

Leave

Undecided

Not registered or not intention to vote

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency