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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

  • Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
  • Start date Jun 8, 2016
Forums New posts

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
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Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,351
Grendel said:
The notion that any political party would remove any if the workers rights legislation is ludicrous particularly as all those parties that believe in equality of wealth distribution and worker empowerment want to leave the EU
Click to expand...
But it is mud to throw at those who can see a few good things that might come from leaving the EU.

As usual we don't agree on the subject. I would prefer us to stay in the EU. But you talk more sense than most who want to stay in.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,352
Astute said:
I would prefer us to stay in the EU.
Click to expand...

You are more confusing than my girlfriend and she's half mad!
 
Reactions: Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,353
Sick Boy said:
You are more confusing than my girlfriend and she's half mad!
Click to expand...
Why is that?

As I have said before plenty of times I have relatives living in France. My retirement plans are to tour Europe when not at games. I plan to retire in less than 10 years when my 8 and 9 year olds are 18 and 19. I travel frequently to the EU. I'm even going again straight after we win at Wembley.

But there are possible good points about leaving. Just like there are possible good points about staying in.

The problem is that we won't know what is good or bad until the deal is done. And we won't know what is good or bad until reality hits home.

But what we do have on here is guesses which are made out to be certainties. There are no certainties. I am not even sure 100% that we will leave.

What is confusing about that?

All I try to do is put a balanced debate together. But some don't want a debate. All they want is their version and nothing else.
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,354
I'm just going to interject here to say bravo to Donald Tusk for saying how it is when dealing with Trumps USA .
Carry on lads.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,355
Astute said:
It has been enough on here many times before. Why would you mention the party of someones choice? It makes no difference if it is someone arguing the point on remaining.

Tony voted UKIP. But you never bring that up.
Click to expand...

Grendel implied that UKIP is racist and branded Tony with it as he voted UKIP. Once.

The party being anti EU and your UKIP hero claiming that Brexit is good. That’s the connection. Race doesn’t come into in this case.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,356
martcov said:
Grendel implied that UKIP is racist and branded Tony with it as he voted UKIP. Once.

The party being anti EU and your UKIP hero claiming that Brexit is good. That’s the connection. Race doesn’t come into in this case.
Click to expand...
My UKIP hero?

Bit of a silly comment.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,357
Astute said:
No. You are doing the normal and trying to make everything sound as bad as you can without any evidence for what you ate saying.
Click to expand...

He just posted evidence. Why are we not adapting human rights guarantees from the EU? Anyone who has no power should be fighting for guarantees to stay anchored in law. Nothing to do with pro or anti EU.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,358
Astute said:
My UKIP hero?

Bit of a silly comment.
Click to expand...

You just built him up as infallible and he did want to lead UKIP.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,359
Astute said:
So workers rights are not already secure and you are not making up things again?
Click to expand...

Workers‘ right are not secure.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,360
Astute said:
Why is that?

As I have said before plenty of times I have relatives living in France. My retirement plans are to tour Europe when not at games. I plan to retire in less than 10 years when my 8 and 9 year olds are 18 and 19. I travel frequently to the EU. I'm even going again straight after we win at Wembley.

But there are possible good points about leaving. Just like there are possible good points about staying in.

The problem is that we won't know what is good or bad until the deal is done. And we won't know what is good or bad until reality hits home.

But what we do have on here is guesses which are made out to be certainties. There are no certainties. I am not even sure 100% that we will leave.

What is confusing about that?

All I try to do is put a balanced debate together. But some don't want a debate. All they want is their version and nothing else.
Click to expand...

It’s not balanced.I just pointed out that we as mere citizens should agree that workers‘/ citizens‘ rights should remain protected by law in or out of the EU. You don’t seem bothered that the Tories want the Charter scrapped by Brexit. Is it because the EU passed the Charter?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,361
martcov said:
He just posted evidence. Why are we not adapting human rights guarantees from the EU? Anyone who has no power should be fighting for guarantees to stay anchored in law. Nothing to do with pro or anti EU.
Click to expand...

It’s also worth pointing out that a lot if not most U.K. law on things like workers rights is there to prop up EU law. If we’re not going to adopt the European human rights charter surely it’s common sense to question what’s going to happen to current laws in this area once we leave. Indeed it could prove dangerous not to. We’ve already seen our government try to ignore the rights of parliamentary sovereignty what makes people confident that they won’t try to erode our individual rights?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,362
Grendel said:
The notion that any political party would remove any if the workers rights legislation is ludicrous particularly as all those parties that believe in equality of wealth distribution and worker empowerment want to leave the EU
Click to expand...

Haha. The whole leave argument from the hedge fund owners like Mogg and Eton elites like BoJo is to do away with pesky regulations. Where do think they will start, animal welfare, environment, tax or workers‘ rights? Not adapting the European Charter is a good start to potentially attack workers‘ rights. Why not adopt it, unless of course the Tory government has plans to water it down?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,363
skybluetony176 said:
It’s also worth pointing out that a lot if not most U.K. law on things like workers rights is there to prop up EU law. If we’re not going to adopt the European human rights charter surely it’s common sense to question what’s going to happen to current laws in this area once we leave. Indeed it could prove dangerous not to. We’ve already seen our government try to ignore the rights of parliamentary sovereignty what makes people confident that they won’t try to erode our individual rights?
Click to expand...

Astute keeps pointing out people who are wealthy and stand to gain a lot by leaving. I am more worried about the vast majority who have no financial or political clout being betrayed by populists. Has happened before in history.
 
Reactions: skybluetony176

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,364
martcov said:
He just posted evidence. Why are we not adapting human rights guarantees from the EU? Anyone who has no power should be fighting for guarantees to stay anchored in law. Nothing to do with pro or anti EU.
Click to expand...
Twisted words there yet again.

The wording is why don't we keep the EU charter. Answer is because we won't be in the EU. We will be able to make our own laws and regulations. And where is tge evidence that anything will be downgraded?

There isn't any. But people looking for something will tell you differently.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,365
martcov said:
You just built him up as infallible and he did want to lead UKIP.
Click to expand...
Infallible?

The richest person in the UK is self made. He knows how business works. And he sees a giid future out of the EU. So those who look for something find something. Nothing unusual here.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,366
martcov said:
Workers‘ right are not secure.
Click to expand...
In what way?

So what has been said? Nothing. But there is a point to be made.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,367
martcov said:
Haha. The whole leave argument from the hedge fund owners like Mogg and Eton elites like BoJo is to do away with pesky regulations. Where do think they will start, animal welfare, environment, tax or workers‘ rights? Not adapting the European Charter is a good start to potentially attack workers‘ rights. Why not adopt it, unless of course the Tory government has plans to water it down?
Click to expand...

Why do all socialists parties want to leave the European Union?

Explain.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,368
martcov said:
It’s not balanced.I just pointed out that we as mere citizens should agree that workers‘/ citizens‘ rights should remain protected by law in or out of the EU. You don’t seem bothered that the Tories want the Charter scrapped by Brexit. Is it because the EU passed the Charter?
Click to expand...
Scrapped?

Same question but using different words.

If we are not in the EU we will have UK laws and regulations. If the Tories tried to scrap wirkers rights Labour would get straight in. Even if Corbyn was still leader. And they know it.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,369
martcov said:
Astute keeps pointing out people who are wealthy and stand to gain a lot by leaving. I am more worried about the vast majority who have no financial or political clout being betrayed by populists. Has happened before in history.
Click to expand...
Do I?

That is what you and others are saying. And then you say you don't twist things
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,370
skybluetony176 said:
It’s also worth pointing out that a lot if not most U.K. law on things like workers rights is there to prop up EU law. If we’re not going to adopt the European human rights charter surely it’s common sense to question what’s going to happen to current laws in this area once we leave. Indeed it could prove dangerous not to. We’ve already seen our government try to ignore the rights of parliamentary sovereignty what makes people confident that they won’t try to erode our individual rights?
Click to expand...
To question yes. But not to make out that you know. Because nobody knows anything.

Unless you are one of those that makes out we will crash and burn as soon as we leave. Then you know everything.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,371
Astute said:
Twisted words there yet again.

The wording is why don't we keep the EU charter. Answer is because we won't be in the EU. We will be able to make our own laws and regulations. And where is tge evidence that anything will be downgraded?

There isn't any. But people looking for something will tell you differently.
Click to expand...

Adopting EU law into U.K. law is part of the withdrawal bill so no, the answer isn’t because we won’t be in the EU. If you’d read the article that Mart linked (which you clearly didn’t) it tells you that. It also tells you that the government chose to exclude the charter and labour tried to reinstate it. So the question now comes back on you. Where is the evidence that anything won’t be downgraded? You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.
 
Last edited: May 16, 2018

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,372
Astute said:
To question yes. But not to make out that you know. Because nobody knows anything.

Unless you are one of those that makes out we will crash and burn as soon as we leave. Then you know everything.
Click to expand...

I haven’t made out I know. In fact I specifically said I wouldn’t pass judgment on whatever replaces it until I know what it is on the previous page (time of 3.22pm) of this thread. You actually acknowledged that in reply, although you now seem to have forgotten I said it in the first place.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,373
skybluetony176 said:
Adopting EU law into U.K. law is part of the withdrawal bill so no, the answer isn’t because we won’t be in the EU. If you’d read the article that Mart linked (which you clearly didn’t) it tells you that. It also tells you that the government chose excluded the charter and labour tried to reinstate it. So the question now comes back on you. Where is the evidence that anything won’t be downgraded. You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.
Click to expand...
Not at all. I look at everything with an open mind.

Labour always try to stop the Tories. The Tories always try to stop Labour. We have a Tory leader who wants to stay in the EU taking us out. We have a Labour leader who wants out of the EU trying to make it hard for the Tories to take us out.

Politics has become an absolute joke.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,374
Astute said:
Not at all. I look at everything with an open mind.

Labour always try to stop the Tories. The Tories always try to stop Labour. We have a Tory leader who wants to stay in the EU taking us out. We have a Labour leader who wants out of the EU trying to make it hard for the Tories to take us out.

Politics has become an absolute joke.
Click to expand...

Which has nothing to do with the statement you made that I was replying to. You said “Answer is because we won't be in the EU” that statement is fundamentally wrong. That’s the point I was making. If you think that the Labour Party trying to ensure that our rights are being maintained is doing it just to make things hard for the Tories I repeat what I said to you earlier. You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.
 
Reactions: martcov

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,375
skybluetony176 said:
Which has nothing to do with the statement you made that I was replying to. You said “Answer is because we won't be in the EU” that statement is fundamentally wrong. That’s the point I was making. If you think that the Labour Party trying to ensure that our rights are being maintained is doing it just to make things hard for the Tories I repeat what I said to you earlier. You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.
Click to expand...
You did well to put my comment to this.

An EU charter is just that. We need our own version. Not something set up for nearly 30 countries of all types. And yes I don't trust politicians.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,376
Grendel said:
Why do all socialists parties want to leave the European Union?

Explain.
Click to expand...

Don’t know, but ours doesn’t ( SPD). Schultz wants to strengthen the EU Parliament and he is possibly the lead candidate in the European elections next year for the SPD.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,377
Astute said:
Scrapped?

Same question but using different words.

If we are not in the EU we will have UK laws and regulations. If the Tories tried to scrap wirkers rights Labour would get straight in. Even if Corbyn was still leader. And they know it.
Click to expand...

Why scrap something just for the sake of it. We will absorb loads of EU laws and trading regulations. Why reject the Charter?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,378
Astute said:
Not at all. I look at everything with an open mind.

Labour always try to stop the Tories. The Tories always try to stop Labour. We have a Tory leader who wants to stay in the EU taking us out. We have a Labour leader who wants out of the EU trying to make it hard for the Tories to take us out.

Politics has become an absolute joke.
Click to expand...

I agree that the referendum has created a joke situation.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,379
Astute said:
You did well to put my comment to this.

An EU charter is just that. We need our own version. Not something set up for nearly 30 countries of all types. And yes I don't trust politicians.
Click to expand...

Why? Why not keep the EU Charter and if we want more protections, just add to it. If you reject something that was good enough for 28 countries, then you have to start the whole process and debate again with no guarantee of obtaining what we already have.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,380
skybluetony176 said:
Which has nothing to do with the statement you made that I was replying to. You said “Answer is because we won't be in the EU” that statement is fundamentally wrong. That’s the point I was making. If you think that the Labour Party trying to ensure that our rights are being maintained is doing it just to make things hard for the Tories I repeat what I said to you earlier. You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is the same as the leavers who want to drop out of the Eurovision because they believe the EU loathes us and EU countries will never vote for our song. The EU Charter would be ok if we rubbed out EU and called it „The Great British Charter of Fundamental Rights“. Then they would say we have regained control and passed our sovereign law.
 
Reactions: skybluetony176

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,381
martcov said:
Why scrap something just for the sake of it. We will absorb loads of EU laws and trading regulations. Why reject the Charter?
Click to expand...
What would be best. Something set up for nearly 30 countries or something set up specifically for us?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,382
Astute said:
To question yes. But not to make out that you know. Because nobody knows anything.

Unless you are one of those that makes out we will crash and burn as soon as we leave. Then you know everything.
Click to expand...

We can be worse off without crashing and burning, and we could be same as before, but as long as we are not significantly better off after all this division and uncertainty, then the whole exercise has been a waste of time and has damaged and divided the country for years to come unnecessarily.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,383
martcov said:
I agree that the referendum has created a joke situation.
Click to expand...
Correct. Some people can't handle not getting the result they expect or wanted.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,384
Astute said:
What would be best. Something set up for nearly 30 countries or something set up specifically for us?
Click to expand...

Something debated, researched and passed by 28 countries obviously. Far more ideas and input. If we want, we could always add to it. I don’t trust people who want to reject existing rights.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 16, 2018
  • #14,385
martcov said:
Why? Why not keep the EU Charter and if we want more protections, just add to it. If you reject something that was good enough for 28 countries, then you have to start the whole process and debate again with no guarantee of obtaining what we already have.
Click to expand...
I want a UK charter. Something to take us forward after leaving.

No cherry picking.
 
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