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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (8 Viewers)

  • Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
  • Start date Jun 8, 2016
Forums New posts

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
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M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,366
Astute said:
Exactly the same way it does now.

So what would be so difficult on not changing the way trade works presently?
Click to expand...

Because we are leaving the SM and CU and will not accept rulings of the ECJ. We will be importing from 3 rd party countries and their goods may not meet EU standards. If we stay in the SM and CU ( BINO ) we can carry on. Simple really, but May says we won’t be doing that. Corbyn wants a new CU which is cloud cuckoo land.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,367
Sick Boy said:
One day he claims that he wanted to get out the EU then all of a sudden pretends that he wanted to remain the whole time and now he has gone back to wanting to leave.
Click to expand...

Don’t worry, he’ll revert to Juncker in a minute as this is getting too complicated.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,368
Astute said:
But is the 7,400 That want DN in the EU massive when multiples want to stay in the UK?
Click to expand...

It must be easier in the UK. It is for people with Irish roots and people born in Northern Ireland.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,369
Grendel said:
Lawson would get a pension anyway so it’s not anything to do with Brexit Britain

Are we still half a million a year for Rumpy Pumpy to do nothing? Good job he is not Italian his successor will be telling him to work harder - or perhaps not.
Click to expand...

No, but living in the vile enemy EU territory in a chateau is to say the least, hypocritical.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,370
martcov said:
No, but living in the vile enemy EU territory in a chateau is to say the least, hypocritical.
Click to expand...

Is Rumpy Pumpy still getting half a million a year?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,371
Astute said:
We voted to leave the EU.

So that means we need to make agreements between each other. The best agreements would benefit both sides.

One of the agreements has to be about trade. So why can't we have a free trade agreement like now.

Try coming out with a logical reason. Because I can't think of a single one. The EU countries would even be better off with one. It isn't as though we have a massive surplus in trade with the EU. It is the EU that has a massive surplus with us.
Click to expand...

We have to agree on something for the EU to either agree with or dismiss. Until we know what brexit is what is the EU supposed to be agreeing on.

Why can’t we have a free trade agreement that we’ve voted to leave? Do I really have to explain that one to you? That’s like asking your ex wife why you can’t have a blow job on your birthday after you’ve divorced her. We’ve elected to leave that arrangement not the other way around. It staggers me how people say that we have to leave this free trade agreement because it’s protectionist etc. and then expect an automatic free trade agreement. It’s like their argument for leaving is irrelevant. Most of the arguments that Brexit backers levy for how a trade deal should be happening are like remain arguments in stealth mode. It’s an absolute nonsense.

The irony is that there are two different blueprints for free(ish) trade agreements with the EU ie the Norway option and the Canada option. The government isn’t even looking at these as a starting point and for one simple reason, they don’t have a workable agreement. Hence leave voters giving our government a get out of jail free card for governing the country and putting the onus on the EU to decide what brexit means. The we must take back control crowd don’t want us to take control. The irony.
 
Reactions: martcov

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,372
Astute said:
So how do we solve Ireland if we don't know the trade agreement?
Click to expand...
Trade is only one issue with the border. You have to work out what to do with people for starters.

If we're not part of free movement then surely it needs a hard border?

If you don't have that what stops it being a free for all, any EU citizen comes to Ireland and then just walks over the border and they are in the UK.

That's nothing like the 'control of our borders' that leave were pushing in their campaign.

If we get on to trade even if we have a free trade agreement with Europe what about other countries? Unless every agreement we have is identical to the EU, and therefore the same as Ireland, there needs to be a border.

These aren't little things that will be sorted easily. Really this should have been thought through in advance and a solution proposed so that those who voted leave knew what they were voting for.
 
Reactions: skybluetony176 and martcov

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,373
chiefdave said:
Trade is only one issue with the border. You have to work out what to do with people for starters.

If we're not part of free movement then surely it needs a hard border?

If you don't have that what stops it being a free for all, any EU citizen comes to Ireland and then just walks over the border and they are in the UK.

That's nothing like the 'control of our borders' that leave were pushing in their campaign.

If we get on to trade even if we have a free trade agreement with Europe what about other countries? Unless every agreement we have is identical to the EU, and therefore the same as Ireland, there needs to be a border.

These aren't little things that will be sorted easily. Really this should have been thought through in advance and a solution proposed so that those who voted leave knew what they were voting for.
Click to expand...
But any trade deal is massive when sorting out with Ireland. How can anything be sorted when we don't know how much needs to be sorted?

The last thing that anyone should want is a hard border in Ireland. That doesn't mean that we should stay in the EU just because of the problems with Ireland. If everyone worked together it would be much easier. But so far the EU hasn't done much except for have a go at anyone who wants to sort things out.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,374
Astute said:
But any trade deal is massive when sorting out with Ireland. How can anything be sorted when we don't know how much needs to be sorted?

The last thing that anyone should want is a hard border in Ireland. That doesn't mean that we should stay in the EU just because of the problems with Ireland. If everyone worked together it would be much easier. But so far the EU hasn't done much except for have a go at anyone who wants to sort things out.
Click to expand...

The EU doesn’t want a hard border, but if go to WTO rules without a deal, then it is compulsory to have a border. We have created this situation.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,375
martcov said:
The EU doesn’t want a hard border, but if go to WTO rules without a deal, then it is compulsory to have a border. We have created this situation.
Click to expand...

The Eu would love a hard border they are evil spiteful people - we have created nothing. We had the audacity to listen to the will of the people - something the bigoted corrupt filth in Brussels can’t stand. The same goes for you - you admit you couldn’t care less about any if the countries suffering under the Eu authoritarianism as long as your life is fine and dandy.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,376
Grendel said:
The Eu would love a hard border they are evil spiteful people - we have created nothing. We had the audacity to listen to the will of the people - something the bigoted corrupt filth in Brussels can’t stand. The same goes for you - you admit you couldn’t care less about any if the countries suffering under the Eu authoritarianism as long as your life is fine and dandy.
Click to expand...

You talk like a Daily Express Reader.

The EU is an organisation which we are a member of and have been for 40 years. It is not a racist right wing loopy person as yourself.

The will of the 52% voters is not the will of the people. Das Volkswillen... was the expression your predecessors used.

I have not admitted anything like that or agreed that I even said anything like that. You and Astute would make a good couple.

My life, and that of millions of EU citizens is fine and dandy, except if you read they Mail, Express and Breitbart. Then we have Nazis goosestepping in front of the front door, Muslims invading us, raping our children and burning our churches down. Of course not everything is perfect. It never was, but it is better than ever before in my lifetime.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,377
Grendel said:
The Eu would love a hard border they are evil spiteful people - we have created nothing. We had the audacity to listen to the will of the people - something the bigoted corrupt filth in Brussels can’t stand. The same goes for you - you admit you couldn’t care less about any if the countries suffering under the Eu authoritarianism as long as your life is fine and dandy.
Click to expand...

The UK created Brexit and the chaos and uncertainty that comes with it. You may have noticed that there was an advisory referendum on the subject... in the UK and no where else. It is our baby, but 2 Years later no one can explain how it is going to work.

Just soundbites from people like you. Meaningless sayings and assorted drivel, but no answers to the questions posed by Brexit.

Just blame Tusk or Juncker or Barnier... but never ever the 17,4 million who voted for Brexit or the scum that lead the campaign.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,378
Grendel said:
Is Rumpy Pumpy still getting half a million a year?
Click to expand...

I don’t know. How’s Moggs‘ Russian investments in his hedge fund portfolio coming along? How’s his Irish EU office coming along? Are Farage‘s children using their German PerSo or British passports on holiday?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,379
martcov said:
The UK created Brexit and the chaos and uncertainty that comes with it. You may have noticed that there was an advisory referendum on the subject... in the UK and no where else. It is our baby, but 2 Years later no one can explain how it is going to work.

Just soundbites from people like you. Meaningless sayings and assorted drivel, but no answers to the questions posed by Brexit.

Just blame Tusk or Juncker or Barnier... but never ever the 17,4 million who voted for Brexit or the scum that lead the campaign.
Click to expand...
If they wanted what was best for the citizens of the EU there wouldn't be a problem. But they are causing problems to try and get us to stay.

But you know this.
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,380
Sick Boy said:
Business as usual? In what way? Freedom of Movement? Then surely you believe the UK should say the same then as far as EU citizens go?
Click to expand...
The UK might still if the EU do so

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,381
skybluetony176 said:
The EU didn’t vote for us to leave we did. It’s our show. It doesn’t work both ways. We decided to leave it’s for us tho decide what that means it’s then for the EU to decide if that’s acceptable to them. Anything else and it’s no deal because we don’t know what we’ve voted for. You’ve voted to take back control and now you’re asking the EU to decide what that means. Can you really not see the contradiction in what you’re saying.
Click to expand...
Read back & you will find you're quite wrong.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,382
martcov said:
I’ll answer that for him.

No, he cannot.
Click to expand...
You can sod off...I will answer for myself

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,383
martcov said:
I don’t know... has the UK rushed in to help by accepting thousands of asylum seekers?
Click to expand...
I cannot understand your keep banging on about anyone else regurgitating the same old arguments. You're still stuck in 2000 when things appeared to be going well, but really TB was capitulating on many issues

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,384
SkyblueBazza said:
You can sod off...I will answer for myself

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yes, ok .. answer the question then..
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,385
SkyblueBazza said:
I cannot understand your keep banging on about anyone else regurgitating the same old arguments. You're still stuck in 2000 when things appeared to be going well, but really TB was capitulating on many issues

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I am talking in reply to Astute’s question relating to present day problems.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,386
Astute said:
If they wanted what was best for the citizens of the EU there wouldn't be a problem. But they are causing problems to try and get us to stay.

But you know this.
Click to expand...

No I don’t. They just said if you don’t come up with something soon there might not be a transition period.

In other words you will out on your arse. Not quite begging the UK to stay.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,387
martcov said:
will of the 52% voters
Click to expand...
Wasn't 52% of voters it was 52% of those who voted. Its a subtle but important difference as only 37% of registered voters put an x in the leave box.

That equates to 34% of voting age population or 27% of total population.

If Cameron hadn't been so sure he was going to win a bit more thought would have been put in to the mechanics of the vote.
 
Reactions: SkyblueBazza and martcov
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,388
chiefdave said:
Wasn't 52% of voters it was 52% of those who voted. Its a subtle but important difference as only 37% of registered voters put an x in the leave box.

That equates to 34% of voting age population or 27% of total population.

If Cameron hadn't been so sure he was going to win a bit more thought would have been put in to the mechanics of the vote.
Click to expand...

Yes I should have phrased that better. To come to the conclusion that it is the will of the people when only a minority actually took the trouble to vote for Brexit is pushing it a bit far. The Conservatives would not say that they are governing according to the will of the people, therefore labour should get over it and not come to parliament as the will of the people has been expressed.

To use that phrase is to deny a democratic right of opposition.

The Nazis claimed exactly the same that they were carrying out the will of the people. A dangerous precedent.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,389
chiefdave said:
Wasn't 52% of voters it was 52% of those who voted. Its a subtle but important difference as only 37% of registered voters put an x in the leave box.

That equates to 34% of voting age population or 27% of total population.

If Cameron hadn't been so sure he was going to win a bit more thought would have been put in to the mechanics of the vote.
Click to expand...

That’s totally irrelevant
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,390
Grendel said:
That’s totally irrelevant
Click to expand...

No it isn’t. You just say things without foundation. Brexit is not the will of the people. They won an advisory referendum and around 50 % of the actual voters did not vote for Brexit, which is a majority that didn’t vote for Brexit if you include all registered voters. It was a slim majority of actual voters. Ok. You can say it was a majority vote, but it is nowhere near an expression of the will of the people. The government has no right to ignore the will of the people who didn’t vote for Brexit. At best they should go for a compromise such as a BRINO deal.

The have no mandate to disenfranchise half of the electorate. Any deal has to be acceptable to the majority of the people. No one knows what the deal on the table will be. There has to be another vote on this calamity.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,391
martcov said:
No it isn’t. You just say things without foundation. Brexit is not the will of the people. They won an advisory referendum and around 50 % of the actual voters did not vote for Brexit, which is a majority if you include all registered voters. It was a slim majority of voters. Ok. You can say it was a majority vote, but it is nowhere near an expression of the will of the people. The government has no right to ignore the will of the people who didn’t vote for Brexit. At best they should go for a compromise such as a BRINO deal.

The have no mandate to disenfranchise half of the electorate. Any deal has to be acceptable to the majority of the people. No one knows what the deal on the table will be. There has to be another vote on this calamity.
Click to expand...

It’s irrelevant. The question was stay or remain in the EU - those who abstained from voting by definition were not interested in the outcome.

Another vote to make the right choice is the way of a banana republic

One party stood for that at the election - remind me how well they did.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,392
SkyblueBazza said:
The UK might still if the EU do so

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

One of the main reason which was cited as a reason to leave was FoM
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,393
Grendel said:
It’s irrelevant. The question was stay or remain in the EU - those who abstained from voting by definition were not interested in the outcome.

Another vote to make the right choice is the way of a banana republic

One party stood for that at the election - remind me how well they did.
Click to expand...

Brexit was not a key issue in the election.
 
Reactions: martcov

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,394
Grendel said:
That’s totally irrelevant
Click to expand...
Been a few posts on here where you've implied people shouldn't have a say in things but calling the result of a vote totally irrelevant is a bit much!
 
Reactions: martcov

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,395
chiefdave said:
Been a few posts on here where you've implied people shouldn't have a say in things but calling the result of a vote totally irrelevant is a bit much!
Click to expand...

Including non voters is irrelevant
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,396
Grendel said:
Including non voters is irrelevant
Click to expand...
That would only be true if leavers weren't constantly going on about the will of the people.

You're drawing a conclusion about those who didn't vote to suit you preference when in reality you can have no idea what a higher turnout would have meant to the end result. You can't claim something is the will of the people when only 27% of the population voted for it!
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,397
chiefdave said:
Wasn't 52% of voters it was 52% of those who voted. Its a subtle but important difference as only 37% of registered voters put an x in the leave box.

That equates to 34% of voting age population or 27% of total population.

If Cameron hadn't been so sure he was going to win a bit more thought would have been put in to the mechanics of the vote.
Click to expand...
What % put the X in the remain box?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,398
Grendel said:
Including non voters is irrelevant
Click to expand...

In the vote yes, but implying that they are there in the will of the people is not true. It is not the will of the people. It is the will of 17,4 million people. The majority of who voted, but not the „people“. You are telling the remainers thst it is their will as „the people“. You take away their vote and right of opposition. No, that is not democracy. They lost, but they have an opinion and a „will“. This is not „Triumph des Willens“ as in the famous Nazi film, this is a narrow victory.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,399
chiefdave said:
That would only be true if leavers weren't constantly going on about the will of the people.

You're drawing a conclusion about those who didn't vote to suit you preference when in reality you can have no idea what a higher turnout would have meant to the end result. You can't claim something is the will of the people when only 27% of the population voted for it!
Click to expand...
27%? You are starting to sound like Mart.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 30, 2018
  • #15,400
Astute said:
What % put the X in the remain box?
Click to expand...

The point being over 16 million voted remain and others didn’t vote, so it is a Faragism to claim that Brexit is the „will of the people“.
 
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