The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (13 Viewers)

martcov · Aug 5, 2018

Astute said:
So you have never mentioned no deal or that Barnier won't give us what we want?

OK Mart. We believe you.

Individual MEP's?

Not all of them are nothing back at home. But you would like them to be for the purpose of this thread.

Is Sebastien Kurz a nobody to you? Even you can't say he isn't. He is fully on the side of there being a good deal between us. He praised Barnier for his efforts but then told him it must move forward for the benefit of everyone in the EU. And they can't ignore Kurz.

I mentioned that at this moment of time, no deal is certainly possible. I mentioned that we would probably have a BINO Norway Type deal.

What Barnier is talking about now would be a huge humiliation... according to Farage today. Liam Fox thinks there is a good chance of no deal.

But you are trying to say it is me that is saying these things.

Sebastian Kurz is not an MEP. Kurz and others want a deal. As does Barnier. As does May. What are you saying that is different? The only thing is what the deal will be. No one knows. You think Barnier is going to give us everything and Farage and co think that what Barnier is talking about should be rejected, and, if necessary we leave on WTO terms.

No reason for jumping for joy yet.

martcov · Aug 5, 2018

Grendel said:
When you look at stock market valuations most pension funds have the view British based companies and the pound are already valued at hard Brexit levels - many funds and articles suggest its the best time to now buy.

On the other hand the same funds are stating that the European market so tread with caution.

A crash out will damage many European countries and also the euro. The poorer states relying on painfully low bank rates will not cope with subsequent inflation rises and interstate rate rises and any crash in the euro will kill Greece overnight.

So of course there is panic on the Eu side

Panic hasn’t reached me yet. The headlines here are about the heat and resulting drought. My daughter is in southern Spain.. 44 degrees. Here was in Berlin 37 degrees. No one is talking about Brexit where I am. The government is going to have to give billions of relief to farmers. That is a discussion point here.

martcov · Aug 5, 2018

Astute said:
Should suffer the worse?

Why should we? So you can congratulate the leave voters on what they have caused?

Barnier and Juncker always made out that they had a mandate to follow. This was a plan to jeep us in the EU. They even said they wouldn't hold anything against us if we stayed in the EU. But the plan hasn't worked so far. Some of us said all the time that it was hard ball tactics.

Barnier has now admitted that a hard Brexit would harm the EU. He says he doesn't want it to happen. He doesn't want to destabilise the EU. He has said that he can only offer a trade deal and joint security but we can also have talks.

So what does that tell you?

Not having a trade deal with us will harm us. But it would also harm the EU. True?

He can't hide now when he says he is following what other members want. They are telling him that they want a deal. And they are saying it publicly. A trade deal would benefit both sides. And depending on how much money we still donate to the EU cause is who will be better off. Or do you say they should go against members views and bite their nose off to spite their face?

Barnier has a mandate from 27 countries.

Hard Brexit will hurt the EU. No one has denied that. The thinking is that it will hurt one country more than a group of 27 countries.

Everyone wants a deal.

So what is new?

Grendel · Aug 5, 2018

martcov said:
Panic hasn’t reached me yet. The headlines here are about the heat and resulting drought. My daughter is in southern Spain.. 44 degrees. Here was in Berlin 37 degrees. No one is talking about Brexit where I am. The government is going to have to give billions of relief to farmers. That is a discussion point here.

No one is talking about it here either - what’s your point?

Astute · Aug 5, 2018

martcov said:
I mentioned that at this moment of time, no deal is certainly possible. I mentioned that we would probably have a BINO Norway Type deal.

What Barnier is talking about now would be a huge humiliation... according to Farage today. Liam Fox thinks there is a good chance of no deal.

But you are trying to say it is me that is saying these things.

Sebastian Kurz is not an MEP. Kurz and others want a deal. As does Barnier. As does May. What are you saying that is different? The only thing is what the deal will be. No one knows. You think Barnier is going to give us everything and Farage and co think that what Barnier is talking about should be rejected, and, if necessary we leave on WTO terms.

No reason for jumping for joy yet.

And you are not contradicting yourself?

What Barnier is saying is a reversal of what he has said before. Agreed?

So if they all want a deal why do you think there won't be one? They all know what is best for all. And it doesn't look like they will be able to change what is happening.

Yes Kurz isn't an MEP. Would you like to explain to everyone who he is? Because you make out that he doesn't have a voice but for 6 months he has one of the loudest voices.

Jumping for joy? Not at all. But it looks a lot better than just a couple of weeks ago when you were saying how desperate it was going to be. As usual you made out that your opinion was the only one worth listening to.

Astute · Aug 5, 2018

martcov said:
Panic hasn’t reached me yet. The headlines here are about the heat and resulting drought. My daughter is in southern Spain.. 44 degrees. Here was in Berlin 37 degrees. No one is talking about Brexit where I am. The government is going to have to give billions of relief to farmers. That is a discussion point here.

But in the EU there are two main points worth discussing. External EU immigration and Brexit. There is more to life than the bubble Mart lives in.

Astute · Aug 5, 2018

martcov said:
Barnier has a mandate from 27 countries.

Hard Brexit will hurt the EU. No one has denied that. The thinking is that it will hurt one country more than a group of 27 countries.

Everyone wants a deal.

So what is new?

The mandate has changed drastically. Most people of the EU have spoken against what Barnier has been saying. He has had to do an about turn. His hardball tactics didn't work. People are worried.

You denied how much it would hurt the EU. You said it wouldn't hurt much as it would be spread over 27 countries. You tried to deny how much it would hurt the German car makers even when they said it would put about 12,000 German jobs at risk. 12,000 well paid jobs.

I am glad you don't run the EU. You would prefer everyone to suffer than admit that you could well be wrong.

Just docking in Bute. Look forward to your reply later.

martcov · Aug 5, 2018

Astute said:
And you are not contradicting yourself?

What Barnier is saying is a reversal of what he has said before. Agreed?

So if they all want a deal why do you think there won't be one? They all know what is best for all. And it doesn't look like they will be able to change what is happening.

Yes Kurz isn't an MEP. Would you like to explain to everyone who he is? Because you make out that he doesn't have a voice but for 6 months he has one of the loudest voices.

Jumping for joy? Not at all. But it looks a lot better than just a couple of weeks ago when you were saying how desperate it was going to be. As usual you made out that your opinion was the only one worth listening to.

How has Barnier reversed? We are the ones threatening no deal is better than a bad deal.

I said he isn’t an MEP. I didn’t say he hadn’t got a voice.

Looks better to some. A lot of frothing of the mouth on Farage‘s phone in today. They are of a different opinion to you. They, his callers, want no deal. Not me, not Barnier. Barnier gets his instructions from the 27.

Astute · Aug 5, 2018

martcov said:
How has Barnier reversed? We are the ones threatening no deal is better than a bad deal.

I said he isn’t an MEP. I didn’t say he hadn’t got a voice.

Looks better to some. A lot of frothing of the mouth on Farage‘s phone in today. They are of a different opinion to you. They, his callers, want no deal. Not me, not Barnier. Barnier gets his instructions from the 27.

Ah. So Barnier previously was saying that he wants there to be a trade deal?

Yes no deal for us is better than a bad deal. But I do not believe that we will end up with a bad deal.

And although you say the opposite the EU admitted that there is no legal way to make us pay them any money when we leave.

You just said Kurz isn't an MEP. That was all you said. As usual you missed out the details.

So what say does Farage have in the UK? Yes absolutely nothing. His followers can say what they want. The AfD in Germany have a much bigger say than Farage in the UK. But you make out that their say is negligible. So which is true?

martcov · Aug 5, 2018

Astute said:
Ah. So Barnier previously was saying that he wants there to be a trade deal?

Yes no deal for us is better than a bad deal. But I do not believe that we will end up with a bad deal.

And although you say the opposite the EU admitted that there is no legal way to make us pay them any money when we leave.

You just said Kurz isn't an MEP. That was all you said. As usual you missed out the details.

So what say does Farage have in the UK? Yes absolutely nothing. His followers can say what they want. The AfD in Germany have a much bigger say than Farage in the UK. But you make out that their say is negligible. So which is true?

Barnier is there to negotiate the future relationship with Britain which includes a deal. It would be pretty pointless to have a negotiator if you didn’t want a deal. He has always said we could have a deal.

We will have to honour things we signed up to.

Kurz isn’t an MEP and you were referring to MEPs saying things.

Farage has hinted he would return to lead UKIP if he thought Brexit was being betrayed. UKIP will be getting loads of money from Bannon’s backers. He has a radio talk show 5 days a week, he has massive support from the Express and other right wing publications and he is all over YouTube which he claims bought him into the limelight.

You underestimate his following.

His followers are all over the place. If we had a PR voting system you could gauge his support much b

Grendel · Aug 5, 2018

martcov said:
Barnier is there to negotiate the future relationship with Britain which includes a deal. It would be pretty pointless to have a negotiator if you didn’t want a deal. He has always said we could have a deal.

We will have to honour things we signed up to.

Kurz isn’t an MEP and you were referring to MEPs saying things.

Farage has hinted he would return to lead UKIP if he thought Brexit was being betrayed. UKIP will be getting loads of money from Bannon’s backers. He has a radio talk show 5 days a week, he has massive support from the Express and other right wing publications and he is all over YouTube which he claims bought him into the limelight.

You underestimate his following.

His followers are all over the place. If we had a PR voting system you could gauge his support much b

Farage has zero following in the uk. I don’t think people generally consider him in the way you do but he’s a one issue politician and always has been.

The only reason he ever got elected for anything is the fact that the public have zero interest in Brussels so only real tub thumpers vote and they vote in a way they would not in a general election.

You are very removed from Britain if you think Farage is anything other than a comedy figure here. Alright on a quiz show, helps the debate along on Question Time but has no value as a real politician

Sick Boy · Aug 5, 2018

Grendel said:
Farage has zero following in the uk. I don’t think people generally consider him in the way you do but he’s a one issue politician and always has been.

The only reason he ever got elected for anything is the fact that the public have zero interest in Brussels so only real tub thumpers vote and they vote in a way they would not in a general election.

You are very removed from Britain if you think Farage is anything other than a comedy figure here. Alright on a quiz show, helps the debate along on Question Time but has no value as a real politician

Completely disagree with that, there are plenty who see him as a real politician

Grendel · Aug 5, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Completely disagree with that, there are plenty who see him as a real politician

Who?

SkyblueBazza · Aug 5, 2018

martcov said:
I have never ever said we are not getting a deal. You made that up again. I have constantly said that Davis had 2 years to put something forward. He couldn’t. May has, and now the EU has something to discuss. They have said we can have a deal of some sort from the beginning. Without a proposal Barnier couldn’t do anything.

He has a brief from 27 countries. What individual MEPs say, is not necessarily the view of their country‘s government. Otherwise you could quote Farage as speaking for the British government.

Liam Fox says the chance of a no deal is 60:40 no deal. He is not as optimistic as yourself.

What is this brief being pursued by the negotiators...& is it in tune with the brief the 27 have given...or in tune with the unelected Secretary-General & his boss?

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SkyblueBazza · Aug 5, 2018

Astute said:
Was on BBC Parliament as I said.

Try watching it. Did I say panic? Of course I didn't. But you can see that they are worried.

So why else do you think that Barnier is saying the opposite to just a couple of weeks ago?

He has a habit of doing that. He translates understandable 'worried' to be PANIC.

I think they call it hypersensitivity

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SkyblueBazza · Aug 5, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Where is there any indication of a decent long-term deal? Both sides would suffer but in the long-term, IMO, the UK should suffer worse.

"Should"???
A deal is something which benefits both parties. Think ypu might be out of step with 27 countries there...but maybe in tune with Junckers

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SkyblueBazza · Aug 5, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Apologies meant WOULD!!
Off to the beach, will reply later!

Ahhh...apology accepted

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SkyblueBazza · Aug 5, 2018

martcov said:
Panic hasn’t reached me yet. The headlines here are about the heat and resulting drought. My daughter is in southern Spain.. 44 degrees. Here was in Berlin 37 degrees. No one is talking about Brexit where I am. The government is going to have to give billions of relief to farmers. That is a discussion point here.

Funnily enough...apart from the media & the rare occasion I hear people expressing 'fudge' these days...I don't hear anyone talking about it here either.

Maybe the man in the street is wiser than many not in the street. They know the card-sharps will work out the best & alternative ways of keeping the money wheels churning, & it won't make too much difference to them.

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SkyblueBazza · Aug 5, 2018

martcov said:
We will have to honour things we signed up to.

That would be up for negotiation. True to form with yourself...it is not a given fact - until it is agreed & signed off as a part of any final deal.

QUOTE="martcov, post: 1588686, member: 5800"]You underestimate his following.[/QUOTE]

You appear to follow him more extensively than anyone else I come into contact with.

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dutchman · Aug 6, 2018

martcov said:
Barnier has a mandate from 27 countries.

Hard Brexit will hurt the EU. No one has denied that. The thinking is that it will hurt one country more than a group of 27 countries.

Everyone wants a deal.

No they don't. If Britain gets a deal every other member state will demand a deal and the EU will cease to exist in all but name. Holland for example will demand terms at least equal to what Britain has been granted.

Astute · Aug 6, 2018

martcov said:
Barnier is there to negotiate the future relationship with Britain which includes a deal. It would be pretty pointless to have a negotiator if you didn’t want a deal. He has always said we could have a deal.

We will have to honour things we signed up to.

Kurz isn’t an MEP and you were referring to MEPs saying things.

Farage has hinted he would return to lead UKIP if he thought Brexit was being betrayed. UKIP will be getting loads of money from Bannon’s backers. He has a radio talk show 5 days a week, he has massive support from the Express and other right wing publications and he is all over YouTube which he claims bought him into the limelight.

You underestimate his following.

His followers are all over the place. If we had a PR voting system you could gauge his support much b

They have just started to follow the mandate.

Or are you telling me that the other 27 countries decided that we had to sort out the problem of Ireland and other things before we could even start considering a trade deal when a trade deal first would have solved most of the problems of Ireland was wanted by the other 27 countries?

And you still refuse to even consider that the so called negotiating from the EU took this route to try and make us stay in the EU. It was just a refusal of everything put forward. Then threats that all flights would be stopped.

It has been nothing but threats and scare tactics. But the worry from the other 27 countries has finally stopped project fear. Reality has hit home. Barnier can't pretend any more that the other 27 countries want what he has been saying.

Yes those who like us who actually contribute to EU funds will still try to make us stay in the EU. Because us leaving will cost them billions of pounds extra each year. But the majority have spoken out loud.

So Barnier now talking about a deal, saying the wording of what he has been saying will be changed and also saying that there can be future negotiations on changes is not Barnier changing what he has said previously?

Astute · Aug 6, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Completely disagree with that, there are plenty who see him as a real politician

He is seen as a joke by the vast majority. And as you are in the UK you will know it.

People voted for UKIP because they wanted out of the EU. UKIP's mandate was to get us out of the EU. Simple as that. Cameron felt the pressure of losing votes to UKIP. People were not voting for UKIP because they liked Farage.

So what has happened to UKIP since the Brexit vote? If Farage was as big as you always make out they would still vote for him.

martcov · Aug 6, 2018

Grendel said:
No one is talking about it here either - what’s your point?

Your point was that the EU is in panic. It isn’t as far as I can gauge.

martcov · Aug 6, 2018

Astute said:
He is seen as a joke by the vast majority. And as you are in the UK you will know it.

People voted for UKIP because they wanted out of the EU. UKIP's mandate was to get us out of the EU. Simple as that. Cameron felt the pressure of losing votes to UKIP. People were not voting for UKIP because they liked Farage.

So what has happened to UKIP since the Brexit vote? If Farage was as big as you always make out they would still vote for him.

They couldn‘t vote for him as he was not up for election. He is still an influencer. He is spouting the anti EU line constantly and people follow him and take his rhetoric in. Which reflects in their opinions on, say, May. Now UKIP are being joined by scallywags like Watson and will be supported by Bannon and co.. Farage is dying to get back in the game.

martcov · Aug 6, 2018

Astute said:
They have just started to follow the mandate.

Or are you telling me that the other 27 countries decided that we had to sort out the problem of Ireland and other things before we could even start considering a trade deal when a trade deal first would have solved most of the problems of Ireland was wanted by the other 27 countries?

And you still refuse to even consider that the so called negotiating from the EU took this route to try and make us stay in the EU. It was just a refusal of everything put forward. Then threats that all flights would be stopped.

It has been nothing but threats and scare tactics. But the worry from the other 27 countries has finally stopped project fear. Reality has hit home. Barnier can't pretend any more that the other 27 countries want what he has been saying.

Yes those who like us who actually contribute to EU funds will still try to make us stay in the EU. Because us leaving will cost them billions of pounds extra each year. But the majority have spoken out loud.

So Barnier now talking about a deal, saying the wording of what he has been saying will be changed and also saying that there can be future negotiations on changes is not Barnier changing what he has said previously?

Of course the other 27 countries want Ireland solved before a trade deal. It is a border control of an EU land border. Why wouldn’t they?

You cannot have a trade deal without first explaining how you are going to enforce it.

Our position is to say no deal is better than a bad deal.

It took 2 years to get to a white paper. That is not Barnier‘s fault. As to people speaking loudly for leave, May asked for a strong mandate and lost the overall majority.

People like you actually contribute to EU funds? What do you think happens in Germany and France?

martcov · Aug 6, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
What is this brief being pursued by the negotiators...& is it in tune with the brief the 27 have given...or in tune with the unelected Secretary-General & his boss?

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Yes. It is tune with the 27. which is what he claimed in his open letter. If they say it isn’t, then he will have to step down, but they haven’t said that.

martcov · Aug 6, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
That would be up for negotiation. True to form with yourself...it is not a given fact - until it is agreed & signed off as a part of any final deal.

QUOTE="martcov, post: 1588686, member: 5800"]You underestimate his following.

You appear to follow him more extensively than anyone else I come into contact with.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

If you have signed up to things, you have already negotiated. If you agree it a second time by accepting the acceptance, then there is no way out. Which is what we have done.

martcov · Aug 6, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
He has a habit of doing that. He translates understandable 'worried' to be PANIC.

I think they call it hypersensitivity

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No. Panic was quoted by your mentor, and I was answering his point.

Astute · Aug 6, 2018

martcov said:
They couldn‘t vote for him as he was not up for election. He is still an influencer. He is spouting the anti EU line constantly and people follow him and take his rhetoric in. Which reflects in their opinions on, say, May. Now UKIP are being joined by scallywags like Watson and will be supported by Bannon and co.. Farage is dying to get back in the game.

You just don't have a clue or you are not being truthful. Take your pick.

UKIP are finished in the UK. Farage is seen as a clown. The only influence he has is in the EU.

End of.

Sick Boy · Aug 6, 2018

Astute said:
You just don't have a clue or you are not being truthful. Take your pick.

UKIP are finished in the UK. Farage is seen as a clown. The only influence he has is in the EU.

End of.

Just did a Google Search and there's plenty of articles about a 'clown'. I'd also say Farage has minimal influence in the EU.

Astute · Aug 6, 2018

martcov said:
Of course the other 27 countries want Ireland solved before a trade deal. It is a border control of an EU land border. Why wouldn’t they?

You cannot have a trade deal without first explaining how you are going to enforce it.

Our position is to say no deal is better than a bad deal.

It took 2 years to get to a white paper. That is not Barnier‘s fault. As to people speaking loudly for leave, May asked for a strong mandate and lost the overall majority.

People like you actually contribute to EU funds? What do you think happens in Germany and France?

Barnier was saying that Ireland must be sorted before there was a trade deal. The other 27 countries are not saying that the Ireland problem must be sorted before a trade deal.

How about keeping to the truth?

I will explain to you yet again although I am certain that you are not thick.

Ireland can't be sorted easily at all until we know what sort of trade deal there is going to be. If we have a free trade agreement most of the problems are sorted. Goods can move freely. If tariffs are imposed then there is a lot of sorting out to do. Barnier and Juncker knew it was nearly impossible to solve Ireland before even starting talks on a trade deal. Anybody with 2 working brain cells knows this. It was just one of the attempts made to force us to stay in the EU. A nd you know this.

Barnier and Juncker have made it nearly impossible to put a plan together. They set no boundaries but just kept saying no to everything. Another attempt at forcing us to stay in the EU.

And back to you. You say that you cannot have a trade deal without first explaining how you are going to enforce it. But answer one thing. How can you plan to enforce something that you know nothing about?

Astute · Aug 6, 2018

martcov said:
Yes. It is tune with the 27. which is what he claimed in his open letter. If they say it isn’t, then he will have to step down, but they haven’t said that.

Those at the top of the EU don't stand down. Not even when the whole of the EU know they have a position that they have no rights of having because all the rules got broke.

Astute · Aug 6, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Just did a Google Search and there's plenty of articles about a 'clown'. I'd also say Farage has minimal influence in the EU.

Exactly.

Or are you using this to defend what Mart has said about him? Because if you are I don't see how it does.

Apologies if you agree with me.

Sick Boy · Aug 6, 2018

Astute said:
Exactly.

Or are you using this to defend what Mart has said about him? Because if you are I don't see how it does.

Apologies if you agree with me.

The general population see him as a clown and opportunist but there's certainly a minority of the population who taken him seriously.

Astute · Aug 6, 2018

Sick Boy said:
The general population see him as a clown and opportunist but there's certainly a minority of the population who taken him seriously.

But Mart constantly takes this small minority and makes a big deal out of it.

I say his only influence is the EU because it gives him a stage. He doesn't have one in the UK. The part I saw yesterday had many in the EU agree with him. Even I had to laugh when Juncker and others thought he was praising him until the punchline came.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (13 Viewers)

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