The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (9 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Oct 14, 2017

Grendel said:
So why can't the agreement be extended to uk and Ireland as part of our agreement regarding trading arrangements with the EU? Sick boy says the Irish wouldn't want some contaminated meat (unless it's eggs or horse meat from the EU) but the swedes aren't bothered are they?

Because to be a member of either the EEA or EFTA you have to have commonalities and conditions. A lot of the trade between Northern and Southern Ireland may have to stop. Farming being especially vulnerable and this is one of the major trades between the two.
If we joined the EEA as per Norway I think we’d have to totally adhere to EU regulations so no crap beef and poultry would come into the UK and therefore the EU from America as we’d have a free trade agreement with the EU as a result of EEA membership.
EFTA membership would come with conditions and if we’ve signed a trade deal with America which includes us allowing them to export their crap beef, poultry and GM crops to us I would expect a condition to be a blanket ban on meat and poultry products from the UK because of that. Some EFTA members trade already excludes farm products for similar reasons.

Brexit at any cost is a bad brexit deal.

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
A bad deal will be far far worse for the UK than the EU. This could smash the UK while barely scratching EU. Joe average in the EU street probably won’t even notice the difference, whereas the UK will feel it at every level of society.

Can't you read what unbiased knowledgeable people are saying?

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

clint van damme said:
Convinces me that the rush to leave by the March 19 deadline is suicidal and we should take as long as needed to make sure we have solutions to some of the issues he's hi-lighted.

So why was May so wrong when saying about a 2 year extension?

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Brexit at any cost is a bad brexit deal.

Well done. How long did it take you to work that out?

And a bad deal is bad for all. But you won't admit to that.

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

clint van damme said:
i agree, I differ slightly from you in that I don't want a 2nd referendum, ( the country is split now, I think that would break it beyond repair),but I wish people would admit to how big this whole thing is, take a pause and plan to get it done in a realistic time scale.
It's becoming apparent that 17 months isn't enough and there's too much focus on the final settlement to the detriment of other key issues.

It also depends on how long the negotiations take to get rolling. I would expect 2021 at least. They need to get it right first time.

clint van damme · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
So why was May so wrong when saying about a 2 year extension?

she wasn't. I agree with her on that but many in her party don't.
I doubt she'll be at the helm much longer anyway.

martcov · Oct 14, 2017

clint van damme said:
i agree, I differ slightly from you in that I don't want a 2nd referendum, ( the country is split now, I think that would break it beyond repair),but I wish people would admit to how big this whole thing is, take a pause and plan to get it done in a realistic time scale.
It's becoming apparent that 17 months isn't enough and there's too much focus on the final settlement to the detriment of other key issues.

I didn't mention a second referendum. Just making a general point. I cannot see us coming out of this better off than we were.

clint van damme · Oct 14, 2017

martcov said:
I didn't mention a second referendum. Just making a general point. I cannot see us coming out of this better off than we were.

My mistake I thought you had.
I can't see us coming out better off either.

skybluetony176 · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
Can't you read what unbiased knowledgeable people are saying?

You don’t have to read anything to understand that a much larger demographic and population base i.e the EU is much better placed to absorb the same cost of a bad brexit deal than a much smaller demographic and population base i.e the U.K. That’s just common sense. It’s safety in numbers.

skybluetony176 · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
Well done. How long did it take you to work that out?

And a bad deal is bad for all. But you won't admit to that.

I’ve said it’s bad for all. It’s you who are having trouble excepting that it will be worse for us.

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
This is exactly the point I’ve been trying to make to astute. Someone who thinks they know everything doesn’t seem to know his EEA from his EFTA from his hard brexit. He brings Norway and Switzerland into the equation as a solution to the Irish border clearly with zero understanding of the details of the arrangements either country has with the EU. They’re both out of the EU in the same sense that Australia are out but they all have a varying different degree of commitment to the EU.

Does out mean EFTA membership?

Does out mean EEA membership?

Or non of the above?

Grendull seems confused.

So where have I mentioned them countries?

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
I’ve said it’s bad for all. It’s you who are having trouble excepting that it will be worse for us.

And how do you know that?

You are making a guess and stating it as fact.

A few countries in the EU are in the shit. They rely on us for a lot of their income. We have our own currency. They don't. We have record employment. They have massive unemployment. They rely on the EU. We won't be paying in after a certain amount of time.

Look at Italy. They are in a bit of a mess. They rely on selling to us. How will they get on if the EU decides to make it difficult?

Oh yes. Safety in troubled numbers.

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

clint van damme said:
she wasn't. I agree with her on that but many in her party don't.
I doubt she'll be at the helm much longer anyway.

Many on both sides see it as wrong. They are deluded.

And the longer the posturing lasts the longer it will take.

skybluetony176 · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
So where have I mentioned them countries?

Where have I said you have? I was clearly talking about another poster mentioning those countries and using them in a way that indicates that they don’t understand what they voted for. I said it was an example of what I was saying to you about people not understanding what they voted for.

skybluetony176 · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
And how do you know that?

You are making a guess and stating it as fact.

A few countries in the EU are in the shit. They rely on us for a lot of their income. We have our own currency. They don't. We have record employment. They have massive unemployment. They rely on the EU. We won't be paying in after a certain amount of time.

Look at Italy. They are in a bit of a mess. They rely on selling to us. How will they get on if the EU decides to make it difficult?

Oh yes. Safety in troubled numbers.

If a multi billion pound corporation takes a £2000 bad debt can they absorb it easier than a one man band taking a £2000 bad debt? The answer is of course yes it can. Common sense. Not guessing, just common sense. It’s the same principle. Collectively the EU economy is many times larger than the UK economy so common sense tells you that any brexit hit will be easier for them to take collectively than the U.K. can take on it’s own. It’s economics at a very basic level.

Sick Boy · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
And how do you know that?

You are making a guess and stating it as fact.

A few countries in the EU are in the shit. They rely on us for a lot of their income. We have our own currency. They don't. We have record employment. They have massive unemployment. They rely on the EU. We won't be paying in after a certain amount of time.

Look at Italy. They are in a bit of a mess. They rely on selling to us. How will they get on if the EU decides to make it difficult?

Oh yes. Safety in troubled numbers.

A trade deal is in Italy's best interests but you are coming across at though it's only market is the UK.

Have you worked out your big idea for homelessness post-Brexit?

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

Sick Boy said:
A trade deal is in Italy's best interests but you are coming across at though it's only market is the UK.

Have you worked out your big idea for homelessness post-Brexit?

Italy depends on us. We are leaving. So yes it is dependent on what sort of deal there is.

What was your great idea if we stayed in for the homeless? You can't see that millions of people coming to live here has an effect on homelessness in the UK.

I will say the same thing yet again. We can only guess what will happen with the negotiations. Anyone saying that they know what is going to happen is deluded or just trying to make a point. And we have a lot of point making and point scoring.

Grendel · Oct 14, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Are you intentionally being a bit slow?

Lol. In the end unique solutions to specific issues can be found

Lessons for UK and Ireland? Norway, Sweden keep EU external border soft

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
If a multi billion pound corporation takes a £2000 bad debt can they absorb it easier than a one man band taking a £2000 bad debt? The answer is of course yes it can. Common sense. Not guessing, just common sense. It’s the same principle. Collectively the EU economy is many times larger than the UK economy so common sense tells you that any brexit hit will be easier for them to take collectively than the U.K. can take on it’s own. It’s economics at a very basic level.

Common sense would tell you that a company seriously in debt by many billions and not enough money coming in doesn't need things to go much more badly wrong to send it over the edge. Whereas a company that is doing well but has to take a hit on 12% of it's sales will feel the difference. But not as bad as those already in the shit.

Those collectively doing good and shit taking a hit of 175m a week will also notice the difference. The one taking a hit on 12% of sales has an extra 175m a week to help smooth things over.

Your guess is as good as mine. But I know that I would prefer to be in the UK than most countries in the EU. That is why millions of people have come to live here.

Sick Boy · Oct 14, 2017

Grendel said:
Lol. In the end unique solutions to specific issues can be found

Lessons for UK and Ireland? Norway, Sweden keep EU external border soft

"To keep up the flow of goods and enjoy the benefits of low or zero tariffs when companies trade, Norway has committed to harmonise its commercial rules with those of the EU."

I'd be happy if Britain was to do that.

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

Grendel said:
Lol. In the end unique solutions to specific issues can be found

Lessons for UK and Ireland? Norway, Sweden keep EU external border soft

Reuters? It is biased as it doesn't agree with the remoaners.

Sick Boy · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
Italy depends on us. We are leaving. So yes it is dependent on what sort of deal there is.

What was your great idea if we stayed in for the homeless? You can't see that millions of people coming to live here has an effect on homelessness in the UK.

I will say the same thing yet again. We can only guess what will happen with the negotiations. Anyone saying that they know what is going to happen is deluded or just trying to make a point. And we have a lot of point making and point scoring.

I would invest more money into buildimg hostels and affordable accommodation, while also investing more to prevent the root causes. I'd also go after tax dodgers as well. It's a shame that May's DUP bung was put to better use.

Italy isn't dependent on the UK. It sells more to the UK but it doesn't mean that it would crumble and it's very different to being dependent.

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

Sick Boy said:
"To keep up the flow of goods and enjoy the benefits of low or zero tariffs when companies trade, Norway has committed to harmonise its commercial rules with those of the EU."

I'd be happy if Britain was to do that.

Which is what some of us have said. There is no need for solid borders. There is no need to split Ireland again.

It isn't as though Ireland would overnight become a major smuggling route. It is surrounded by water.

martcov · Oct 14, 2017

Grendel said:
Lol. In the end unique solutions to specific issues can be found

Lessons for UK and Ireland? Norway, Sweden keep EU external border soft

Yeah, both in the same customs union. But the problem is not the ROI or the EU. The problem is not having a bespoke customs union on the island of Ireland, ( ROI and EU would wear that ), but how do you incorporate the rest of Britain into it if there is a hard Brexit?

Sick Boy · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
Which is what some of us have said. There is no need for solid borders. There is no need to split Ireland again.

It isn't as though Ireland would overnight become a major smuggling route. It is surrounded by water.

Good stuff if you agree but if we start importing dodgy American food it isn't going to be possible. The issue would be internal and over the border. But like you I would like to see Ireland as one country long term.

Grendel · Oct 14, 2017

Sick Boy said:
To keep up the flow of goods and enjoy the benefits of low or zero tariffs when companies trade, Norway has committed to harmonise its commercial rules with those of the EU.

I'd be happy if Britain was to do that.

Again they have a solution that can has worked through via a form of negotiation.

The key point of the quote is twofold. The acknowledgement that a bespoke arrangement will need to be found and that the scare story of a "hard border" is exactly that. It's not ever going to be barbed wire and long queues with armed officer which is the image deliberately being conjured up.

Like it or not in the end people will be allowed movement through and we will not - as the UDP have stated - be in the customs union. The Eu and it's supporters really must be getting desperate if this is the kind of scare stories that are being used to try and make a case for remain.

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

Sick Boy said:
I would invest more money into buildimg hostels and affordable accommodation, while also investing more to prevent the root causes. I'd also go after tax dodgers as well. It's a shame that May's DUP bung was put to better use.

Italy isn't dependent on the UK. It sells more to the UK but it doesn't mean that it would crumble and it's very different to being dependent.

Another reminder

Back in January, Italy’s deputy foreign minister Mario Giro warned that the UK was entering into an economic ‘cold war’ with the European Union. More recently, Italy’s deputy finance minister Enrico Morando played down fears that Brexit would have disastrous consequences. The problem is, Brexit and any stumble in the UK’s economic fortunes will put pressure on the Italian economy.

When the UK leaves the EU, Italy faces the prospect not just of increased contributions to the EU budget, but potential barriers to the UK market, upon which it is reliant for exports. Already the UK is experiencing sluggish wage growth and increased costs of living. Along with the weakness of the pound, Brexit-shaped pressures will impact upon Italian businesses.

If anything, Italy’s precarious position provides good reasons to hope that the EU will push for a sensible Brexit deal that preserves the frictionless trading between the UK and countries like Italy. Brexit may not be the EU’s greatest problem, but indirectly Britain’s desire to leave the EU puts pressure on the real problem facing the European project.

Yes we need to build more houses. Nobody says anything different?

Root causes? Orher than not building enough is the population explosion. But you can't seem to bring yourself to admitting that it has been quite a large part of the problem.

Sick Boy · Oct 14, 2017

Grendel said:
Again they have a solution that can has worked through via a form of negotiation.

The key point of the quote is twofold. The acknowledgement that a bespoke arrangement will need to be found and that the scare story of a "hard border" is exactly that. It's not ever going to be barbed wire and long queues with armed officer which is the image deliberately being conjured up.

Like it or not in the end people will be allowed movement through and we will not - as the UDP have stated - be in the customs union. The Eu and it's supporters really must be getting desperate if this is the kind of scare stories that are being used to try and make a case for remain.

The only people who have mentioned barbed wire and armed officers is you.

Don't you mean the DUP as well?

Grendel · Oct 14, 2017

martcov said:
Yeah, both in the same customs union. But the problem is not the ROI or the EU. The problem is not having a bespoke customs union on the island of Ireland, ( ROI and EU would wear that ), but how do you incorporate the rest of Britain into it if there is a hard Brexit?

Norway aren't in the customs union. Switzerland are not either. The EFTA is not the customs union. Switzerland as an example have an entirely independent free trade arrangement with china.

Astute · Oct 14, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Good stuff if you agree but if we start importing dodgy American food it isn't going to be possible. The issue would be internal and over the border. But like you I would like to see Ireland as one country long term.

Fuck me. What has dodgy American food got to do with it?

martcov · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
Common sense would tell you that a company seriously in debt by many billions and not enough money coming in doesn't need things to go much more badly wrong to send it over the edge. Whereas a company that is doing well but has to take a hit on 12% of it's sales will feel the difference. But not as bad as those already in the shit.

Those collectively doing good and shit taking a hit of 175m a week will also notice the difference. The one taking a hit on 12% of sales has an extra 175m a week to help smooth things over.

Your guess is as good as mine. But I know that I would prefer to be in the UK than most countries in the EU. That is why millions of people have come to live here.

The millions who have come to the UK are the young and poor who want to better themselves. The rest are getting by at home with their families. They may well prefer that to the UK.

Sick Boy · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
Another reminder

Back in January, Italy’s deputy foreign minister Mario Giro warned that the UK was entering into an economic ‘cold war’ with the European Union. More recently, Italy’s deputy finance minister Enrico Morando played down fears that Brexit would have disastrous consequences. The problem is, Brexit and any stumble in the UK’s economic fortunes will put pressure on the Italian economy.

When the UK leaves the EU, Italy faces the prospect not just of increased contributions to the EU budget, but potential barriers to the UK market, upon which it is reliant for exports. Already the UK is experiencing sluggish wage growth and increased costs of living. Along with the weakness of the pound, Brexit-shaped pressures will impact upon Italian businesses.

If anything, Italy’s precarious position provides good reasons to hope that the EU will push for a sensible Brexit deal that preserves the frictionless trading between the UK and countries like Italy. Brexit may not be the EU’s greatest problem, but indirectly Britain’s desire to leave the EU puts pressure on the real problem facing the European project.

Yes we need to build more houses. Nobody says anything different?

Root causes? Orher than not building enough is the population explosion. But you can't seem to bring yourself to admitting that it has been quite a large part of the problem.

Italy has far bigger internal problems that are of its own doing and mindset.

Root Causes
- Drug and alcohol addiction
- domestic violence
-mental health issues
- sexual abuse
-child abuse
- lack of affordable accommodation

martcov · Oct 14, 2017

Grendel said:
Norway aren't in the customs union. Switzerland are not either. The EFTA is not the customs union. Switzerland as an example have an entirely independent free trade arrangement with china.

Didn’t say they were. They do however have agreements with the EU. The talk of hard border assumes there will be a cliff edge scenario without the UK reaching any agreements.

Grendel · Oct 14, 2017

Astute said:
Fuck me. What has dodgy American food got to do with it?

He's claiming the eu food standards are not applied. Given that a CWF study found the Netherlands to be one of the 5 worst countries for animal cruelty in terms of food standards that's pretty funny.

Sick Boy · Oct 14, 2017

martcov said:
The millions who have come to the UK are the young and poor who want to better themselves. The rest are getting by at home with their families. They may well prefer that to the UK.

Believe me, the majority of the Italians I know in the UK would much rather be back in Italy. A lot of them i know over there would never even consider coming here either. There is also a culture of passing down accommodation within families which seems to work well.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (9 Viewers)

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