The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (17 Viewers)

clint van damme · Nov 26, 2017

Astute said:
All?

So who said all? Just shows how impossible it is to have a debate on this thread. I think it would be better to leave this thread to all you that are pro EU so you can say how much leaving will be a disaster and nothing good can come frim leaving. You can then concentrate on the back slapping.

Perhaps you should read what Anna Soubry has to say about the hard Brexit contingent in the tory party:

Anna Soubry on Brexit: ‘History will condemn those who haven’t tried to stop all this nonsense’

this bit stood out:
" It’s not enough that you accept the result [of the referendum]; it’s not enough that you voted to trigger article 50. Now it’s, ‘Yeah, yeah, but do you believe?’ It’s like the counter-revolutionary forces of Chairman Mao or Joe Stalin. It’s not enough that you went against everything you ever believed in; you have to sign up in blood. It’s like Orwell’s thought police and the reign of terror combined.”

I'm sure you'll be keen to read it as you like to see things from both sides!!

Astute · Nov 26, 2017

clint van damme said:
Perhaps you should read what Anna Soubry has to say about the hard Brexit contingent in the tory party:

Anna Soubry on Brexit: ‘History will condemn those who haven’t tried to stop all this nonsense’

this bit stood out:
" It’s not enough that you accept the result [of the referendum]; it’s not enough that you voted to trigger article 50. Now it’s, ‘Yeah, yeah, but do you believe?’ It’s like the counter-revolutionary forces of Chairman Mao or Joe Stalin. It’s not enough that you went against everything you ever believed in; you have to sign up in blood. It’s like Orwell’s thought police and the reign of terror combined.”

I'm sure you'll be keen to read it as you like to see things from both sides!!

I have read a lot of what she has said. I have also read of what others have said which has the total opposite view.

Did you know that she voted to trigger article 50? Or that she blames people like you....white Labour supporters....for voting leave?

Some of what she says makes sense. But she can also be nasty and vindictive.

clint van damme · Nov 26, 2017

Astute said:
I have read a lot of what she has said. I have also read of what others have said which has the total opposite view.

Did you know that she voted to trigger article 50? Or that she blames people like you....white Labour supporters....for voting leave?

Some of what she says makes sense. But she can also be nasty and vindictive.

of course she can be nasty and vindictive, she's a tory MP!!
But just shows there are plenty of zealots on the leave side.

I still don't see how someone like me who is increasingly negative about brexit is going to change anything by being positive.
It will either work out or it won't, my attitude toward it won't matter one iota.

Astute · Nov 26, 2017

IIRC it was her that said Farage looks like he has his finger up his arse :smuggrin:

Grendel · Nov 26, 2017

martcov said:
Why? We need stability in Europe more than ever. Merkel is meeting with the SPD on Monday. The branch of the youth movement in Düsseldorf is not exactly her own party turning against her. So wait and see.

Why do we need stability in Europe. An unstable Europe would be great news for our negotiating position. If she went there would be chaos in Germany and maybe an interest rate rise which could trigger uncertainties in debt ridden Greece and Portugal.

The more unstable the better.

Sick Boy · Nov 26, 2017

clint van damme said:
of course she can be nasty and vindictive, she's a tory MP!!
But just shows there are plenty of zealots on the leave side.

I still don't see how someone like me who is increasingly negative about brexit is going to change anything by being positive.
It will either work out or it won't, my attitude toward it won't matter one iota.

It's the shifting of blame onto others. It will be those who voted remain who end up getting the blame for not being positive enough. The EU will also be to blame for not bending over and doing whatever the UK wanted.

Captain Dart · Nov 26, 2017

martcov said:
Why? We need stability in Europe more than ever. Merkel is meeting with the SPD on Monday. The branch of the youth movement in Düsseldorf is not exactly her own party turning against her. So wait and see.

If the Germans wanted true democracy they'd legislate so a Chancellor can only have a limited number of terms.

skybluetony176 · Nov 26, 2017

Captain Dart said:
If the Germans wanted true democracy they'd legislate so a Chancellor can only have a limited number of terms.

Like Russia?

Captain Dart · Nov 26, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Like Russia?

No like the USA, if Roosevelt hadn't have died he'd have gone on and on.
Twenty-second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

skybluetony176 · Nov 26, 2017

Captain Dart said:
No like the USA, if Roosevelt hadn't have died he'd have gone on and on.
Twenty-second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Russia have something similar. Putin can’t serve more than two consecutive terms. He’s on round two of two consecutive terms and some believe that the guy in between his two rounds was a stooge and he’s really set to serve five nothing to stop the cycle starting again. He’s odds on to be ruler longer than Starlin was. But it’s democratic. Apparently.

Captain Dart · Nov 26, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Russia have something similar. Putin can’t serve more than two consecutive terms. He’s on round two of two consecutive terms and some believe that the guy in between his two rounds was a stooge and he’s really set to serve five nothing to stop the cycle starting again. He’s odds on to be ruler longer than Starlin was. But it’s democratic. Apparently.

No they don't dumb nuts, a US president can serve no more than 2 terms of 4 years consecutive or non-consecutive.

skybluetony176 · Nov 26, 2017

Captain Dart said:
No they don't dumb nuts, a US president can serve no more than 2 terms of 4 years consecutive or non-consecutive.

Like I said, similar. I never said they were the same numb nuts.

martcov · Nov 26, 2017

Grendel said:
Why do we need stability in Europe. An unstable Europe would be great news for our negotiating position. If she went there would be chaos in Germany and maybe an interest rate rise which could trigger uncertainties in debt ridden Greece and Portugal.

The more unstable the better.

Yes Vladimir.

martcov · Nov 26, 2017

Captain Dart said:
If the Germans wanted true democracy they'd legislate so a Chancellor can only have a limited number of terms.

I thought true democracy was through referenda when you ask people, who haven’t got a clue about the subject, a yes no question and tell them it is only an advisory referendum. After telling them some whopping lies of course to make sure they get the right answer - hopefully.

martcov · Nov 27, 2017

Grendel said:
Why do we need stability in Europe. An unstable Europe would be great news for our negotiating position. If she went there would be chaos in Germany and maybe an interest rate rise which could trigger uncertainties in debt ridden Greece and Portugal.

The more unstable the better.

You really sum up the Brexit mentality. The plucky Brits who are happy to smash Europe as if we are in a 40’s war situation. Who cannot understand why we need stability in Europe, and who do not want to understand that. Who would rather wave Union Jack’s and sing Rule Britannia than look at our geo-political position. Look at how the world has changed, how other countries are catching us up or overtaking us and how another countries are working together politically and economically.

We need a stable United Europe, not a Europe split into egotistical nation states. We had that. It did not work and ended in the biggest wars in history.

My daughter is top of her class in English and Spanish, learning French and her mother tongue is German. There is no way I could or would bother to try and explain some of the comments and views on here. Her future is European. To have to explain Grendel’s, statement, which is a fairly common Brexit viewpoint, of wanting as much instability in Europe as possible, would be downright embarrassing.

We cannot even sort our own border problem between Northern Ireland and ROI. We even have Liam Fox saying the EU must do a trade deal before we get on to the border problem. No mate. The UK wants to leave the EU. Tell us how you do that without breaking the GFA agreement.

Why weren’t these things sorted before the referendum? How come the dishonest group of Gove, Johnson, Davis and Fox are still in the cabinet?

Germany is in a difficult position, but the UK is well and truly screwed. Look at the DUP. Unbelievable. Even hinting at intervention from a higher power. As if the creator of the universe would be so stupid to put the DUP in a position of power in the Brexit negotiations and over the wishes of the majority of the people of Ireland.

Dream on mate. The more stable Germany and the EU are, the better for everyone in Europe. If you wish for a backwater off the coast of Europe, then so be it. A far cry from the days of “Cool Britannia” when people admired the “brand” of Britain.

As Trump says..... sad.

dutchman · Nov 27, 2017

martcov said:
Look at how the world has changed, how other countries are catching us up or overtaking us and how another countries are working together politically and economically.

Actually, that was the argument for Britain joining the Common Market in the first place so in your own words it's been a spectacular failure!

martcov · Nov 27, 2017

dutchman said:
Actually, that was the argument for Britain joining the Common Market in the first place so in your own words it's been a spectacular failure!

We are wealthier, our economy was one of the strongest in the world, we were protected economically, we have had a peaceful relationship with the rest of Europe and we had even solved the Irish problem. The refugee problem and the terrorism problem were created by wars which we fought as the junior partner of the USA. The EU is under pressure as a result. All in all joining the common market was, and is still, a spectacular success. We will see how leaving pans out. Up until now nothing good to report.

martcov · Nov 27, 2017

dutchman said:
Actually, that was the argument for Britain joining the Common Market in the first place so in your own words it's been a spectacular failure!

If you mean that it is a spectacular failure because other countries are catching up, then you mistake the aims of economics. I want other countries to catch up, but I want to be able to compete with them and to do that we need to stick together. How does an offshore island intend to compete long term with China or India or an Asian economic block?

dutchman · Nov 27, 2017

martcov said:
We are wealthier, our economy was one of the strongest in the world, we were protected economically, we have had a peaceful relationship with the rest of Europe and we had even solved the Irish problem

After 44 years of British membership of the EU did you or did you not say:

"Look at how the world has changed, how other countries are catching us up or overtaking us"?

dutchman · Nov 27, 2017

martcov said:
If you mean that it is a spectacular failure because other countries are catching up, then you mistake the aims of economics.

We were told at the time that the aim of Britain joining the Common Market was to "catch up" with other European countries. You now admit that has been a spectacular failure.

martcov · Nov 27, 2017

dutchman said:
After 44 years of British membership of the EU did you or did you not say:

"Look at how the world has changed, how other countries are catching us up or overtaking us"?

Yes. look where India was, or China. Where‘s the problem? What‘s you point? Would you prefer them to stay poor? I am not claiming that they have caught up with us because the EU is bad. How do you get that? They are catching up with us because of technology and other factors. We actually help countries to develop.

But, we need to trade with them on level terms.

martcov · Nov 27, 2017

dutchman said:
We were told at the time that the aim of Britain joining the Common Market was to "catch up" with other European countries. You now admit that has been a spectacular failure.

What? I wasn’t aware of that. Which countries were we catching up with?

Never heard of that angle. You are making things up.

dutchman · Nov 27, 2017

martcov said:
What? I wasn’t aware of that. Which countries were we catching up with?

Supposedly with the six original Common Market member states.

martcov said:
Never heard of that angle. You are making things up.

Am I indeed? I assume you never watched financial shows such as The Money Programme or the televised debates of the period and professor James Bellini's famous comment that "The Common Market is not a clinic you take your financial problems to to have them fixed".

dutchman · Nov 27, 2017

martcov said:
Yes. look where India was, or China. Where‘s the problem? What‘s you point? Would you prefer them to stay poor? I am not claiming that they have caught up with us because the EU is bad.

Neither am I. I am saying that membership of the EU has failed to stop Britain from falling behind other nations despite claims at the time of joining that it would.

skybluetony176 · Nov 27, 2017

dutchman said:
Supposedly with the six original Common Market member states.

We have a stronger economy than all but 1 of the 6 original members now IIRC. Wouldn’t that mean that the joining has been a success?

martcov · Nov 27, 2017

dutchman said:
Neither am I. I am saying that membership of the EU has failed to stop Britain from falling behind other nations despite claims at the time of joining that it would.

What claims? The claims were: export markets for our then bigger manufacturing base. Jobs because of this. And we wanted to be part of the European project.

That is what I voted for in the first referendum.

Our manufacturing industry was outdated, unionised with too many competing unions, management was not there by qualification, but often through family and old school tie, and altogether not up to productivity levels in some countries.

We concentrated on invisibles such as insurance and finance which we are good at,

We modernised and became a successful European country.

After years of EU bashing we are now leaving into unknown territory and basically throwing away everything we helped build up.

The people leading this mad move are known liars, scallywags and not particularly bright- which seems to be an advantage with Brexit.

clint van damme · Nov 27, 2017

bit of good news at last:

Pharma deals 'show confidence' in strategy

doesn't quite compensate for all the negative stuff of last week but it's something.

For future reference, when I'm asking Brexiteers for examples of reasons to be positive this is the sort of thing I'm on about not rhetoric and bluster like they need us more than we need them or Spain needs tourists!!
Actual, real good economic news. Hopefully more will follow these two in and not the EBA and EMA out though I'm still sceptical and concerned at the moment.

dutchman · Nov 27, 2017

martcov said:
What claims? The claims were: export markets for our then bigger manufacturing base. Jobs because of this.

So jobs in manufacturing rose after membership then did they?

martcov said:
And we wanted to be part of the European project..

I don't know anyone who wanted to be part of any 'project', least of all a fully integrated EU superstate with no national boundaries. The referendum was held solely on the basis of whether voters approved of the new terms of membership as negotiated by Harold Wilson's government.

martcov said:
Our manufacturing industry was outdated, unionised with too many competing unions, management was not there by qualification, but often through family and old school tie, and altogether not up to productivity levels in some countries.

Britain had outdated manufacturing industries and modern efficient agriculture whereas the six common market founding countries all had modern manufacturing industries and inefficient farmers. The two sets of national interests were totally incompatible with each other and still are.

martcov said:
We concentrated on invisibles such as insurance and finance which we are good at,

We modernised and became a successful European country.

So 'successful' that Juncker was able to reject every demand for EU reform made by David Cameron without even batting an eyelid.

martcov said:
After years of EU bashing we are now leaving into unknown territory and basically throwing away everything we helped build up.

It looks to me that it's the EU which is moving into unknown territory and throwing away everything it has built up.

martcov said:
The people leading this mad move are known liars, scallywags and not particularly bright

That's a pretty good description of the people running the EU in my experience.

dutchman · Nov 27, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
We have a stronger economy than all but 1 of the 6 original members now IIRC. Wouldn’t that mean that the joining has been a success?

I doubt if anyone who once worked in the manufacturing sector would agree.

skybluetony176 · Nov 27, 2017

dutchman said:
I doubt if anyone who once worked in the manufacturing sector would agree.

How did joining the EU cause the decline in manufacturing?

dutchman · Nov 27, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
How did joining the EU cause the decline in manufacturing?

The trade was all one way. Britain was happy to buy goods made in the EU whereas EU countries were very reluctant to buy goods made in the UK. That resulted in the UK now having a trade deficit of £80billion a year with the EU in manufactured goods.
Factories which one made goods in the UK such as Peugeot, Cadbury's and HP Sauce have been closed and production moved to EU countries.

Astute · Nov 28, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
We have a stronger economy than all but 1 of the 6 original members now IIRC. Wouldn’t that mean that the joining has been a success?

Isn't it amazing how numbers can be fiddled.

Isn't it amazing how we are supposed to have the smallest growth in the EU but we are doing the second best when needed.

Subscribe to read

Germany's poor hold key to election as inequality grows

From the country doing the best in the EU. 1 in 6 lives in poverty. Tax rules make the rich richer and the poor poorer. 40% of Germans don't have any savings. Worse than countries like Hungary and Cyprus. Poverty has gone up in the last year in 11 of the 16 states. Nearly 50% of single parent families live in poverty. Yet we hear the excuses on why the top parties in Germany have lost millions of votes.

Some on here say we should help the poor countries of the EU. I say charity begins at home. Yes do help others. But not at the expense of your own people. French farmers became rich because of the EU. That is how Maggie got our rebate that we still have now. Billions each year goes missing in Italy and has dine for years. What has been dine about it? Yet the countries pumping billions in each year to this have their own poverty that is kept hidden. Look at the Tories. They try to make out that it doesn't exist.

Astute · Nov 28, 2017

clint van damme said:
bit of good news at last:

Pharma deals 'show confidence' in strategy

doesn't quite compensate for all the negative stuff of last week but it's something.

For future reference, when I'm asking Brexiteers for examples of reasons to be positive this is the sort of thing I'm on about not rhetoric and bluster like they need us more than we need them or Spain needs tourists!!
Actual, real good economic news. Hopefully more will follow these two in and not the EBA and EMA out though I'm still sceptical and concerned at the moment.

Research will always happen here. It is something we are very good at. But we continue to lose jobs to the EU in manufacturing where wages are much lower and business rates are lower. Yet some say they should go up to raise more tax.

Future of GSK in Ulverston in doubt as firm scraps plans for new £350m plant | The Mail

Sick Boy · Nov 28, 2017

Astute said:
Isn't it amazing how numbers can be fiddled.

Isn't it amazing how we are supposed to have the smallest growth in the EU but we are doing the second best when needed.

Subscribe to read

Germany's poor hold key to election as inequality grows

From the country doing the best in the EU. 1 in 6 lives in poverty. Tax rules make the rich richer and the poor poorer. 40% of Germans don't have any savings. Worse than countries like Hungary and Cyprus. Poverty has gone up in the last year in 11 of the 16 states. Nearly 50% of single parent families live in poverty. Yet we hear the excuses on why the top parties in Germany have lost millions of votes.

Some on here say we should help the poor countries of the EU. I say charity begins at home. Yes do help others. But not at the expense of your own people. French farmers became rich because of the EU. That is how Maggie got our rebate that we still have now. Billions each year goes missing in Italy and has dine for years. What has been dine about it? Yet the countries pumping billions in each year to this have their own poverty that is kept hidden. Look at the Tories. They try to make out that it doesn't exist.

I'd be interested to know what percentage in the UK have savings and the difference between Germany and UK when it comes to credit cards. I know in Italy that hardly anyone gets anything on credit and they have thousands piled up in bank accounts. Much less consumeristic than here!

skybluetony176 · Nov 28, 2017

dutchman said:
The trade was all one way. Britain was happy to buy goods made in the EU whereas EU countries were very reluctant to buy goods made in the UK. That resulted in the UK now having a trade deficit of £80billion a year with the EU in manufactured goods.
Factories which one made goods in the UK such as Peugeot, Cadbury's and HP Sauce have been closed and production moved to EU countries.

If you take the British car industry it had more to do with the state off the industry and inferior products causing the collapse than anything else. Indeed EU membership actually offered the British car industry some protection against the Japanese invaders but unfortunately for the UK car industry the Japanese cars made British cars look like horse carts. Take the marina for instance. It was made with the front suspension of a car designed in the 50’s (the Morris minor), cart springs on the back, two engine options with we’re both over 20 years old and hadn’t been refined at all in that period. Despite that the pre production test cars were well received by the British motoring press with the only niggle being that no anti roll bar was fitted compromising handling. So the BL engineers fitted some, called the press back who loved the modifications. BL then put the cars into full production minus the anti roll bar and the cars bad reputation was sealed. They added one later in its production run to combat this but by then the damage is done. BL also tried to out market itself by also developing and selling the equally awful Maxi at the same time to the same market sector. It was miss management on a monumental scale. Nothing to do with the EU . If anything it was a result of failed British politics and the nationalisation and merger of the British car industry. That’s before you factor in things like union issues etc.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (17 Viewers)

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