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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (5 Viewers)

  • Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
  • Start date Jun 8, 2016
Forums New posts

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
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jimmyhillsfanclub

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 3, 2018
  • #11,691
Whilst I have absolutely no faith, confidence or trust in this shitty government, I'd like to at least know what the +++'s are before I immediately dismiss it as definitely worse than the grubby trade deal the EU has already forced upon all of its citizens without so much as an excuse me.....
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 3, 2018
  • #11,692
martcov said:
Err no.... Canada plus plus plus was another Avenue we were sounding out.... Davis wants that..
Click to expand...

We've already got it as an EU member. How else do Deutsche Bahn et al run our railways?
 
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martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 3, 2018
  • #11,693
fernandopartridge said:
We've already got it as an EU member. How else do Deutsche Bahn et al run our railways?
Click to expand...

Got what?
 
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martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 3, 2018
  • #11,694
jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Whilst I have absolutely no faith, confidence or trust in this shitty government, I'd like to at least know what the +++'s are before I immediately dismiss it as definitely worse than the grubby trade deal the EU has already forced upon all of its citizens without so much as an excuse me.....
Click to expand...

Worse in what way? Nobody is Brexiting the EU to get more workers or consumer rights. Heard a lot of things on here and elsewhere, but not people’s rights. Brexit means less rights and protections through less red tape.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy
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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,695
skybluetony176 said:
Some interesting views on it expressed through wiki

Nobel Memorial Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman has said that "there isn't a compelling case for this deal, from either a global or a national point of view."[183]

In February 2016, United Nations' human rights expert Alfred de Zayasargued that the TPP was fundamentally flawed and was based on an outdated model of trade pacts, and that governments should not sign or ratify the TPP.[184][185] According to de Zayas, the international human rights regime imposes binding legal obligations on countries, including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rightsand the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and trade must be done under the human rights regime. Under the ISDS in the TPP, investors can sue a government, while a government cannot sue investors. De Zayas argued that this asymmetry made the system unfair. He added that international law, including accountability and transparency, must prevail over trade pacts.[184]

Trans-Pacific Partnership - Wikipedia
Click to expand...
I think the key word is 'exploring'. To be honest I would be more concerned if the powers that be were NOT exploring every possible opportunity that may benefit the nation

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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,696
SkyblueBazza said:
I think the key word is 'exploring'. To be honest I would be more concerned if the powers that be were NOT exploring every possible opportunity that may benefit the nation

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Click to expand...

Including remaining in the EU or Single Market/Customs Union?
 
Reactions: martcov and Sick Boy

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,697
SkyblueBazza said:
I think the key word is 'exploring'. To be honest I would be more concerned if the powers that be were NOT exploring every possible opportunity that may benefit the nation

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Click to expand...

I believe that whether in or out of the EU we will end up in these type of agreements. Big business will get it's way. Some politicians will be more likely to accommodate them than others and I'm sure they'll be looked after.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy, martcov and jimmyhillsfanclub

jimmyhillsfanclub

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,698
clint van damme said:
I believe that whether in or out of the EU we will end up in these type of agreements. Big business will get it's way. Some politicians will be more likely to accommodate them than others and I'm sure they'll be looked after.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I think your correct Clint......but, in theory at least, we get some sort of say in it when outside of the EU......whereas the ceta deal (and now defunct TTiP) was done behind closed doors and included the disgraceful ISDS legislation which was comprehensively rejected (97%) by public consultation across europe.....

...but guess what......the EU machine passed it anyway....
 
Last edited: Jan 4, 2018

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,699
It's nice to see something other than the usual right-wing rags finally posting a story about the 'migrant crisis'.

'Migrants fuel' German violent crime rise

Can we now have an honest discussion about this please?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,700
Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It's nice to see something other than the usual right-wing rags finally posting a story about the 'migrant crisis'.

'Migrants fuel' German violent crime rise

Can we now have an honest discussion about this please?
Click to expand...

Yes. As it says:

„It also said that migrants with little hope of being giving asylum in Germany were much more likely to commit violent crime than those from war zones like Syria whose asylum was guaranteed.

"Anyone who as a war refugee regards their chances of staying in Germany as good, will endeavour not to jeopardise those prospects by criminal offences," the authors of the study said, quoted by Die Welt newspaper.

Which is also what I said at the beginning. 17% of the violent crimes in that state are committed by „Nafris“ from North Africa who make up 1% of asylum seekers.

My Arab ( Egyptian ) mate told me that the worst are the Algerians, many who come via France and are just trying it on. Hamburg has problems with some young Maroccans. No idea how and why they are here.

Big difference between Nafris and we refugees.
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,701
skybluetony176 said:
Including remaining in the EU or Single Market/Customs Union?
Click to expand...
No because I live in a democracy where the people were given a choice - & told the powers that be what direction they wished to be steered. Now it's up to the powers that be to sort out the very best way for the nation to go in that direction. Unfortunately, it's a very complex thing to steer...but now we have got this far...better imo to continue in that general direction than to do any u-turn

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: Kingokings204
A

Ashdown

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,702
A good chunk of the problems on the Spanish South coast are caused by Algerians or Moroccans too. Same In the Canary Islands.
 
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martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,703
SkyblueBazza said:
No because I live in a democracy where the people were given a choice - & told the powers that be what direction they wished to be steered. Now it's up to the powers that be to sort out the very best way for the nation to go in that direction. Unfortunately, it's a very complex thing to steer...but now we have got this far...better imo to continue in that general direction than to do any u-turn

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

A choice of something we couldn’t know about. Now we are all wiser.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,704
SkyblueBazza said:
No because I live in a democracy where the people were given a choice - & told the powers that be what direction they wished to be steered. Now it's up to the powers that be to sort out the very best way for the nation to go in that direction. Unfortunately, it's a very complex thing to steer...but now we have got this far...better imo to continue in that general direction than to do any u-turn

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You can leave the EU and remain in the trading bloc on our doorstep known as the single market you know? Or is it more sensible to join a trading bloc on the other side of the world who we do less trade with than we do with Germany alone?
 
Reactions: martcov
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,705
skybluetony176 said:
You can leave the EU and remain in the trading bloc on our doorstep known as the single market you know? Or is it more sensible to join a trading bloc on the other side of the world who we do less trade with than we do with Germany alone?
Click to expand...
Sp your point is what in relation to my answer?

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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,706
martcov said:
A choice of something we couldn’t know about. Now we are all wiser.
Click to expand...
Yes but imo this is more akin to choosing to jump off a cliff than ham or cheese on your sandwich. Once you've jumped there is no going back

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martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,707
Hopefully there are some who think otherwise … I am not in a suicide pact with the Tories and Brexiteers
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,708
martcov said:
Hopefully there are some who think otherwise … I am not in a suicide pact with the Tories and Brexiteers
Click to expand...

No you live in Germany and feed off the rest of Europe to your own benefit.
 
Reactions: Ashdown
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,709
Grendel said:
No you live in Germany and feed off the rest of Europe to your own benefit.
Click to expand...

Yes, just ate a Currywurst- made in Germany. Now I will swig back a Corinthian Gin made on the Thames for my benefit...... enjoy your Brexit. I see you are exporting your Roy Moore, Donald Trump, AfD ( headed by the grand daughter of one Hitler’s ministers ), Austrian Freedom Party ( founded by Nazis in the 50s ), Steve Bannon endorser to the ROI to try to talk them into exiting with Brexit. That will go down well in the Republic. Irish people that I have known for years have told me that what they don’t like in some English people, is a smug arrogance. Let’s see how they take to Farage.
 
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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,710
martcov said:
Irish people that I have known for years have told me that what they don’t like in some English people, is a smug arrogance.
Click to expand...

They must hate you with a passion!

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M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,711
SkyblueBazza said:
They must hate you with a passion!

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Click to expand...

Actually no. Several have said that I don’t have the “arrogance”. Funny that. Pretending that we are getting our sovereignty back and that we are a proud nation because we have blue passports is smug arrogance and I definitely don’t belong to that club.
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,712
martcov said:
Actually no. Several have said that I don’t have the “arrogance”. Funny that. Pretending that we are getting our sovereignty back and that we are a proud nation because we have blue passports is smug arrogance and I definitely don’t belong to that club.
Click to expand...
No nor me

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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,713
SkyblueBazza said:
Sp your point is what in relation to my answer?

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Click to expand...

In relation to your original post explore EVERY possible opportunity.

In relation to your reply if you believe in democracy you believe in the right to change your mind. After all before we had the referendum to leave after we had a referendum to join. Unless of course you’re saying that we should ignore the referendum result as we’d already voted to join.

If we’re going to explore joining trading blocs it would be prudent to explore joining the one that serves us best? If we’re going to explore joining one on the other side of the world surely it makes sense to explore joining one on our doorstep? If you do in fact want the government to explore every option that is.
 
Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
Reactions: martcov

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,714
Ashdown said:
A good chunk of the problems on the Spanish South coast are caused by Algerians or Moroccans too. Same In the Canary Islands.
Click to expand...

What has that got to do with the EU?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,715
SkyblueBazza said:
Yes but imo this is more akin to choosing to jump off a cliff than ham or cheese on your sandwich. Once you've jumped there is no going back

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Click to expand...

How is there no going back? Isn’t that exactly what a hard brexit is? Going back to what you had before. That’s the opposite of no going back.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,716
SkyblueBazza said:
No because I live in a democracy where the people were given a choice - & told the powers that be what direction they wished to be steered. Now it's up to the powers that be to sort out the very best way for the nation to go in that direction. Unfortunately, it's a very complex thing to steer...but now we have got this far...better imo to continue in that general direction than to do any u-turn

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Even the Leavers' poster boy Farage was hailing Norway and Switzerland as models for the UK to follow.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 4, 2018
  • #11,717
Sick Boy said:
Even the Leavers' poster boy Farage was hailing Norway and Switzerland as models for the UK to follow.
Click to expand...

It would be great
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 5, 2018
  • #11,718
skybluetony176 said:
In relation to your original post explore EVERY possible opportunity.

In relation to your reply if you believe in democracy you believe in the right to change your mind. After all before we had the referendum to leave after we had a referendum to join. Unless of course you’re saying that we should ignore the referendum result as we’d already voted to join.

If we’re going to explore joining trading blocs it would be prudent to explore joining the one that serves us best? If we’re going to explore joining one on the other side of the world surely it makes sense to explore joining one on our doorstep? If you do in fact want the government to explore every option that is.
Click to expand...

1. The original referendum result was actioned.
2. The term we joined upon changed dramatically & went well beyond simple trade deals
3. Many of the voters that voted 'in' originally would form a significant number of the 'out' voters now...as suggested by the demographics of the votes
4. >40yrs is a pretty significant exploration already. We are now exploring how both parties can work best together in trading with less of the other 'conditions' & restrictions that perplex people

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S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 5, 2018
  • #11,719
skybluetony176 said:
How is there no going back? Isn’t that exactly what a hard brexit is? Going back to what you had before. That’s the opposite of no going back.
Click to expand...
Well you go jump off Beachy Head & then decide you want to stay atop it looking at the view...that might help lol

As far as the leave vote is concerned - I said IMO

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S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 5, 2018
  • #11,720
Sick Boy said:
Even the Leavers' poster boy Farage was hailing Norway and Switzerland as models for the UK to follow.
Click to expand...
And???

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Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Jan 5, 2018
  • #11,721
SkyblueBazza said:
And???

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Click to expand...

Ermmm...both are within the single market and goes to show that messages were more than a little mixed.
 
Reactions: bezzer and martcov

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 5, 2018
  • #11,722
SkyblueBazza said:
Well you go jump off Beachy Head & then decide you want to stay atop it looking at the view...that might help lol

As far as the leave vote is concerned - I said IMO

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If I wanted to jump of beachy head I would have voted leave based on the argument presented at the time.

I’ve only suggested what you did, explore every opportunity. Every opportunity includes leaving the EU but retaining membership of the single market. You seem to mean every opportunity but...
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 5, 2018
  • #11,723
SkyblueBazza said:
1. The original referendum result was actioned.
2. The term we joined upon changed dramatically & went well beyond simple trade deals
3. Many of the voters that voted 'in' originally would form a significant number of the 'out' voters now...as suggested by the demographics of the votes
4. >40yrs is a pretty significant exploration already. We are now exploring how both parties can work best together in trading with less of the other 'conditions' & restrictions that perplex people

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The terms changed were agreed by our elected government, that’s democracy. We always had the veto option which our democratically elected government didn’t use. That’s democracy. A lot happened in those forty years including living standards rising, expendable income rising etc. Things improved immeasurably in the U.K. as EU members. People seem to ignore that.
 
Reactions: martcov
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 5, 2018
  • #11,724
Sick Boy said:
Ermmm...both are within the single market and goes to show that messages were more than a little mixed.
Click to expand...
Ah...back over that old ground. Messages/lies from both camps might well have confused the issues for some. Thought we had all agreed that

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S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 5, 2018
  • #11,725
skybluetony176 said:
If I wanted to jump of beachy head I would have voted leave based on the argument presented at the time.

I’ve only suggested what you did, explore every opportunity. Every opportunity includes leaving the EU but retaining membership of the single market. You seem to mean every opportunity but...
Click to expand...
But what? We ARE exploring effective, mutually beneficial ways of trading with the EU already - that forms part of the exiting agreement doesn't it?

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