The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

chiefdave · Nov 28, 2017

So after all that pissing around we're going to pay what they asked for on day one? Nice waste of time that turned out to be.

Citizens rights shouldn't be too hard to settle, although I wouldn't underestimate Davis and May's ability to screw it up.

The problem will be the Irish border. Finding a solution that pleases all will not be easy.

Kingokings204 · Nov 28, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
The brexiteers should at least take responsibility for it. They knew what they voted for so surely non of this came as a surprise.

Another one as no surprise. How dare 17.4m people vote opposite to me. Was it stupid earlier this earlier someone said also?

Honestly, people on here don’t like democracy do they. Martgermany heads the queue of course.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 28, 2017

Marty said:
Why do the remainer's want us to fail so badly? I get that you may have wanted a different outcome, but as a country we voted to leave, and we'll all share the consequences, if they are good or bad. So lets just get on with it, with the best outcome for us as a nation.

Well, two remainers here have said how it's good that a deal has been made on what we owe. This also progresses the path toards leaving, of course.

Meanwhile, the person who assures us Brexit means Brexit, and that we all knew what Brexit meant is upset.

Ask who wants us to fail? The people who want constructive dialogue leading to a result, or the people who cite Farage, with his dubious grasp on truth and a tenuous relationship with the politics of fear, and who seemingly would prefer a tactic of shouting loudly at the EU, rather than actually holding a conversation...

Kingokings204 · Nov 28, 2017

Marty said:
Why do the remainer's want us to fail so badly? I get that you may have wanted a different outcome, but as a country we voted to leave, and we'll all share the consequences, if they are good or bad. So lets just get on with it, with the best outcome for us as a nation.

You stupid idiot. Be ashamed.

Kingokings204 · Nov 28, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Well, two remainers here have said how it's good that a deal has been made on what we owe. This also progresses the path toards leaving, of course.

Meanwhile, the person who assures us Brexit means Brexit, and that we all knew what Brexit meant is upset.

Ask who wants us to fail? The people who want constructive dialogue leading to a result, or the people who cite Farage, with his dubious grasp on truth and a tenuous relationship with the politics of fear, and who seemingly would prefer a tactic of shouting loudly at the EU, rather than actually holding a conversation...

Politics of fear was the remain side and possibly cost the vote. Be ashamed.

skybluetony176 · Nov 28, 2017

Marty said:
Why do the remainer's want us to fail so badly? I get that you may have wanted a different outcome, but as a country we voted to leave, and we'll all share the consequences, if they are good or bad. So lets just get on with it, with the best outcome for us as a nation.

It’s KOK who’s saying we’ve failed with the divorce bill. The remainers on here are saying it’s what we expected. That’s just realism on our (the remainers) behalf, it’s the brexiteers who are shouting failure when dealing with the reality of brexit.

Kingokings204 · Nov 28, 2017

martcov said:
Are you furious that Ireland is going to veto trade talks? Are you furious that citizens want to keep their rights?what are your solutions on citizenship and the Irish border - a border which is not allowed under the GFA?

You are the one who claims that everyone knew what they voted for? Really? What did Farage say about these things before the vote?

Your mate Nigel said clearly before the vote, Irish border carries on as normal. All EU citizens rights to be guaranteed.

All these things are easy solutions unless some people make it seem impossible of course. In truth it’s quite simple. Would you believe there was even a world before we joined the EU. Incredible isn’t it. Yes the fruit still got picked and airplanes still flew and the Irish had their two countries also. How did we ever cope?

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 28, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
It’s KOK who’s saying we’ve failed with the divorce bill. The remainers on here are saying it’s what we expected. That’s just realism on our (the remainers) behalf, it’s the brexiteers who are shouting failure when dealing with the reality of brexit.

I find it remarkable when (charitably) naivity is exposed, somehow it's somebody else's fault!

Kingokings204 · Nov 28, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
It’s KOK who’s saying we’ve failed with the divorce bill. The remainers on here are saying it’s what we expected. That’s just realism on our (the remainers) behalf, it’s the brexiteers who are shouting failure when dealing with the reality of brexit.

I just think we’ve been too weak and lack of confidence. No one still knows the final bill and itemization. This is just press reports so far. Nothing confirmed.

I am a realist myself. I understand we can’t walk away paying nothing but 45b when the nhs and education is literally breaking is wholly unacceptable.

skybluetony176 · Nov 28, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Another one as no surprise. How dare 17.4m people vote opposite to me. Was it stupid earlier this earlier someone said also?

Honestly, people on here don’t like democracy do they. Martgermany heads the queue of course.

So you voted for a £45b divorce bill? No, thought not. Let’s see how the Northern Ireland border is sorted and see if you voted for that also. My guess is it won’t be.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 28, 2017

Anyway, the conspiracy theorist in me suggests £45mil has been planted, so when it ends up £35mil everybody says well done...

oakey · Nov 28, 2017

I don't want it to fail and will accept it turned out well if it does. That is a long term aim, anyway.
I have always feared the short term disruption and doubt that jam tomorrow will be worth the upheaval.
What I doubt we will see from the Brexiteers is any admission that they got it wrong if it turns out badly. Current form suggests they will blame everyone but themselves. And right there is why referendums and other forms of direct democracy are a bad idea ... because nobody can be held accountable for wrong decisions. In a Representative democracy those elected carry the can. Much better.

Marty · Nov 28, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Well, two remainers here have said how it's good that a deal has been made on what we owe. This also progresses the path toards leaving, of course.

Meanwhile, the person who assures us Brexit means Brexit, and that we all knew what Brexit meant is upset.

Ask who wants us to fail? The people who want constructive dialogue leading to a result, or the people who cite Farage, with his dubious grasp on truth and a tenuous relationship with the politics of fear, and who seemingly would prefer a tactic of shouting loudly at the EU, rather than actually holding a conversation...

It's a general feeling that the remainers want us to fail (not really aimed at anyone on here), lets not get into which side was telling lies shall we? I'm still waiting for the Russian invasion, tax hikes, punishment budget or immediate recession predicted by the remain camp.

People voted for what they believed in, they weren't lead down the path by Farage.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 28, 2017

Marty said:
lets not get into which side was telling lies shall we?

When Farage is cited, he's streets ahead of anybody!

Well, bar Johnson, who sneaks under the radar.

Anybody else (both remain and leave) are mere amateurs on the mistruth stakes behind that pair!

oakey · Nov 28, 2017

Marty said:
It's a general feeling that the remainers want us to fail (not really aimed at anyone on here), lets not get into which side was telling lies shall we? I'm still waiting for the Russian invasion, tax hikes, punishment budget or immediate recession predicted by the remain camp.

People voted for what they believed in, they weren't lead down the path by Farage.

I don't think it helpful to say one side were misled. We were all misled. Both sides presented weak and fear monger of campaigns. Which is another reason why referendums are a bad idea. We don't get a quality debate, we get more heat than light.

skybluetony176 · Nov 28, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
I just think we’ve been too weak and lack of confidence. No one still knows the final bill and itemization. This is just press reports so far. Nothing confirmed.

I am a realist myself. I understand we can’t walk away paying nothing but 45b when the nhs and education is literally breaking is wholly unacceptable.

I think the word is press leaks not press reports. This is the government softening the blow. If we didn’t have the divorce bill the nhs and education would still be breaking. The government doesn’t want to invest in them to the levels that they require.

skybluetony176 · Nov 28, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Anyway, the conspiracy theorist in me suggests £45mil has been planted, so when it ends up £35mil everybody says well done...

Had the same thought myself.

Marty · Nov 28, 2017

oakey said:
I don't want it to fail and will accept it turned out well if it does. That is a long term aim, anyway.
I have always feared the short term disruption and doubt that jam tomorrow will be worth the upheaval.
What I doubt we will see from the Brexiteers is any admission that they got it wrong if it turns out badly. Current form suggests they will blame everyone but themselves. And right there is why referendums and other forms of direct democracy are a bad idea ... because nobody can be held accountable for wrong decisions. In a Representative democracy those elected carry the can. Much better.

The EU is becoming increasingly undemocratic, it's turning itself into a super state, that's why I voted out, I want no part of the EU after the way it made a mockery of democracy by making Irish and Dutch (I think) have re votes until they got the right answer. If it goes badly tits up, I will hold my hands up and say I was wrong, but seeing how the EU is treating us, and the likes of Poland and Hungary make me feel we're better well out of it.

Marty · Nov 28, 2017

oakey said:
I don't think it helpful to say one side were misled. We were all misled. Both sides presented weak and fear monger of campaigns. Which is another reason why referendums are a bad idea. We don't get a quality debate, we get more heat than light.

Completely agree!

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 28, 2017

Marty said:
after the way it made a mockery of democracy by making Irish and Dutch (I think) have re votes until they got the right answer.

It's worth noting that if the will of the people had been firmly against 'the right answer' then any revote would have gone further in favour of the 'wrong answer' than before,

Kingokings204 · Nov 28, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
I think the word is press leaks not press reports. This is the government softening the blow. If we didn’t have the divorce bill the nhs and education would still be breaking. The government doesn’t want to invest in them to the levels that they require.

Maybe true but 45b doesn’t help either does it? I never believed 350m would go to the nhs but I would hope some of it would.

Again, I don’t think 45b is correct. We’ve paid it because May is weak and needs a deal. She has pandered and conceded on nearly everything. She doesn’t have to.

“Leaks” (happy now?) now saying it’s nearer 38b which includes two year transition.

Kingokings204 · Nov 28, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
It's worth noting that if the will of the people had been firmly against 'the right answer' then any revote would have gone further in favour of the 'wrong answer' than before,

Yeah I guess all the extra money and fake job gaurentees Ireland were given didn’t help sway the vote in 2008?

Remind me again how many countries had a vote on the Lisbon treaty?

Astute · Nov 29, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Yup. Blame those who promised the world, rather than those who have to deliver the reality.

So you don't blame May for anything then?

Or does it only count for certain people?

Astute · Nov 29, 2017

Marty said:
Why do the remainer's want us to fail so badly? I get that you may have wanted a different outcome, but as a country we voted to leave, and we'll all share the consequences, if they are good or bad. So lets just get on with it, with the best outcome for us as a nation.

Some see it more as wanting it to go badly for us so they can say they were right than for it to go well and be proven wrong.

Astute · Nov 29, 2017

chiefdave said:
So after all that pissing around we're going to pay what they asked for on day one? Nice waste of time that turned out to be.

Citizens rights shouldn't be too hard to settle, although I wouldn't underestimate Davis and May's ability to screw it up.

The problem will be the Irish border. Finding a solution that pleases all will not be easy.

From their working out it could have been over 100 billion.

A trade deal will make it better for the people of the EU and make it easy fir the Ireland border. The people remaining in the EU would be better off with a good trade deal. So it is down to those running the thing.

Is anyone here hopeful of the best result all round or do you think they will see it as a chance of punishment?

As we all know the EU is looking for new trade deals around the world. We will see how easy it will be for them.

Astute · Nov 29, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Well, two remainers here have said how it's good that a deal has been made on what we owe. This also progresses the path toards leaving, of course.

Meanwhile, the person who assures us Brexit means Brexit, and that we all knew what Brexit meant is upset.

Ask who wants us to fail? The people who want constructive dialogue leading to a result, or the people who cite Farage, with his dubious grasp on truth and a tenuous relationship with the politics of fear, and who seemingly would prefer a tactic of shouting loudly at the EU, rather than actually holding a conversation...

I have tried to be constructive. Look at those who have constantly had a go at me. Look at those who have constantly tried to prove me wrong and failed.

So I haven't attacked May and praised Corbyn enough. Yeah right. The remainers want to attack the person who wanted to stay in the EU and defend the person who always wanted out. I don't get it.

Hopefully we can move on to round two. Lets get cracked on and see what happens.

Astute · Nov 29, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
It’s KOK who’s saying we’ve failed with the divorce bill. The remainers on here are saying it’s what we expected. That’s just realism on our (the remainers) behalf, it’s the brexiteers who are shouting failure when dealing with the reality of brexit.

So have I suddenly become a remainer again?

Sick Boy · Nov 29, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Politics of fear was the remain side and possibly cost the vote. Be ashamed.

Like Turkey joining the EU at any moment and hundreds of millions of Turks moving here? Be ashamed.

Astute · Nov 29, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
When Farage is cited, he's streets ahead of anybody!

Well, bar Johnson, who sneaks under the radar.

Anybody else (both remain and leave) are mere amateurs on the mistruth stakes behind that pair!

You missed out Cameron. And it was him that started off this shitfest.

This is an interesting read.

Brexit didn't come from a campaign of lies

Astute · Nov 29, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Like Turkey joining the EU at any moment and hundreds of millions of Turks moving here? Be ashamed.

Fear was used on both sides.

Cameron in Crisis: How 'Project Fear' Backfired on UK Prime Minister

Sick Boy · Nov 29, 2017

Astute said:
Fear was used on both sides.

Cameron in Crisis: How 'Project Fear' Backfired on UK Prime Minister

I know, I've said the same myself. The remain campaign was lacklustre and too negative.

Astute · Nov 29, 2017

Sick Boy said:
I know, I've said the same myself. The remain campaign was lacklustre and too negative.

My thoughts are it was a campaign of fear because the same tactics worked on the Scottish referendum. But just about everyone knew what they were voting for then. The EU one was different. A lot of people didn't have a clue. Many didn't know the consequences of leaving or how the EU is run. It was all about fear and not giving the electorate knowledge.

Even with everything I know I can't say what is best. We won't know until the negotiations are over.

The best thing so far is that Ukip are finished. There is no need for them at all now. We can get back to the normal political bullshit. But around the EU they still have the same problem to deal with.

martcov · Nov 29, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Yes how dare I vote. How dare I use my right to vote.

Fucking prick.

Apropos fucking prick.. look at the present mess. We were the sick man of Europe at one time, but became a successful country again in the EU. Yes, you voted for leave and now we are a joke again. That makes you one of the guilty ones if this continues to go pear shape.

We have a representative parliamentary system which should debate these things and then decide on behalf of voters. If they get it wrong, they are fucking pricks - if you have got it wrong, then you and the rest of the 17,4 million are fucking pricks. You carry the can for this. It comes with the responsibility of decision making.

martcov · Nov 29, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Another one as no surprise. How dare 17.4m people vote opposite to me. Was it stupid earlier this earlier someone said also?

Honestly, people on here don’t like democracy do they. Martgermany heads the queue of course.

I do like democracy. If the people making the decisions get it wrong, I have the right to criticise them. If it is a party that makes the wrong decision they can be voted out. If it is 17,4 million voters in an advisory referendum, I can criticise them. That is democracy, but you, judging by your insult, either don’t like it or don’t get it.

martcov · Nov 29, 2017

chiefdave said:
So after all that pissing around we're going to pay what they asked for on day one? Nice waste of time that turned out to be.

Citizens rights shouldn't be too hard to settle, although I wouldn't underestimate Davis and May's ability to screw it up.

The problem will be the Irish border. Finding a solution that pleases all will not be easy.

Seeing as leavers think 52:48 is a convincing mandate, there should be no problem with the sea border idea as the vast majority on the island of Ireland don’t want a land border. Anyone put forward the idea of an all Ireland referendum on the subject?

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