The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (14 Viewers)

torchomatic · Jun 26, 2018

Grendel said:
Not really because you are basing an argument around the fact that the desire to leave Europe is from fat cats who care less about ordinary people.

Whatever my comments and opinions have been about Mr Corbyn it’s very hard to argue that his intention actually is to stand up for the working classes. So clearly his view (along with the shadow chancellor) is that people would actually be better off in a country free of European interference. The same actually applies the the Socialist Workers Party and the Communist Party both of whom are hardly going to be so unprincipled as to just side with Reece Mogg.

Corbyn siding with the government on Brexit certainly does mean he is not standing up for working class people and the millions of Labour voters like myself who voted remain. All the remain voters are continually ignored by all sides. The most annoying phrase we get to hear is the old chesnut "will of the people". Well, that's bollocks, it's the will of a minority of people in the UK.

And I think you put it nicely, although you didn't mean to, Brexit is being driven by fat cats and their pals like Farage and Banks. And no, they couldn't care less about ordinary people. Hence the story on Bloomberg yesterday. They made a killing out of shafting us all over Brexit. Then again, you maybe one of the few who actually did vote to make the country poorer. You'll get your wish, I think.

martcov · Jun 26, 2018

Grendel said:
Not really because you are basing an argument around the fact that the desire to leave Europe is from fat cats who care less about ordinary people.

Whatever my comments and opinions have been about Mr Corbyn it’s very hard to argue that his intention actually is to stand up for the working classes. So clearly his view (along with the shadow chancellor) is that people would actually be better off in a country free of European interference. The same actually applies the the Socialist Workers Party and the Communist Party both of whom are hardly going to be so unprincipled as to just side with Reece Mogg.

Strange bedfellows indeed. Not the first time in history that left and right combine to get what they want... doing it in Italy right now... then there was the Hitler Stalin Pact... and The Vatican and the Nazis .. oops that was religious right and Nazis.. no matter all‘s fair in love and war.. for some.

Ashdown · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
Corbyn siding with the government on Brexit certainly does mean he is not standing up for working class people and the millions of Labour voters like myself who voted remain. All the remain voters are continually ignored by all sides. The most annoying phrase we get to hear is the old chesnut "will of the people". Well, that's bollocks, it's the will of a minority of people in the UK.

And I think you put it nicely, although you didn't mean to, Brexit is being driven by fat cats and their pals like Farage and Banks. And no, they couldn't care less about ordinary people. Hence the story on Bloomberg yesterday. They made a killing out of shafting us all over Brexit. Then again, you maybe one of the few who actually did vote to make the country poorer. You'll get your wish, I think.

I'm not sure how anyone can concretely say they will vote for one party or the other at all times. I've voted for both parties at different times in history when I thought the country needed a change.

Grendel · Jun 26, 2018

martcov said:
Strange bedfellows indeed. Not the first time in history that left and right combine to get what they want... doing it in Italy right now... then there was the Hitler Stalin Pact... and The Vatican and the Nazis .. oops that was religious right and Nazis.. no matter all‘s fair in love and war.. for some.

No they aren’t bedfellows at all. Once again you miss a point through lack of understanding and come up with an absurd and irrelevant point.

The basic socialist principals are totally opposed to having a right wing superstate control and dictate policies. Corbyn has through his time in politics voted against Eu legislation repeatedly. The notion the likes of him, Benn, foot etc are some kind of closet neo right conspirators is up there at the top of your delusions.

If you believe in socialism you can’t believe in the EU

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

martcov said:
Do you know what was discussed yesterday? If not, how do you know that the answer is making „them stay in Greece and Italy“?

So how long has it taken them since they made Italy and Greece do it all alone?

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
Corbyn siding with the government on Brexit certainly does mean he is not standing up for working class people and the millions of Labour voters like myself who voted remain. All the remain voters are continually ignored by all sides. The most annoying phrase we get to hear is the old chesnut "will of the people". Well, that's bollocks, it's the will of a minority of people in the UK.

And I think you put it nicely, although you didn't mean to, Brexit is being driven by fat cats and their pals like Farage and Banks. And no, they couldn't care less about ordinary people. Hence the story on Bloomberg yesterday. They made a killing out of shafting us all over Brexit. Then again, you maybe one of the few who actually did vote to make the country poorer. You'll get your wish, I think.

The rich and young voted remain. The poor and old voted leave.

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

martcov said:
Strange bedfellows indeed. Not the first time in history that left and right combine to get what they want... doing it in Italy right now... then there was the Hitler Stalin Pact... and The Vatican and the Nazis .. oops that was religious right and Nazis.. no matter all‘s fair in love and war.. for some.

Like in Germany at present.

torchomatic · Jun 26, 2018

Ashdown said:
I'm not sure how anyone can concretely say they will vote for one party or the other at all times. I've voted for both parties at different times in history when I thought the country needed a change.

I could never EVER vote for the conservative party regardless of whether I thought the country "needed a change". It's all about the policies and the policies of the conservative party heavily lean towards the Haves of this world.

torchomatic · Jun 26, 2018

Astute said:
The rich and young voted remain. The poor and old voted leave.

LOL. How simplistic. Total rubbish, of course.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
Corbyn siding with the government on Brexit certainly does mean he is not standing up for working class people and the millions of Labour voters like myself who voted remain.

But if you voted Labour you voted for a party who stated in their manifesto

Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.

If Corbyn said he was ignoring the result of the referendum and was going to oppose leaving the EU he would be crucified in the media for going against the electorate. Their are Labour voters who voted leave, would they be happy with that?

torchomatic · Jun 26, 2018

chiefdave said:
But if you voted Labour you voted for a party who stated in their manifesto

If Corbyn said he was ignoring the result of the referendum and was going to oppose leaving the EU he would be crucified in the media for going against the electorate. Their are Labour voters who voted leave, would they be happy with that?

Well, of course, not everyone is going to be pleased. Either leavers or remainers are going to be pissed off. However, considering the general consensus is the country will be poorer post-Brexit then I would like to think a leader of a major party would have the balls to state he doesn't want to back such an insane ideology.

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
LOL. How simplistic. Total rubbish, of course.

Which part is rubbish?

Just name any part.

Ashdown · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
I could never EVER vote for the conservative party regardless of whether I thought the country "needed a change". It's all about the policies and the policies of the conservative party heavily lean towards the Haves of this world.

But in my humble opinion favouring some of the haves and the people prepared to work hard has been more favourable than backing a political set up that looks too kindly on the 'Can't be fucking arsed', 'I'm going to feign illness for benefits' and I'm gonna get to the UK whatever it takes for an easier life and free health service brigade !!
It galls me that the super rich keep getting richer and it galls me that there are still millions of people in the UK leeching off others contributions......I'm just generally galled !!

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2018

All I'm seeing, from all sides including those doing the negotiating, is people making sweeping statements and giving soundbite statements.

We're now 276 days from leaving the EU. We're a million miles away from being ready to leave IMO. In fact you'd struggle to find anything you could point to as dealt with and ready.

Things need to start happening quickly. At this stage we should be hearing of various deals and parts of the leave agreement being completed pretty much on a daily basis. Instead we're still arguing about what Brexit means past Brexit means Brexit.

torchomatic · Jun 26, 2018

Ashdown said:
But in my humble opinion favouring some of the haves and the people prepared to work hard has been more favourable than backing a political set up that looks too kindly on the 'Can't be fucking arsed', 'I'm going to feign illness for benefits' and I'm gonna get to the UK whatever it takes for an easier life and free health service brigade !!
It galls me that the super rich keep getting richer and it galls me that there are still millions of people in the UK leeching off others contributions......I'm just generally galled !!

Ah, there you go. I'm surprised you didn't mention they probably have big flat screen teles too.

torchomatic · Jun 26, 2018

Astute said:
Which part is rubbish?

Just name any part.

I'm not young and I'm not rich (far from it) and I voted remain.

martcov · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
Corbyn siding with the government on Brexit certainly does mean he is not standing up for working class people and the millions of Labour voters like myself who voted remain. All the remain voters are continually ignored by all sides. The most annoying phrase we get to hear is the old chesnut "will of the people". Well, that's bollocks, it's the will of a minority of people in the UK.

And I think you put it nicely, although you didn't mean to, Brexit is being driven by fat cats and their pals like Farage and Banks. And no, they couldn't care less about ordinary people. Hence the story on Bloomberg yesterday. They made a killing out of shafting us all over Brexit. Then again, you maybe one of the few who actually did vote to make the country poorer. You'll get your wish, I think.

Well said.

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
I'm not young and I'm not rich (far from it) and I voted remain.

Are you 100% of the millions or just 1?

So do you disagree that the majority of younger and rich voters voted remain and the majority of poor and older voters voted leave?

martcov · Jun 26, 2018

Astute said:
So how long has it taken them since they made Italy and Greece do it all alone?

Geography not the EU.

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

martcov said:
Geography not the EU.

Yes. Germany is safe from the boats landing. So why not?

martcov · Jun 26, 2018

Astute said:
They are waiting to rubbish them again to try and put pressure on us to stay.

If they wanted it to work they would be in constant communication saying what they would like to see and what they could see working without going over the top.

Constant communication? Why? It’s us who wants to change things. Our workable proposals on the table then. Besides they published what they wanted on the internet. The UK only has to google it. The problem is the UK as it hasn’t got a clear governmental plan.

torchomatic · Jun 26, 2018

Astute said:
Are you 100% of the millions or just 1?

So do you disagree that the majority of younger and rich voters voted remain and the majority of poor and older voters voted leave?

I'm disagreeing with your black and white view of it. I'm sure if I said only racists and xenophobes voted to leave then I'd be vilified for making sweeping statements.

Ashdown · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
Ah, there you go. I'm surprised you didn't mention they probably have big flat screen teles too.

You may well joke !!

martcov · Jun 26, 2018

Astute said:
Yes. Germany is safe from the boats landing. So why not?

Germany and others met at the weekend to see how to make things fairer. Germany took 1 million refugees in 2015 although none landed on it’s coast. How many did Britain take? Now tell that to the Greeks and Italians. Ask them if they think Britain or Germany showed more solidarity.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
Well, of course, not everyone is going to be pleased. Either leavers or remainers are going to be pissed off. However, considering the general consensus is the country will be poorer post-Brexit then I would like to think a leader of a major party would have the balls to state he doesn't want to back such an insane ideology.

There's another issue. If you have Conservative as leave and Labour as main then the next election result would be viewed as a statement on Brexit. Should Labour not win it adds weight to the leave argument that they are carrying out the wishes of the electorate.

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

martcov said:
Germany and others met at the weekend to see how to make things fairer. Germany took 1 million refugees in 2015 although none landed on it’s coast. How many did Britain take? Now tell that to the Greeks and Italians. Ask them if they think Britain or Germany showed more solidarity.

So like I said it has been unfair for the last 3 years.

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

chiefdave said:
There's another issue. If you have Conservative as leave and Labour as main then the next election result would be viewed as a statement on Brexit. Should Labour not win it adds weight to the leave argument that they are carrying out the wishes of the electorate.

Or people don't like those running the Labour party.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2018

Astute said:
Or people don't like those running the Labour party.

That's not how it would go. If Labour ran a campaign that included a manifesto pledge to either not leave the EU or at least have another referendum and Labour then lost that election it would be held up as proof the result of the original referendum was valid and that was what the electorate wanted.

martcov · Jun 26, 2018

Astute said:
So like I said it has been unfair for the last 3 years.

completely. Merkel has been left alone with the problem of people fleeing a warzone. Or, as Breitbart would say, muslim economic immigrants and terrorists.

Grendel · Jun 26, 2018

chiefdave said:
There's another issue. If you have Conservative as leave and Labour as main then the next election result would be viewed as a statement on Brexit. Should Labour not win it adds weight to the leave argument that they are carrying out the wishes of the electorate.

You do realise labours true political ideology is anti Eu and the Tories is to remain?

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2018

Grendel said:
You do realise labours true political ideology is anti Eu and the Tories is to remain?

You're not seriously suggesting that May and her cronies are going to run the next general election campaign on a remain platform?

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

torchomatic said:
I'm disagreeing with your black and white view of it. I'm sure if I said only racists and xenophobes voted to leave then I'd be vilified for making sweeping statements.

What black and white?

It was you that said old and poor didn't vote leave because you voted remain

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

martcov said:
completely. Merkel has been left alone with the problem of people fleeing a warzone. Or, as Breitbart would say, muslim economic immigrants and terrorists.

Merkel left alone? What about Italy and Greece? But the problem would be the Nazis in Germany that you say are not a problem if Germany took in lots again.

Astute · Jun 26, 2018

chiefdave said:
You're not seriously suggesting that May and her cronies are going to run the next general election campaign on a remain platform?

Politics in the UK is nothing but bullshit.

May wants to remain but is leading us out. Cornyn wants out but is moaning about us leaving.

They don't want what is best for us. They want what is best for themselves. Point scoring is the most important thing to them.

fernandopartridge · Jun 26, 2018

Astute said:
Politics in the UK is nothing but bullshit.

May wants to remain but is leading us out. Cornyn wants out but is moaning about us leaving.

They don't want what is best for us. They want what is best for themselves. Point scoring is the most important thing to them.

Where has Corbyn moaned about us leaving? He's only said Labour whatever deal we get or don't get from Brexit will need to meet tests. Never suggested another referendum or a pointless people's vote

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (14 Viewers)

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