The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (10 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · May 14, 2018

Astute said:
So you admit that there are no EU rules to stop him but he wants out of the EU so their rules can't stop him?

Just like when I brought up someone who has got every forecast right for our economy when all the experts have been wrong. He sees us as doing well after Brexit. The reply to that was he isn't right this time :smuggrin:

He has made 30 billion taking struggling companies and getting them right. He started with nothing. He hasn't made a penny at fracking. But of course there are reasons.........

He has made £30B by being a tax exile and moving his company to Switzerland to avoid a reported £450M in corporation tax. He’s been linked to the paradise papers which is about mechanisms for hiding money so you don’t have to pay any tax on it. He’s the man who said to his employees at Grangemouth if you don’t except the terms and conditions I’m offering I’ll shut the plant while all along avoiding paying taxes on the plant because he moved his offices to Switzerland. He despises the constraints on fracking under EU law which is why he wants brexit so he can make a penny at the expense of the environment. He’s a real people’s champion isn’t he? Hardly.

Astute · May 14, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
He has made £30B by being a tax exile and moving his company to Switzerland to avoid a reported £450M in corporation tax. He’s been linked to the paradise papers which is about mechanisms for hiding money so you don’t have to pay any tax on it. He’s the man who said to his employees at Grangemouth if you don’t except the terms and conditions I’m offering I’ll shut the plant while all along avoiding paying taxes on the plant because he moved his offices to Switzerland. He despises the constraints on fracking under EU law which is why he wants brexit so he can make a penny at the expense of the environment. He’s a real people’s champion isn’t he? Hardly.

What constraints under EU law? You have just said there was nothing in EU law to stop him.

You sound very militant.

Are you on the side of the French train drivers that are trying to cripple the country?

skybluetony176 · May 14, 2018

Astute said:
What constraints under EU law? You have just said there was nothing in EU law to stop him.

You sound very militant.

Are you on the side of the French train drivers that are trying to cripple the country?

I’ve pointed out that I’ve already linked it and you haven’t read it so thanks for confirming again that you haven’t read it. Here’s a different article on the point How Brexit could make it easier to frack in the UK

Because I know that you won’t bother reading it I’ve copied and pasted a specific quote from it. You’ll probably ignore it though “Regulations on water use and contamination, the safe use of chemicals, air pollution, noise, climate change, biodiversity and environmental liability are among the numerous EU-wide agreements enforced by UK regulators“.

As for the nonsense about French train drivers congratulations you’ve finally surpassed Grendull in the talking bollocks stakes.

Astute · May 14, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I’ve pointed out that I’ve already linked it and you haven’t read it so thanks for confirming again that you haven’t read it. Here’s a different article on the point How Brexit could make it easier to frack in the UK

Because I know that you won’t bother reading it I’ve copied and pasted a specific quote from it. You’ll probably ignore it though “Regulations on water use and contamination, the safe use of chemicals, air pollution, noise, climate change, biodiversity and environmental liability are among the numerous EU-wide agreements enforced by UK regulators“.

As for the nonsense about French train drivers congratulations you’ve finally surpassed Grendull in the talking bollocks stakes.

But have you read it?

Could be

Suggests

Sounds about right for you. 'Could be' and 'suggests' mean definitely. Because you are trying to make a case against someone who knows how business works and is one of the best at it. And he doesn't have the Armageddon thoughts you want everyone to believe in.

And you will have trawled through pages on a Google search looking for the best one for your situation.

But funniest of all on the link you supplied was Nick Grealy who wanted to stay in the EU. He was a fracker

Or doesn't it count as he died a few months ago

Tributes paid to shale gas commentator, Nick Grealy, who died yesterday

martcov · May 14, 2018

Astute said:
But have you read it?

Could be

Suggests

Sounds about right for you. 'Could be' and 'suggests' mean definitely. Because you are trying to make a case against someone who knows how business works and is one of the best at it. And he doesn't have the Armageddon thoughts you want everyone to believe in.

And you will have trawled through pages on a Google search looking for the best one for your situation.

But funniest of all on the link you supplied was Nick Grealy who wanted to stay in the EU. He was a fracker

Or doesn't it count as he died a few months ago

Tributes paid to shale gas commentator, Nick Grealy, who died yesterday

Having the richest man in Britain as role model is strange for a leaver. Before it was all about decent ordinary folk against the wealthy elite. Now that it appears to be hitting the rocks, it is „well rich people say it is good, so it mus be good for decent ordinary folk“..

Astute · May 14, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
As for the nonsense about French train drivers congratulations you’ve finally surpassed Grendull in the talking bollocks stakes.

Of course.

Grangemouth was losing serious money. He took over the business that included Grangemouth. He offered to put hundreds of millions of pounds in to save the plant and save jobs. But he also needed help from the workforce to make changes. When the workers refused was he just supposed to keep a loss making business going to keep the workers happy? In the end they agreed with the union to make sime changes. Now their jobs are secure.

Just like what is going on with the French train drivers right now.

French train services severely disrupted as unions step up strike action

Astute · May 14, 2018

martcov said:
Having the richest man in Britain as role model is strange for a leaver. Before it was all about decent ordinary folk against the wealthy elite. Now that it appears to be hitting the rocks, it is „well rich people say it is good, so it mus be good for decent ordinary folk“..

More like I have more trust in someone who runs very profitable multinational companies that we can do very well after leaving the EU than someone who lives in Germany that doesn't run multinational companies that says rhe opposite.

martcov · May 15, 2018

Astute said:
More like I have more trust in someone who runs very profitable multinational companies that we can do very well after leaving the EU than someone who lives in Germany that doesn't run multinational companies that says rhe opposite.

The interests of multinational companies are not necessarily the same as those of „decent ordinary folk“. He obviously knows about making huge sums of money. Fair play to him.

Deregulation, less workers‘ rights, tax havens, less trade union power and in particular less environmental rules are better for his business.

I see his point, but as I am one of the 99%, I tend to look at it from our point of view.

We can, in that sense, both be right. Brexit could be great for his business and similar businesses, whilst at the same time bad for me and other poorer people who don’t have the acumen for big business. Small businesses already have it hard against multinationals and cannot run Swiss holding companies or employ top accountants.

So, I will stick to saying Brexit is bad from our point of view, whilst you fawn over one of the few that will benefit from Brexit by being very rich and a multinational operator.

Astute · May 15, 2018

martcov said:
The interests of multinational companies are not necessarily the same as those of „decent ordinary folk“. He obviously knows about making huge sums of money. Fair play to him.

Deregulation, less workers‘ rights, tax havens, less trade union power and in particular less environmental rules are better for his business.

I see his point, but as I am one of the 99%, I tend to look at it from our point of view.

We can, in that sense, both be right. Brexit could be great for his business and similar businesses, whilst at the same time bad for me and other poorer people who don’t have the acumen for big business. Small businesses already have it hard against multinationals and cannot run Swiss holding companies or employ top accountants.

So, I will stick to saying Brexit is bad from our point of view, whilst you fawn over one of the few that will benefit from Brexit by being very rich and a multinational operator.

So where is the evidence of deregulation of workers rights after Brexit?

Yes there is none. But it seems your aim to try and discredit anyone who says they predict we will do well after Brexit. You even tried to discredit a financial professor who had always predicted all upturns and downturns for over 30 years....even when the ones you like to quote got it wrong each time.

skybluetony176 · May 15, 2018

Astute said:
Of course.

Grangemouth was losing serious money. He took over the business that included Grangemouth. He offered to put hundreds of millions of pounds in to save the plant and save jobs. But he also needed help from the workforce to make changes. When the workers refused was he just supposed to keep a loss making business going to keep the workers happy? In the end they agreed with the union to make sime changes. Now their jobs are secure.

Just like what is going on with the French train drivers right now.

French train services severely disrupted as unions step up strike action

Was it losing money or was it clever accounting to paint that picture? I know you won’t read but here’s an interesting article on it Grangemouth bailout: Did Ineos screw the taxpayer of £134million?

Astute · May 15, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Was it losing money or was it clever accounting to paint that picture? I know you won’t read but here’s an interesting article on it Grangemouth bailout: Did Ineos screw the taxpayer of £134million?

Looks like?

Looks like they never paid loans back to the parent company. That meant they made a small profit.

I could be wrong. You don't know what is going on. And neither does the bloke you quoted. He thinks this and thinks that. He didn't get to see the books. But he is very knowledgeable on the subject.

And he is extremely pro EU

I have only one instinct on the EU, and it is that we must stay

skybluetony176 · May 15, 2018

Astute said:
I could be wrong. You don't know what is going on. And neither does the bloke you quoted. He thinks this and thinks that. He didn't get to see the books. But he is very knowledgeable on the subject.

He’s an accountant using published accounts. He does know what he’s going on about.

Astute · May 15, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
He’s an accountant using published accounts. He does know what he’s going on about.

Published accounts don't show everything.

He doesn't say he knows. But like I said he does know what he is talking about. But where I work investment is taken from profits. If more investment is made than profit is made on paper it is a loss. So it depends what angle you take it from.

How about his reasons for staying in the EU?

martcov · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
So where is the evidence of deregulation of workers rights after Brexit?

Yes there is none. But it seems your aim to try and discredit anyone who says they predict we will do well after Brexit. You even tried to discredit a financial professor who had always predicted all upturns and downturns for over 30 years....even when the ones you like to quote got it wrong each time.

Was the financial guy the one who stood for UKIP leadership?

martcov · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
So where is the evidence of deregulation of workers rights after Brexit?

I don’t see why we are not keeping the charter of rights if we are not intending watering down workers‘ rights. At least „The enemies of the people in ermin“ are trying to keep the Charter of Fundamental Rights on the statutes.

Tory government votes not to keep European human rights charter in UK law after Brexit

Astute · May 16, 2018

martcov said:
I don’t see why we are not keeping the charter of rights if we are not intending watering down workers‘ rights. At least „The enemies of the people in ermin“ are trying to keep the Charter of Fundamental Rights on the statutes.

Tory government votes not to keep European human rights charter in UK law after Brexit

Are you trying to say that we will lose the freedom of speech, gay people will lose all rights and whatever else it says?

Yet again I do not trust politicians from any party. But there are things that will not be forgiven. And taking rights away from the British public is a major one.

You need to understand that out means out. And it doesn't matter if you like it or not. It isn't all about Mart of Germany. It is the UK as a whole. The old news you have brought up isn't law here. It is an EU thing. Why would we keep EU regulations when we won't be in the EU? We are one of the best for freedom of speech. Gay people have a better life here than in many countries of the EU. So is it really because of the EU?

Astute · May 16, 2018

martcov said:
Was the financial guy the one who stood for UKIP leadership?

Is this a racist dig?

He says we will do better outside the EU. He has got our economy right for over 30 years. The so called experts have got it wrong several times during this time. He felt so strongly about getting out of the EU that he used them so his voice could be heard. A few of you looked at mud to throw but couldn't find anything to stick.

UKIP was about getting out of the EU. Look at how many people voted for them since we voted out of the EU. They now have no use as a political party. But you try and make out that you can use them as a point scorer.

martcov · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
Are you trying to say that we will lose the freedom of speech, gay people will lose all rights and whatever else it says?

Yet again I do not trust politicians from any party. But there are things that will not be forgiven. And taking rights away from the British public is a major one.

You need to understand that out means out. And it doesn't matter if you like it or not. It isn't all about Mart of Germany. It is the UK as a whole. The old news you have brought up isn't law here. It is an EU thing. Why would we keep EU regulations when we won't be in the EU? We are one of the best for freedom of speech. Gay people have a better life here than in many countries of the EU. So is it really because of the EU?

A charter of fundamental rights is not the same as some EU regulations e.g. for the curvature of bananas. The Lords want us to keep it. It would be a safeguard should people try to remove or change rights in the Charter. I can’t think why we should not keep the positive things of the EU. Just spite or because it has „European“ in the title?

martcov · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
Is this a racist dig?

He says we will do better outside the EU. He has got our economy right for over 30 years. The so called experts have got it wrong several times during this time. He felt so strongly about getting out of the EU that he used them so his voice could be heard. A few of you looked at mud to throw but couldn't find anything to stick.

UKIP was about getting out of the EU. Look at how many people voted for them since we voted out of the EU. They now have no use as a political party. But you try and make out that you can use them as a point scorer.

How can it be racist to mention someone’s political affiliation?

skybluetony176 · May 16, 2018

martcov said:
A charter of fundamental rights is not the same as some EU regulations e.g. for the curvature of bananas. The Lords want us to keep it. It would be a safeguard should people try to remove or change rights in the Charter. I can’t think why we should not keep the positive things of the EU. Just spite or because it has „European“ in the title?

It also includes things like workers rights. Mmmm. Now which apparent champion of the people doesn’t like to negotiate with unions threatening to close workplaces down instead?

skybluetony176 · May 16, 2018

martcov said:
How can it be racist to mention someone’s political affiliation?

Astute should know the answer to this having repeatedly labelled someone a racist in various forms including a fucking racist for voting UKIP on this very thread not so long ago.

Astute · May 16, 2018

martcov said:
How can it be racist to mention someone’s political affiliation?

It has been enough on here many times before. Why would you mention the party of someones choice? It makes no difference if it is someone arguing the point on remaining.

Tony voted UKIP. But you never bring that up.

Astute · May 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Astute should know the answer to this having repeatedly labelled someone a racist in various forms including a fucking racist for voting UKIP on this very thread not so long ago.

Yes you. To make a point.

Having anything to do with UKIP is constantly used against anyone who sees any good at all in leaving the EU. There has been constant accusations of racism with anyone who votes UKIP.

But someone like yourself who voted UKIP....who then cries their eyes out when the purpose of UKIP occurred......makes up all sorts of stories in defence of the EU it means nothing.

Astute · May 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
It also includes things like workers rights. Mmmm. Now which apparent champion of the people doesn’t like to negotiate with unions threatening to close workplaces down instead?

So workers rights are not already secure and you are not making up things again?

skybluetony176 · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
So workers rights are not already secure and you are not making up things again?

They’re secure under the European human rights charter at this moment in time. When we leave the EU we’re not adopting this so we don’t know what protection for workers rights will be when we leave. Sorry if that’s too complicated for you to understand. Has there even been a draft bill yet on what will replace it? What am I supposed to be making up exactly? When you’ve used the word already in your reply you mean currently. If we’re not adopting aspects of EU law we currently govern to it will be replaced. What will it be replaced with exactly?

skybluetony176 · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
Yes you. To make a point.

Having anything to do with UKIP is constantly used against anyone who sees any good at all in leaving the EU. There has been constant accusations of racism with anyone who votes UKIP.

But someone like yourself who voted UKIP....who then cries their eyes out when the purpose of UKIP occurred......makes up all sorts of stories in defence of the EU it means nothing.

You repeatedly over a number of pages called me a racist before then attempting to play the victim. I’m not sure what point you thought you were making but if it was to prove that you’re an asshole congratulations, you achieved it.

I explained several times how I used my vote as a protest vote in the European elections after Cameron announced the referendum and before his negotiations with the EU. You’ve repeatedly chosen to ignore that and make out I voted UKIP for other reasons. Again I don’t know what point you think you’re making but again if it’s to prove you’re an asshole congratulations, you achieved it.

What stories have I made up exactly?

Astute · May 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
They’re secure under the European human rights charter at this moment in time. When we leave the EU we’re not adopting this so we don’t know what protection for workers rights will be when we leave. Sorry if that’s too complicated for you to understand. Has there even been a draft bill yet on what will replace it? What am I supposed to be making up exactly? When you’ve used the word already in your reply you mean currently. If we’re not adopting aspects of EU law we currently govern to it will be replaced. What will it be replaced with exactly?

No. You are doing the normal and trying to make everything sound as bad as you can without any evidence for what you ate saying.

Astute · May 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
You repeatedly over a number of pages called me a racist before then attempting to play the victim. I’m not sure what point you thought you were making but if it was to prove that you’re an asshole congratulations, you achieved it.

I explained several times how I used my vote as a protest vote in the European elections after Cameron announced the referendum and before his negotiations with the EU. You’ve repeatedly chosen to ignore that and make out I voted UKIP for other reasons. Again I don’t know what point you think you’re making but again if it’s to prove you’re an asshole congratulations, you achieved it.

What stories have I made up exactly?

So myself and others never got accused of racism because I can see some good about leaving the EU?

When someone says something publicly about the good on leaving the EU straight away on here there is a search to see if they have anything to do with UKIP.

But like I keep saying if you are a remain at any costs you could vote whichever way you want. It makes no difference. Even you made comments about UKIP until Grendel brought up posts from the past where you bragged about voting UKIP.

skybluetony176 · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
No. You are doing the normal and trying to make everything sound as bad as you can without any evidence for what you ate saying.

Where have I made it sound bad? Workers rights are currently protected under EU law, we’re not adopting that law and we don’t know what’s replacing it. That’s all I’ve pointed out and that’s the reality of it. If you want to put your head in the sand by pretending I’ve made the reality of the situation sound bad knock yourself out. Another reality is that I haven’t really passed judgment on it either way, good or bad. I’ll reserve judgment on that until we know what is replacing it.

skybluetony176 · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
So myself and others never got accused of racism because I can see some good about leaving the EU?

When someone says something publicly about the good on leaving the EU straight away on here there is a search to see if they have anything to do with UKIP.

But like I keep saying if you are a remain at any costs you could vote whichever way you want. It makes no difference. Even you made comments about UKIP until Grendel brought up posts from the past where you bragged about voting UKIP.

You labelled me a racist, repeatedly. What comments did I make on UKIP exactly? If you read the thread that Grendull linked on UKIP you and me said basically the same thing. It’s only on this thread that you apparently changed your mind in your haste to be Grendulls lapdog and decided UKIP voters are racist.

Astute · May 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Where have I made it sound bad? Workers rights are currently protected under EU law, we’re not adopting that law and we don’t know what’s replacing it. That’s all I’ve pointed out and that’s the reality of it. If you want to put your head in the sand by pretending I’ve made the reality of the situation sound bad knock yourself out. Another reality is that I haven’t really passed judgment on it either way, good or bad. I’ll reserve judgment on that until we know what is replacing it.

If you are not passing judgement why do you only mention what could go wrong and then talk as though it will?

So we don't have workers rights here? And any party that tried to remove them would be finished. Just like the Lib Dems were when they got into bed with the Tories.

Astute · May 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
You labelled me a racist, repeatedly. What comments did I make on UKIP exactly? If you read the thread that Grendull linked on UKIP you and me said basically the same thing. It’s only on this thread that you apparently changed your mind in your haste to be Grendulls lapdog and decided UKIP voters are racist.

Because on here some remainers make out that anyone with anything to do with UKIP are racist. I ended up showing black people that supported UKIP. That was still not enough. Then Grendel brought up where you voted for UKIP. Suddenly it stopped. I wonder why.

skybluetony176 · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
If you are not passing judgement why do you only mention what could go wrong and then talk as though it will?

So we don't have workers rights here? And any party that tried to remove them would be finished. Just like the Lib Dems were when they got into bed with the Tories.

Jesus Christ. We have workers rights now as EU members. We’re not adopting the EU human rights charter when we leave. That covers workers rights. We don’t know what will be replacing this. How are you finding that so difficult to understand? You keep asking me if we have workers rights now. I’ve told you now three times that we do. It doesn’t matter how many times you ask me the answer is always going to be yes. You’re not going to trick me into somehow saying no.

skybluetony176 · May 16, 2018

Astute said:
Because on here some remainers make out that anyone with anything to do with UKIP are racist.

Including you.

Grendel · May 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Jesus Christ. We have workers rights now as EU members. We’re not adopting the EU human rights charter when we leave. That covers workers rights. We don’t know what will be replacing this. How are you finding that so difficult to understand? You keep asking me if we have workers rights now. I’ve told you now three times that we do. It doesn’t matter how many times you ask me the answer is always going to be yes. You’re not going to trick me into somehow saying no.

The notion that any political party would remove any if the workers rights legislation is ludicrous particularly as all those parties that believe in equality of wealth distribution and worker empowerment want to leave the EU

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (10 Viewers)

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