The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
That site is an official government website.

What is pathetic is people constantly coming out with lies to make it look like they have evidence to cover their story. It is pathetic that a few of you have accused me of things that are obviously not true. It is pathetic that you blame anything you can for the millions of homeless we now have.

it isn't an official government website but let's not get bogged down in that.

You believe immigration causes certain issues, I don't think it's as problematic as you do but I won't deny there are associated issues. I also believe there are associated benefits which you won't seem to acknowledge.
If we kick out all EU migrants tomorrow there would be a negative affect on the service industries, manufacturing - how would you suggest counter acting those negative affects?

Look at the example in kingokings post 5705, what do you think will happen to the cost of food if we have to start employing UK nationals to do this work and pay them a living wage and associated benefits? What will happen when costs go up? To be honest, I'd gladly pay more for this to happen but a lot of people will be up in arms.

If we kick out EU migrants it won't stop immigration from the rest of the world. India have already said they aren't interested in a trade deal with the UK unless they relax criteria for immigration into the UK for Indian citizens. Would you tell them no deal? And if we give into their demands in order to secure a deal can you imagine the reaction from certain quarters of the brexit support (not referring to anyone on here), if we swap white immigrants for brown one?!

I acknowledge that mass immigration can't go on forever, we are an island with a finite amount of space and resources but just kicking immigrants out in isolation without being part of a wider strategy isn't going to solve our woes. I still think the wealth grab and the defunding of public services that go with it are a much bigger danger to this country than immigration from the EU.

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Well I think it's safe to assume Eastern European are working and picking the fruit for less than the minimum wage. The reason British workers won't do is not because they are all lazy it's because they don't want to do it for £20 a day. For Eastern Europeans this is double a normal day's wage back home and the farmers make more profit. Win win. It's not rocket science.

Then it can lead to this which in my opinion is disgraceful. Loads of it up and down the country. Here is one example today in the news.

Police discover 35 men crammed into three-bedroom house in dawn raid

Seems to be a problem with law enforcement. May talks about modern slavery, but it is very common and not just with EU migrants. The same goes for a lack of minimum wage enforcement. I cannot understand why these things are not top of the list of things to control.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

clint van damme said:
it isn't an official government website but let's not get bogged down in that.

You believe immigration causes certain issues, I don't think it's as problematic as you do but I won't deny there are associated issues. I also believe there are associated benefits which you won't seem to acknowledge.
If we kick out all EU migrants tomorrow there would be a negative affect on the service industries, manufacturing - how would you suggest counter acting those negative affects?

Look at the example in kingokings post 5705, what do you think will happen to the cost of food if we have to start employing UK nationals to do this work and pay them a living wage and associated benefits? What will happen when costs go up? To be honest, I'd gladly pay more for this to happen but a lot of people will be up in arms.

If we kick out EU migrants it won't stop immigration from the rest of the world. India have already said they aren't interested in a trade deal with the UK unless they relax criteria for immigration into the UK for Indian citizens. Would you tell them no deal? And if we give into their demands in order to secure a deal can you imagine the reaction from certain quarters of the brexit support (not referring to anyone on here), if we swap white immigrants for brown one?!

I acknowledge that mass immigration can't go on forever, we are an island with a finite amount of space and resources but just kicking immigrants out in isolation without being part of a wider strategy isn't going to solve our woes. I still think the wealth grab and the defunding of public services that go with it are a much bigger danger to this country than immigration from the EU.

It starts off with www.gov.uk So anyone can have an official looking government web address?

And show me anywhere that I have said those already here should leave? I have said the opposite.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
Seems to be a problem with law enforcement. May talks about modern slavery, but it is very common and not just with EU migrants. The same goes for a lack of minimum wage enforcement. I cannot understand why these things are not top of the list of things to control.

It is enforced. Workers get their money owed and companies get fined. But they need to find out first. And it isn't easy.

Sick Boy · Sep 21, 2017

Grendel said:
How is sending children to private school dodging tax? The funny thing is you'd rather burden the state with additional tax out of jealousy and spite.

??
I didn't say that sending children to private school was dodging tax, it was a completely separate point.

Deflecting away from the point yet again.

Sick Boy · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
Only if the money was used to build millions of homes, build hospitals, train lots of doctors, nurses and surgeons amongst other things.

But no it won't happen. So the millions of homeless keeps going up so we can let more in that many will also be homeless. Why not let them all go to Germany and Luxembourg? Shouldn't they just want a safe place where they can have a good standard of living?

I thought we were talking about EU migrants?

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

Sick Boy said:
I thought we were talking about EU migrants?

Where did I say it wasn't EU migrants?

Juncker says he wants freedom of movement. It makes it cheaper and easier for his fellow Luxembourg people to travel. Merkel is all for it as Germany does very well out of the EU and having the Euro. Yet they don't seem to care about the many millions in the EU that are having a very hard time. And now they want to be able to close borders for up to 4 years at a time. That would be very bad for Italy for instance if it happened and droves of non EU residents continued to go there.

They are making it up as they go along. But it is to their advantage and not to the residents of the EU.

Sick Boy · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
Where did I say it wasn't EU migrants?

Juncker says he wants freedom of movement. It makes it cheaper and easier for his fellow Luxembourg people to travel. Merkel is all for it as Germany does very well out of the EU and having the Euro. Yet they don't seem to care about the many millions in the EU that are having a very hard time. And now they want to be able to close borders for up to 4 years at a time. That would be very bad for Italy for instance if it happened and droves of non EU residents continued to go there.

They are making it up as they go along. But it is to their advantage and not to the residents of the EU.

I agree that refugees should be 'shared' around the EU more, including Britain. Let's not forget that Germany has taken in quite a few

The issue of EU migrants moving from one country to another to work is very much a British issue though that is not shared by other countries.

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
Where did I say it wasn't EU migrants?

Juncker says he wants freedom of movement. It makes it cheaper and easier for his fellow Luxembourg people to travel. Merkel is all for it as Germany does very well out of the EU and having the Euro. Yet they don't seem to care about the many millions in the EU that are having a very hard time. And now they want to be able to close borders for up to 4 years at a time. That would be very bad for Italy for instance if it happened and droves of non EU residents continued to go there.

They are making it up as they go along. But it is to their advantage and not to the residents of the EU.

They don't want to close borders.

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
It starts off with www.gov.uk So anyone can have an official looking government web address?

And show me anywhere that I have said those already here should leave? I have said the opposite.

Different site - Migration Watch UK | An independent and non-political think tank concerned about the scale of immigration into the UK.

so you want an amnesty for those here and a stricter selection policy going forward? What about from outside the EU and in particular the demands from India?

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
Where did I say it wasn't EU migrants?

Juncker says he wants freedom of movement. It makes it cheaper and easier for his fellow Luxembourg people to travel. Merkel is all for it as Germany does very well out of the EU and having the Euro. Yet they don't seem to care about the many millions in the EU that are having a very hard time. And now they want to be able to close borders for up to 4 years at a time. That would be very bad for Italy for instance if it happened and droves of non EU residents continued to go there.

They are making it up as they go along. But it is to their advantage and not to the residents of the EU.

They want to extend the border checks which were not foreseen by Schengen for up up 4 years. These checks are on the Austrian border at the moment and expire in November. Other countries have had "emergency" measures at times. They do not want to close borders.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

Sick Boy said:
I agree that refugees should be 'shared' around the EU more, including Britain. Let's not forget that Germany has taken in quite a few

The issue of EU migrants moving from one country to another to work is very much a British issue though that is not shared by other countries.

You are right. It isn't shared by other countries. They don't want to go to most of them. They want to go to the ones doing well. And that isn't many. Germany and the UK are the ones they want to go to the most. Who can blame them?

The difference is the UK is very small compared to Germany. And Germany is doing very well because of the Euro.

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

clint van damme said:
Different site - Migration Watch UK | An independent and non-political think tank concerned about the scale of immigration into the UK.

so you want an amnesty for those here and a stricter selection policy going forward? What about from outside the EU and in particular the demands from India?

Migration Watch: "However, critics have accused Green’s MigrationWatch UK of failing to be impartial and statistically accurate on the issue of immigration since it was founded by the former ambassador to Saudi Arabia and Syria in 2001.

Jonathan Portes, director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research and former chief economist at the Cabinet Office, has challenged the group’s claims on more than one occasion, including complaints to the Press Complaints Commission over two newspaper articles."

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
You are right. It isn't shared by other countries. They don't want to go to most of them. They want to go to the ones doing well. And that isn't many. Germany and the UK are the ones they want to go to the most. Who can blame them?

The difference is the UK is very small compared to Germany. And Germany is doing very well because of the Euro.

Germany has a higher population. Germany was doing very well before the Euro - and that having absorbed an Eastern European country , the GDR.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
They don't want to close borders.

They want the ability to close borders fir up to 4 years. Austria have closed theirs but it was a shorter time limit. And as you know Germany and France are two of the countries that want it. Germany wants it so it will happen.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

clint van damme said:
Different site - Migration Watch UK | An independent and non-political think tank concerned about the scale of immigration into the UK.

so you want an amnesty for those here and a stricter selection policy going forward? What about from outside the EU and in particular the demands from India?

More independent than the government site that takes their numbers from official figures but wants it to sound better than it is?

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
They want the ability to close borders fir up to 4 years. Austria have closed theirs but it was a shorter time limit. And as you know Germany and France are two of the countries that want it. Germany wants it so it will happen.

They don't want to close borders. They want to extend the present controls by 4 years. The borders are not closed to EU citizens.

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
More independent than the government site that takes their numbers from official figures but wants it to sound better than it is?

It is a posh version of a UKIP site.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
Germany has a higher population. Germany was doing very well before the Euro - and that having absorbed an Eastern European country , the GDR.

And is doing even better now. The Euro is priced on an average of all countries using the Euro. They have the strongest economy. So of course they vastly benefit whilst the weaker ones suffer.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
They don't want to close borders. They want to extend the present controls by 4 years. The borders are not closed to EU citizens.

To 4 years at a time more like. So as I said befire what would happen to Italy if they decided to close theirs stranding those arriving from Africa?

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
It is a posh version of a UKIP site.

Is that the best you can come out with?

So Labour and Tiries are now a posh version of UKIP?

The numbers on there are as accurate as you will get. They include each census and official birth rates. But of course they don't include those illegally here.

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
And is doing even better now. The Euro is priced on an average of all countries using the Euro. They have the strongest economy. So of course they vastly benefit whilst the weaker ones suffer.

The Euro is made up of over 60% of the DM.

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
Is that the best you can come out with?

So Labour and Tiries are now a posh version of UKIP?

The numbers on there are as accurate as you will get. They include each census and official birth rates. But of course they don't include those illegally here.

No, just the site which has been criticised about the accuracy of it's statistics and it's lack of impartiality.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
No, just the site which has been criticised about the accuracy of it's statistics and it's lack of impartiality.

Those who don't like the official numbers like yourself criticise them.

Are you now trying to say that each government alters the numbers on each census and birth rates?

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
To 4 years at a time more like. So as I said befire what would happen to Italy if they decided to close theirs stranding those arriving from Africa?

Don't know, but I think African migration is the bigger problem than Syria or Eastern Europeans. There is so much poverty and there are so many young people that it can only increase. The EU will slowly even out and Syria will end when there is nothing more left to bomb or steal ( or rather the booty has been split ).

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
The Euro is made up of over 60% of the DM.

What does that do for countries like Greece?

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
Those who don't like the official numbers like yourself criticise them.

Are you now trying to say that each government alters the numbers on each census and birth rates?

No, I am trying to say that the site is not impartial and not a government site.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
Don't know, but I think African migration is the bigger problem than Syria or Eastern Europeans. There is so much poverty and there are so many young people that it can only increase. The EU will slowly even out and Syria will end when there is nothing more left to bomb or steal ( or rather the booty has been split ).

Don't you see it as a potential major problem?

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
No, I am trying to say that the site is not impartial and not a government site.

You are wrong. Look at the address. Nobody but the government can use .gov.uk

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
What does that do for countries like Greece?

Ask your neighbour. They are in now and to get out would, at least, initially result in a worse collapse than has been had up til now.

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
Don't you see it as a potential major problem?

Yes, I just said so.

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
You are wrong. Look at the address. Nobody but the government can use .gov.uk

I thought you were on migration watch.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
I thought you were on migration watch.

Check the link that I keep getting told isn't official. It is. It covers each census for a very long time. It covers birth rates. It covers how much and how quickly our population went up since 2001.

Astute · Sep 21, 2017

martcov said:
Yes, I just said so.

So we finally agree on something.

martcov · Sep 21, 2017

Astute said:
So we finally agree on something.

Just the emphasis is different. I see EU immigration as beneficial to a point and it is reciprocal. Non EU immigration- the unskilled and uneducated part - is a potential much greater problem because of the sheer numbers, and there is no reciprocal benefit ( in most cases we can't go there and use their facilities ). The refugees are a different case and hopefully the war will be over soon. For better or worse.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

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