The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (22 Viewers)

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 26, 2020

The EU is at crossroads now that Brexit is actually going ahead and a reality for both the EU and the UK.

Frankly, if Brexit is a success, there are countries that are willing to have their own polls on EU membership. Italy seem to the most likely, but France also has a lot of Eurosceptics too.

Personally, I do believe remaining in the EU was the ‘best deal’ to start with, despite the UK always being a reluctant member of the European project. However, I’m weirdly optimistic about Brexit and genuinely hope it goes well. Hopefully we get some good FTAs to compliment the new UK-EU deal too.

On the issue of Scottish independence, Brexit makes it politically more popular. Yet, ironically, politically impractical to be delivered.

BackRoomRummermill · Dec 26, 2020

Nicola Sturgeon is the only devolved leader who repeatedly states that I don’t want to bring political agend into this , all the time says it ....

no one else does in the whole of the UK ....

make of that what you will. Living in Scotland bot by bit is becoming an experiment for the SNP , i expect RT news to base themselves in Edinburgh, along with Sputnik TV ....

SomersetSB · Dec 26, 2020

This made me chuckle!!

clint van damme · Dec 26, 2020

Mucca Mad Boys said:
The EU is at crossroads now that Brexit is actually going ahead and a reality for both the EU and the UK.

Frankly, if Brexit is a success, there are countries that are willing to have their own polls on EU membership. Italy seem to the most likely, but France also has a lot of Eurosceptics too.

Personally, I do believe remaining in the EU was the ‘best deal’ to start with, despite the UK always being a reluctant member of the European project. However, I’m weirdly optimistic about Brexit and genuinely hope it goes well. Hopefully we get some good FTAs to compliment the new UK-EU deal too.

On the issue of Scottish independence, Brexit makes it politically more popular. Yet, ironically, politically impractical to be delivered.

Michael Gove said now they can level up the UK.
The inference of course is that they couldn't do it in the EU. I suspect that's absolute bollocks but either way he's said it now, they have to own it, if they do it great, if not, let's hope the cap doffers hold them to account for once.

David O'Day · Dec 26, 2020

It’sabatch87 said:
This made me chuckle!!

I know it's the season of good will but you really are a weird and sad man.

Also I would bet you aren't much to look it either.

shmmeee · Dec 26, 2020

So. Anyone worked out a benefit of Brexit yet? Or is it still all about owning the Libs?

Sick Boy · Dec 26, 2020

From what I’ve read it seems that the deal keeps the UK and EU very closely aligned in terms of regulations, which was always going to be inevitable, I guess.

David O'Day · Dec 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
So. Anyone worked out a benefit of Brexit yet? Or is it still all about owning the Libs?

It does seem to be about owning the libs and forreigners

Skybluefaz · Dec 26, 2020

Telegraph going after Johnson re fish. No idea if it's true, but he seems to be a marked man.

Sick Boy · Dec 26, 2020

Skybluefaz said:
View attachment 18017

Telegraph going after Johnson re fish. No idea if it's true, but he seems to be a marked man.

I’d be more concerned about the Services industry than fish.

Grendel · Dec 26, 2020

Skybluefaz said:
View attachment 18017

Telegraph going after Johnson re fish. No idea if it's true, but he seems to be a marked man.

50 50 compromise is generally reported

tisza · Dec 26, 2020

Sick Boy said:
From what I’ve read it seems that the deal keeps the UK and EU very closely aligned in terms of regulations, which was always going to be inevitable, I guess.

Media here reporting it as close alignment but no longer shackled by Brussels bureaucracy and authoritarianism seems ironic due to the paperwork about to be created in order to trade.

tisza · Dec 26, 2020

Skybluefaz said:
View attachment 18017

Telegraph going after Johnson re fish. No idea if it's true, but he seems to be a marked man.

EU going to claim a win in order to make sure it clears EU parliaments and Boris the same for his Parliament etc.

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 26, 2020

Grendel said:
i assume Ted Heath was a dictator and a demagogue?

Don’t think so why?

Grendel · Dec 26, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:
Don’t think so why?

he held a referendum

skybluetony176 · Dec 26, 2020

Grendel said:
50 50 compromise is generally reported

According to who? Not the fishing industry.

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

Boris Johnson ‘sacrificed’ Britain’s fishing industry to get deal with EU, fishermen say

National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations warns of ‘anger and frustration’

www.google.co.uk

Boris Johnson ‘sacrificed’ Britain’s fishing industry to get deal with EU, fishermen say

National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations warns of ‘anger and frustration’

www.google.co.uk

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

chiefdave · Dec 26, 2020

If anyone gets really bored over the next few days here’s some light reading.

The EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement

Brexit deal page

ec.europa.eu

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 26, 2020

clint van damme said:
Michael Gove said now they can level up the UK.
The inference of course is that they couldn't do it in the EU. I suspect that's absolute bollocks but either way he's said it now, they have to own it, if they do it great, if not, let's hope the cap doffers hold them to account for once.

Agreed.

If Brexit goes well, the Tories probably secure another generation in power. Badly, their economic credibility goes out the window for a generation too.

Apparently there is some 50 FTAs in the pipelines, and maybe this can help boost the economy.

But, the risk of cause goes that new scapegoats arising in the kinds of areas that voted Brexit in the first place. Trump picked up votes in areas that cited job things like NAFTA as the reason for job losses in areas like Michigan, Wisconsin, Penn and so on.

Hopefully a new independent trade policy gives us more prosperity.

shmmeee · Dec 26, 2020

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Agreed.

If Brexit goes well, the Tories probably secure another generation in power. Badly, their economic credibility goes out the window for a generation too.

Apparently there is some 50 FTAs in the pipelines, and maybe this can help boost the economy.

But, the risk of cause goes that new scapegoats arising in the kinds of areas that voted Brexit in the first place. Trump picked up votes in areas that cited job things like NAFTA as the reason for job losses in areas like Michigan, Wisconsin, Penn and so on.

Hopefully a new independent trade policy gives us more prosperity.

There’ll be no objective dispassionate assessment of Brexit. We’ve seen that already. Everything is written off as one offs, or shifty foreigners not giving us our due, or going to happen any way.

Whatever happens next half the country will say it was because of Brexit and half won’t, all that’ll change is which half says which.

The fact is we’re talking basic laws of trade here, not some great unknown. We know putting up trade barriers will result in less trade just like we know any other scientific facts. We’re just obliged out of politeness to pretend we don’t know this so we don’t hurt people’s feelings.

Grendel · Dec 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
There’ll be no objective dispassionate assessment of Brexit. We’ve seen that already. Everything is written off as one offs, or shifty foreigners not giving us our due, or going to happen any way.

Whatever happens next half the country will say it was because of Brexit and half won’t, all that’ll change is which half says which.

The fact is we’re talking basic laws of trade here, not some great unknown. We know putting up trade barriers will result in less trade just like we know any other scientific facts. We’re just obliged out of politeness to pretend we don’t know this so we don’t hurt people’s feelings.

in the end unless people’s lives are actually impacted no one will care and it will just be a footnote in history

tisza · Dec 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
There’ll be no objective dispassionate assessment of Brexit. We’ve seen that already. Everything is written off as one offs, or shifty foreigners not giving us our due, or going to happen any way.

Whatever happens next half the country will say it was because of Brexit and half won’t, all that’ll change is which half says which.

The fact is we’re talking basic laws of trade here, not some great unknown. We know putting up trade barriers will result in less trade just like we know any other scientific facts. We’re just obliged out of politeness to pretend we don’t know this so we don’t hurt people’s feelings.

Comes down to whether Brexit will judged solely on trade.
How will they judge the immigration part - can't just be on numbers? Quantity vs quality? Cost to the economy?
How do they tangibly measure the "success or failure" of sovereignty?
Does it ultimately cause Scotland to leave the Union?
What major non-trade related decisions do they want to make that they couldn't under the EU?

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
There’ll be no objective dispassionate assessment of Brexit. We’ve seen that already. Everything is written off as one offs, or shifty foreigners not giving us our due, or going to happen any way.

Whatever happens next half the country will say it was because of Brexit and half won’t, all that’ll change is which half says which.

The fact is we’re talking basic laws of trade here, not some great unknown. We know putting up trade barriers will result in less trade just like we know any other scientific facts. We’re just obliged out of politeness to pretend we don’t know this so we don’t hurt people’s feelings.

From my line of work, both the EU and UK are bringing in simplifications to their import and export processes to mitigate the risks of increased paperwork whilst facilitating trade.

It's not as ideal as complete free trade within the EU, but the argument the Brexiteers are making is the UK can do business globally and have FTAs with more countries than the EU.

The onus is on the Government to deliver on this 'outward looking', Post-Brexit 'global Britain' and in fairness, the FTAs we're negotiating will be purely with our national interests in mind as opposed to the EU and their member state's interests - which can be competing at times.

Ultimately, I'm open minded to see how Brexit goes, and if it goes badly, there's always the option to vote for a party who'll apply to rejoin the EU in their manifesto. I'm sure this will be Lib Dems raison d'être as a political entity for next generation.

Grendel · Dec 26, 2020

tisza said:
Comes down to whether Brexit will judged solely on trade.
How will they judge the immigration part - can't just be on numbers? Quantity vs quality? Cost to the economy?
How do they tangibly measure the "success or failure" of sovereignty?
Does it ultimately cause Scotland to leave the Union?
What major non-trade related decisions do they want to make that they couldn't under the EU?

Brexit has nothing to do with Scotland and the union. It’s the latest excuse from the chancer Sturgeon

skybluetony176 · Dec 26, 2020

tisza said:
Comes down to whether Brexit will judged solely on trade.
How will they judge the immigration part - can't just be on numbers? Quantity vs quality? Cost to the economy?
How do they tangibly measure the "success or failure" of sovereignty?
Does it ultimately cause Scotland to leave the Union?
What major non-trade related decisions do they want to make that they couldn't under the EU?

Northern Ireland will go first and looking at the withdrawal agreement the Tories want it also. Anyway, breaking up the Union was project fear.

tisza · Dec 26, 2020

Grendel said:
Brexit has nothing to do with Scotland and the union. It’s the latest excuse from the chancer Sturgeon

For sure Sturgeon will use it but Scotland was heavily Remain and polls indicate that Brexit could be a factor in how people could vote in a new Leave referendum. Again it comes down to how much concrete information on the consequences of a Leave vote voters would have - EU membership, hard borders, rest of UK trade. (Currently Scotland trade with UK 3 times bigger than EU trade).

Grendel · Dec 26, 2020

tisza said:
For sure Sturgeon will use it but Scotland was heavily Remain and polls indicate that Brexit could be a factor in how people could vote in a new Leave referendum. Again it comes down to how much concrete information on the consequences of a Leave vote voters would have - EU membership, hard borders, rest of UK trade. (Currently Scotland trade with UK 3 times bigger than EU trade).

She already was demanding another referendum even if their was a second referendum on Brexit and it was then decided to remain

Deleted member 4439 · Dec 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
Whatever happens next half the country will say it was because of Brexit and half won’t, all that’ll change is which half says which.

The truth. Just like Thatcherism. Both sides are sincere and ultimate in their beliefs.

Brylowes · Dec 26, 2020

Grendel said:
in the end unless people’s lives are actually impacted no one will care and it will just be a footnote in history

People’s lives ‘as with all politically motivated decisions’ will be impacted, they just won’t realise it.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 26, 2020

Brylowes said:
People’s lives ‘as with all politically motivated decisions’ will be impacted, they just won’t realise it.

If they're not impacted, what's the point?

Grendel · Dec 26, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
If they're not impacted, what's the point?

well then there’s no point being in an expensive members club if there’s no negative impact is there.

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 26, 2020

Grendel said:
he held a referendum

Gove and johnson are charlatans. They know this will negatively impact the country. They will lead the rejoin campaign

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 26, 2020

Grendel said:
well then there’s no point being in an expensive members club if there’s no negative impact is there.

Erm,if there's noaffect either way, you just leave it as it is!

You're claiming there *is* an affect so if you're right... that affect will be noticed now, as we now live in the land of milk and honey, where there's spare pots of cash galore for all manner of things.

Sick Boy · Dec 26, 2020

Brexit Deal Done, Britain Now Scrambles to See How It Will Work (Published 2020)

Britain is finally departing from the European Union, but its formal exit is only the beginning of a high-stakes experiment to unstitch commercial relations across an integrated continent.

www.nytimes.com

That loss is especially painful for Britain, which ran a surplus of £18 billion, or $24 billion, on trade in financial and other services with the European Union in 2019, but a deficit of £97 billion, or $129 billion, on trade in goods.

“The result of the deal is that the European Union retains all of its current advantages in trading, particularly with goods, and the U.K. loses all of its current advantages in the trade for services,” said Tom Kibasi, the former director of the Institute for Public Policy Research, a research institute. “The outcome of this trade negotiation is precisely what happens with most trade deals: The larger party gets what it wants and the smaller party rolls over.”

skybluetony176 · Dec 26, 2020

Fishing industry definitely not happy

PM 'caved in' to EU on fish, says fishing industry chief

National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations says fisheries ‘were sacrificed’ to save trade deal

www.google.co.uk

'Fishing industry has been sacrificed to secure post-Brexit deal' | ITV News

Barrie Deas, chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations said, the UK has 'surrendered' to the EU. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

Redirect Notice

The fisherman’s verdict on Brexit: Boris Johnson sold us down the river – again

New trade deal leaves trawlers ‘still tied to the EU’s apron strings’, say industry chiefs

www.google.co.uk

Boris sold out seems to be the general perception in the industry.

Grendel · Dec 26, 2020

Sick Boy said:
Brexit Deal Done, Britain Now Scrambles to See How It Will Work (Published 2020)

Britain is finally departing from the European Union, but its formal exit is only the beginning of a high-stakes experiment to unstitch commercial relations across an integrated continent.

www.nytimes.com

That loss is especially painful for Britain, which ran a surplus of £18 billion, or $24 billion, on trade in financial and other services with the European Union in 2019, but a deficit of £97 billion, or $129 billion, on trade in goods.

“The result of the deal is that the European Union retains all of its current advantages in trading, particularly with goods, and the U.K. loses all of its current advantages in the trade for services,” said Tom Kibasi, the former director of the Institute for Public Policy Research, a research institute. “The outcome of this trade negotiation is precisely what happens with most trade deals: The larger party gets what it wants and the smaller party rolls over.”

Nice try - hardly a qualified view

Tom Kibasi Archives

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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (22 Viewers)

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