The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (26 Viewers)

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 16, 2020

Astute said:
Not at all. But look on this thread. Look in the Corbyn thread. You have mainly hard left ideals. They are not appreciated by the vast majority but you don't seem to notice.

I have a couple of good friends who are teachers. One is the nicest person you could ever meet. But her political thoughts are similar to yours although it has been changing recently.

I don’t think I have hard left ideals, I mostly want more things that are common in Scandinavia and Central Europe. When you look at the polling of the main policies I support, they are broadly popular nationally. I think I’ve also accepted long ago that how I want things to be is not mainstream in this country, the voting in of successively worse Conservative governments and support for Brexit has made me feel a bit alienated to an extent.

But just because I’m in the minority doesn’t mean I should stop arguing for what I think is right. After all, opinions can change.

skybluetony176 · Dec 16, 2020

Mucca Mad Boys said:
The UK argument is that they want a deal similar to Canada, with 0-tariffs and 0-quotas.

The EU rebuttal is that because they trade with the UK more than Canada, they want more market alignment from Britain than it does from Canada.

The EU has a point. Similarly, from a UK perspective, it’s a valid point to say there’s a double standard being applied.

There’s also holes in the Canada deal, most notably meat, fish and other food stuff which are our biggest exports and indeed imports to and from the EU. To call it a Canada type deal is a lazy trope by the government. Canada also doesn’t have a land border with the EU or the luxury of RORO ferries where there isn’t a land border.

shmmeee · Dec 16, 2020

Astute said:
Disingenuous argument?

So we are less important than the rest of the world but our importance because of our location is important when you need it to be?

What?

We are less valuable as an economy than larger economies, yes. And we are more important in terms of types of trade with the EU because of our location.

Google “gravity model of trade”. Big economies on your doorstep are always more of a competitive threat than similar sized economies far away.

Heres Barnier to explain is as well:Michel Barnier: UK can't have Canada trade deal with EU

And again. All of this is irrelevant because we knew this is how the EU would act and should’ve factored it into any decision on Brexit instead of whining about it at the last minute. Spoiler alert: trade talks with the US will go in a similar manner.

shmmeee · Dec 16, 2020

lEfT wInG pOlIcY iSnT pOpUlAr

Grendel · Dec 16, 2020

shmmeee said:
lEfT wInG pOlIcY iSnT pOpUlAr

View attachment 17925

Well an offer of a 1 day working week on full pay is popular

skybluetony176 · Dec 16, 2020

Grendel said:
Well an offer of a 1 day working week on full pay is popular

Who had that in their manifesto?

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 16, 2020

Grendel said:
Well an offer of a 1 day working week on full pay is popular

Always a pleasure shooting the breeze G

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 16, 2020

clint van damme said:
Who said trade deals should be fair?
By their very nature they're not for all sorts of reasons.

shmmeee said:
I mean, we aren’t Canada. We’re sat just off the coast of Europe so it’s a bit of a disingenuous argument, but again you’re missing the point. The EU could ask we paint all our cats green if they want, we’ll only have to accept it if they’ve got something f we want more than non green cats.

All this cry whining about “fairness” is just childish in trade negotiations. We knew how big the EU were, we knew they would likely want to make it hard for us to maintain the strength of their Union. We took the decision to Brexit knowing all of this but with the claim that it wouldn’t matter because we were going to pretend they needed us more “German cars” etc etc etc.

Sorry this is Sisu all over again. You can’t cry that third parties aren’t looking out for you, you need to manage and predict reactions to your behaviour. Other independent actors exist.

There we go, we don't have to accept their demands, just as they don't have to accept ours - hence, we're on the precipice of leaving without a deal.

That doesn't detract that it's in everyone's best interest to agree a deal, but both sides have to agree something they believe to be mutually beneficial.

Should the UK sign up to a ‘bad deal?’ Common sense dictates, no. But, if the Withdrawal Agreement is anything to go by, then they probably will.

Ironically, even if there was going to be a deal, there’s barely any time for industry to catch up and implement the changes.

Astute · Dec 16, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I don’t think I have hard left ideals, I mostly want more things that are common in Scandinavia and Central Europe. When you look at the polling of the main policies I support, they are broadly popular nationally. I think I’ve also accepted long ago that how I want things to be is not mainstream in this country, the voting in of successively worse Conservative governments and support for Brexit has made me feel a bit alienated to an extent.

But just because I’m in the minority doesn’t mean I should stop arguing for what I think is right. After all, opinions can change.

Of course opinions can and will change. But you considered anyone who could see fault with Corbyn as the antichrist. You just couldn't see him failing. You couldn't see how the voting public saw him.

I am 100% Labour. But I have come to learn a hard left will never get voted in. People would prefer hard right to hard left. We need a middle ground. Nit as far to the right as Bliar though. Him and Briwn have shafted pensions forever doing the Tories job for them.

Astute · Dec 16, 2020

shmmeee said:
What?

We are less valuable as an economy than larger economies, yes. And we are more important in terms of types of trade with the EU because of our location.

Google “gravity model of trade”. Big economies on your doorstep are always more of a competitive threat than similar sized economies far away.

Heres Barnier to explain is as well:Michel Barnier: UK can't have Canada trade deal with EU

And again. All of this is irrelevant because we knew this is how the EU would act and should’ve factored it into any decision on Brexit instead of whining about it at the last minute. Spoiler alert: trade talks with the US will go in a similar manner.

And how I said they would act until the very last minute. But you still try and make out the teachers are right and everyone else is wrong.

Astute · Dec 16, 2020

Mucca Mad Boys said:
There we go, we don't have to accept their demands, just as they don't have to accept ours - hence, we're on the precipice of leaving without a deal.

That doesn't detract that it's in everyone's best interest to agree a deal, but both sides have to agree something they believe to be mutually beneficial.

Should the UK sign up to a ‘bad deal?’ Common sense dictates, no. But, if the Withdrawal Agreement is anything to go by, then they probably will.

Ironically, even if there was going to be a deal, there’s barely any time for industry to catch up and implement the changes.

Stop talking sense. It isn't welcome by most on this thread.

Astute · Dec 16, 2020

shmmeee said:
lEfT wInG pOlIcY iSnT pOpUlAr

View attachment 17925

Is it worth waiting for you to come up with the rest of the last manifesto?

Of course not.

tisza · Dec 16, 2020

Astute said:
I also have shares all over the world....but mainly in America. I have a good idea of what goes on with these companies but this is all. Just like yourself.

OK. I will humor you. So how much do farmers know what they will make presently.

As far as the EU land goes we'll be receiving similar level of subsidies but a restructure is coming again with a refocus on how funds are allocated. There will also be COVID recovery money as well. But obviously with Hungary & Poland blocking the EU budget until this week again the details on a country by country basis will be finalized by end of Jamuary.

UK direct subsidy income drops immediately next year from 5 and 25% depending on the amount you currently receive. There is no information about the speed of further reductions 2022 onwards just that basic payments will be gone by 2027. This is going to be replaced by schemes that focus more on the environmental management of the land but again details not released yet. But few of the proposed schemes are focused on improving output atm. Again British Govt agricultural policy is going to be influenced by what deal (or No Deal) they leave the EU with.

ATM agriculture way down the list of Tory priorities. But a No Deal could TIFF incomes falling from 5 billion to anywhere between 2 and 3 billion.

I'm glad you feel able to humour someone working in the industry

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2020

Mucca Mad Boys said:
There we go, we don't have to accept their demands, just as they don't have to accept ours - hence, we're on the precipice of leaving without a deal.

That doesn't detract that it's in everyone's best interest to agree a deal, but both sides have to agree something they believe to be mutually beneficial.

Should the UK sign up to a ‘bad deal?’ Common sense dictates, no. But, if the Withdrawal Agreement is anything to go by, then they probably will.

Ironically, even if there was going to be a deal, there’s barely any time for industry to catch up and implement the changes.

the problem is trade deals with one partner are also potentially governed by deals which are in place with another.
There may be prohibitive conditions in other FTAs.
It's something we may find hindering a lot of our negotiations going forward.

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 16, 2020

Astute said:
Of course opinions can and will change. But you considered anyone who could see fault with Corbyn as the antichrist. You just couldn't see him failing. You couldn't see how the voting public saw him.

I am 100% Labour. But I have come to learn a hard left will never get voted in. People would prefer hard right to hard left. We need a middle ground. Nit as far to the right as Bliar though. Him and Briwn have shafted pensions forever doing the Tories job for them.

I predicted him failing for months in advance of the election that he eventually agreed to.

Ian1779 · Dec 16, 2020

Astute said:
Of course opinions can and will change. But you considered anyone who could see fault with Corbyn as the antichrist. You just couldn't see him failing. You couldn't see how the voting public saw him.

I am 100% Labour. But I have come to learn a hard left will never get voted in. People would prefer hard right to hard left. We need a middle ground. Nit as far to the right as Bliar though. Him and Briwn have shafted pensions forever doing the Tories job for them.

To be fair to BSB he was more than vocal in Corbyn’s limitations. I am happy to admit I was blind to it, because I thought that people could see that policies that would help them have a better lives would be more important than empty rhetoric... sadly incredibly naive on my part.

You also ignore the fact that Corbyn or his manifesto are NOT hard left. It’s the line has been dragged so far right.

tisza · Dec 16, 2020

Ian1779 said:
You also ignore the fact that Corbyn or his manifesto are NOT hard left. It’s the line has been dragged so far right.

Like so many Republicans who believe Biden is a Communist -God knows how they would have reacted to a Sanders win.
There's this consistent theme in UK & US that any movement to the left is far more extreme and destructive than parallel moves to the right.
Republican party consistently moving further to the right. Not just Trump but look at most of the candidates he beat for the nomination.

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 16, 2020

shmmeee said:
I mean, we aren’t Canada. We’re sat just off the coast of Europe so it’s a bit of a disingenuous argument, but again you’re missing the point. The EU could ask we paint all our cats green if they want, we’ll only have to accept it if they’ve got something f we want more than non green cats.

All this cry whining about “fairness” is just childish in trade negotiations. We knew how big the EU were, we knew they would likely want to make it hard for us to maintain the strength of their Union. We took the decision to Brexit knowing all of this but with the claim that it wouldn’t matter because we were going to pretend they needed us more “German cars” etc etc etc.

Sorry this is Sisu all over again. You can’t cry that third parties aren’t looking out for you, you need to manage and predict reactions to your behaviour. Other independent actors exist.

Yep that’s right

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 16, 2020

tisza said:
Like so many Republicans who believe Biden is a Communist -God knows how they would have reacted to a Sanders win.
There's this consistent theme in UK & US that any movement to the left is far more extreme and destructive than parallel moves to the right.
Republican party consistently moving further to the right. Not just Trump but look at most of the candidates he beat for the nomination.

It's funny with Bernie, the Democrat will be called an insane communist whoever it is, so you may as well nominate the social democrat

Astute · Dec 17, 2020

tisza said:
As far as the EU land goes we'll be receiving similar level of subsidies but a restructure is coming again with a refocus on how funds are allocated. There will also be COVID recovery money as well. But obviously with Hungary & Poland blocking the EU budget until this week again the details on a country by country basis will be finalized by end of Jamuary.

UK direct subsidy income drops immediately next year from 5 and 25% depending on the amount you currently receive. There is no information about the speed of further reductions 2022 onwards just that basic payments will be gone by 2027. This is going to be replaced by schemes that focus more on the environmental management of the land but again details not released yet. But few of the proposed schemes are focused on improving output atm. Again British Govt agricultural policy is going to be influenced by what deal (or No Deal) they leave the EU with.

ATM agriculture way down the list of Tory priorities. But a No Deal could TIFF incomes falling from 5 billion to anywhere between 2 and 3 billion.

I'm glad you feel able to humour someone working in the industry

Yes humour me.

How much of these subsidies go to rich landowners and how much to the farmers themselves.

Astute · Dec 17, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I predicted him failing for months in advance of the election that he eventually agreed to.

You spent years backing him and only stopped predicting a Corbyn win right before the second election

Astute · Dec 17, 2020

Ian1779 said:
To be fair to BSB he was more than vocal in Corbyn’s limitations. I am happy to admit I was blind to it, because I thought that people could see that policies that would help them have a better lives would be more important than empty rhetoric... sadly incredibly naive on my part.

You also ignore the fact that Corbyn or his manifesto are NOT hard left. It’s the line has been dragged so far right.

Sounds like you chose what you wanted to hear and ignored the rest.

So what other than free Internet for all that would have cost us billions would have done enough?

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 17, 2020

tisza said:
Like so many Republicans who believe Biden is a Communist -God knows how they would have reacted to a Sanders win.
There's this consistent theme in UK & US that any movement to the left is far more extreme and destructive than parallel moves to the right.
Republican party consistently moving further to the right. Not just Trump but look at most of the candidates he beat for the nomination.

Trump was the moderate one of the front runners - that's a scary thought, really.

shmmeee · Dec 17, 2020

Astute said:
Sounds like you chose what you wanted to hear and ignored the rest.

So what other than free Internet for all that would have cost us billions would have done enough?

Not sure how you’ve worked out nationalis broadband would cost billions but OK.

National education service was good, green new deal was vital, reforms to companies to make them more like the German model, free education, funding public services, prison reform, transport.

The 2017 manifesto was pretty much perfect TBH.

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 17, 2020

Astute said:
You spent years backing him and only stopped predicting a Corbyn win right before the second election

I thought left wing populism was the answer up to 2018. Then in 2019 it fell off a cliff and I spent months criticising him mostly over his Brexit stance. Seeing as he got over 40% of the vote in 2017 I guess quite a few others agreed

Ian1779 · Dec 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
Not sure how you’ve worked out nationalis broadband would cost billions but OK.

National education service was good, green new deal was vital, reforms to companies to make them more like the German model, free education, funding public services, prison reform, transport.

The 2017 manifesto was pretty much perfect TBH.

This is what I want Starmer to run with - if he does I will vote for him for sure.

tisza · Dec 17, 2020

Astute said:
Yes humour me.

How much of these subsidies go to rich landowners and how much to the farmers themselves.

Basic economics the more land you own the more income you receive. It's a flat fee. Same in all the EU countries I've worked with.
Rich landowners don't get more per hectare.
If they farm the land they get the subsidy. If they rent the land to other farmers they get (in very simple terms) either a small rent plus the subsidy or a larger rent and no subsidy.
The other part of the CAP subsidy for improvements,welfare, environmental schemes basically goes to those implementing the schemes.

shmmeee · Dec 17, 2020

Fucking out in the open brazen don’t give a shit any more. Farage telling you how to keep your money safe when Brexit goes wrong. Couldn’t make it up. The guy should be behind bars. Fucking conman.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 17, 2020

Astute said:
Untold billions of EU money goes to the rich who own land for not growing what they were not going to grow.

Maybe those on here that attack the rich will finally have a go at those creaming off taxpayers money gifted to them in EU payments.

So by your own admission the rich landowners then.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 17, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
Not sure I can quite agree with that shmmeee (which will surprise many no doubt )

Looks like our agricultural policy is due to be more balanced and environmentally friendly than CAP in future though.

Environment to benefit from ‘biggest farming shake-up in 50 years’

£1.6bn subsidies for farming land in England to end, with funds going to improve nature

www.google.co.uk

As I alluded to CAP has never sat quite right with me. Not sure of the details about previous attempts to reform (can’t imagine France would’ve supported, or possibly Germany) but whilst it’s original intentions were sensible, it feels outdated in some aspects and it’s crazy to think that’s where 30-40% of the total EU budget goes.

You do realise that that scheme is paying rich landowners to not farm the land and basically leaving it to go wild. Literally money for doing nothing. It's a similar scheme using the cover of the environment. Much of the unused farmland under the CAP was utilised in this manner as well.

shmmeee · Dec 17, 2020

Astute said:
Are you trying to make out I am happy about Brexit?

Just spotted this.

Sorry but this is ridiculous. You constantly avoid any challenge to your ideas by picking up on tiny perceived slights instead of addressing the evidence put in front of you. Then, with more projection than a CinePlex, you accuse others of twisting your words and failing to see the truth.

Here, you said:

A big thing frequently ignored.

And frequently through choice. Untold billions of EU money goes to the rich who own land for not growing what they were not going to grow. It is to keep the price of food artificially high. We will be able to buy from elsewhere after leaving and for a lower price. The problem is it could cause a glut of certain foodstuffs in Europe. Prices will crash. Farmers will be affected but not those raking in the billions for doing nothing.

Maybe those on here that attack the rich will finally have a go at those creaming off taxpayers money gifted to them in EU payments.

The implication being that those who are against Brexit are hypocrites because when the EU is giving money to the rich we say nothing.

I then post an article showing that the reason those landowners get silly money isn’t because of the EU, but because the U.K. government has decided to not apply a ceiling in England like they have in the other U.K. countries.

Furthermore that article shows that the reason CAP hasn’t been reformed how you would like is that the U.K. has been obstructing said reforms.

So, to sum up: it’s not hypocritical to be against Brexit and CAP payments to the undeserving because it was a U.K. government decision to enact those payments and prevent reform. Post Brexit we will still have that government with all the same lobbying and old boys networks that lead to our existing policy of giving lots of money to rich landowners.

Equally I could link you to decades of activism from the left on land reform and show how the right has fought against this both in parliament and the media (“Labour’s garden tax” anyone?). However let’s stick with that point and that article, actually answer the issue instead of crying off about it.

How does Brexit help the issue of large landowners having a disproportionate sway over U.K. legislature and general policy? Furthermore, how exactly is someone who is anti Brexit also anti CAP reform?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 17, 2020

I'm starting to wish we'd just gone no deal immediately at the end of the first transtition period because at least it'd have shown what a shit outcome it'd be for everyone and it'd get all of them to agree a deal.

Instead we've had years going round in circles and it's going to take it actually happening for someone to pull their finger out of their arse and actually realise something needs doing rather than treating it like some sort of game of one-upmanship

Astute · Dec 17, 2020

shmmeee said:
Not sure how you’ve worked out nationalis broadband would cost billions but OK.

National education service was good, green new deal was vital, reforms to companies to make them more like the German model, free education, funding public services, prison reform, transport.

The 2017 manifesto was pretty much perfect TBH.

So you have now forgotten how much it was going to cost.

What a surprise.

Is the guardian good enough to quote or do you want it from a far left source?

How feasible is Labour's free broadband plan and part-nationalisation of BT?

UK lags behind other countries over full fibre but the election pledge raises many questions

www.theguardian.com

Astute · Dec 17, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I thought left wing populism was the answer up to 2018. Then in 2019 it fell off a cliff and I spent months criticising him mostly over his Brexit stance. Seeing as he got over 40% of the vote in 2017 I guess quite a few others agreed

But if you had followed your head and not your heart you would have seen it coming.

Astute · Dec 17, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
So by your own admission the rich landowners then.

What do you mean by my own admission?

Shows you only ever read what you want to. I have constantly mentioned it for years. Try asking those who always try and pick fault with anything I say even if they agree with me.

Good chance they won't reply though.

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