The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (33 Viewers)

Astute · Dec 14, 2020

clint van damme said:
I'd agree with 5hat but given.it was voted for I'm really struggling to see the justification for the disproportionate focus on a small industry.

As Stupot said looks like there's been a concession.offered so fingers crossed we get a deal sorted.

As you will most probably remember I have said all along it will either be a last minute deal or we will remain tied to the EU in some way. Can't see us leaving without a deal and having no ties.

There will be so called concessions on both sides. There is too much to lose for everyone however much everything is downplayed. Whole communities rely on some sort of result.

Maybe UK tied to EU on level playing field but threat of court removed. Fishing to remain the same whilst talks continue into next year or something like a 3 to 5 year agreement made.

But whatever happens it will be put as though both sides won by their respective supporters.

Astute · Dec 14, 2020

shmmeee said:
You’re missing the point. You’re obsessed with “what the EU wants”, this is a trade negotiation. They can want the moon on a stick if they like, what matters is what we want and what we’re willing to give up.

They can afford to lose access to British waters if they don’t trash their single market because on balance the single market is worth more. We can’t afford to trash out services industry for fish.

So once all the bluster is out the way the face will remain that we need access more than they need fish. Especially because if we can’t provide services to the EU then EU service providers will take our place. But we’ll still need to buy in the fish we eat because it doesn’t swim off our coast.

This in a nutshell is why Brexit is so harebrained economically. We’re going to get kicked around by every major trading partner. And to even survive will have to give up a lot more “sovereignty” than we supposedly gain by leaving.

Are you saying we should ignore what the EU wants?

Here we go again. So where do our fish come from that we eat? If not from UK water what species of fish are you on about?

How about stop your rants and try reasoning. Maybe you might notice that we are singing the same hymn but are just on a different page.

And yes it does have everything to do with what the EU wants. Just like it has everything to do with what the UK wants. If it wasn't there wouldn't be a problem.

Astute · Dec 14, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
Oh, and the reason so much of the British quota is in foreign hands is because the U.K. sovereign government sold it to them. Another reason why fishing is such a brexit red herring.

Close but no cigar.

Our fishermen were not allowed to fish for a few years. When skint they ended up selling out. Once they sold out fishing was allowed again.

Astute · Dec 14, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
Fishing has to be the most overplayed hand by leave.

Is it?

If it is why does the EU put so much importance to it?

wingy · Dec 14, 2020

Astute said:
Close but no cigar.

Our fishermen were not allowed to fish for a few years. When skint they ended up selling out. Once they sold out fishing was allowed again.

Well there would have been bugger all to catch Astute .

wingy · Dec 14, 2020

wingy said:
Well there would have been bugger all to catch Astute .

Edit:+ one thing Gove says we will emulate on leaving.

skybluetony176 · Dec 14, 2020

Astute said:
Is it?

If it is why does the EU put so much importance to it?

Because they hold all the cards.

skybluetony176 · Dec 14, 2020

Astute said:
Close but no cigar.

Our fishermen were not allowed to fish for a few years. When skint they ended up selling out. Once they sold out fishing was allowed again.

So when was this “few years”?

CCFCSteve · Dec 14, 2020

shmmeee said:
You’re missing the point. You’re obsessed with “what the EU wants”, this is a trade negotiation. They can want the moon on a stick if they like, what matters is what we want and what we’re willing to give up.

They can afford to lose access to British waters if they don’t trash their single market because on balance the single market is worth more. We can’t afford to trash out services industry for fish.

So once all the bluster is out the way the face will remain that we need access more than they need fish. Especially because if we can’t provide services to the EU then EU service providers will take our place. But we’ll still need to buy in the fish we eat because it doesn’t swim off our coast.

This in a nutshell is why Brexit is so harebrained economically. We’re going to get kicked around by every major trading partner. And to even survive will have to give up a lot more “sovereignty” than we supposedly gain by leaving.

I agree with some of the above but why would we be kicked around by most nations ? Most have/will sign up to carry over of EU trade agreements. It all comes down to whether countries or blocs want free trade or be protectionist, it will then depend on whether we import more from or export more to that nation or bloc.

The EUs conduct towards us is very different to standard trade talks, on a trade only basis its counter intuitive. We have a net trade deficit with the EU so they should want a deal with us to save EU companies having to pay more in tariffs than they would receive from ours. There are various other matters at play though (which have been discussed to death).

BodicoteSkyBlue · Dec 14, 2020

clint van damme said:
He's going to let Merkel stick an apple in his mouth and ride round on him like a domesticated pig?

Sounds like a standard night out for the Bullingdon Boys

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 14, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
I agree with some of the above but why would we be kicked around by most nations ? Most have/will sign up to carry over of EU trade agreements. It all comes down to whether countries or blocs want free trade or be protectionist, it will then depend on whether we import more from or export more to that nation or bloc.

The EUs conduct towards us is very different to standard trade talks, on a trade only basis its counter intuitive. We have a net trade deficit with the EU so they should want a deal with us to save EU companies having to pay more in tariffs than they would receive from ours. There are various other matters at play though (which have been discussed to death).

But if the aim is to just maintain the same agreement as under the EU what was the point in spending all this time and money leaving to end up exactly where we were? Except this time we'd be negotiating with a much smaller market available to those trade partners. So why agree the same deal with us as they can get from a massive trading bloc next door worth a lot more to them? They're going to want better terms to make it worth their while.

chiefdave · Dec 14, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
But if the aim is to just maintain the same agreement as under the EU what was the point in spending all this time and money leaving to end up exactly where we were?

This is one of the most frustrating things to me. The Brexit we were sold was one where we'd have so much money we wouldn't know what to do with it as we weren't subsidising the EU and people would be queuing up to do deals on much better terms than we had now we were free of EU interference.

That's been shifted to we might possibly see a benefit in 50 years time and celebrating doing deals to replicate EU terms with countries like North Macedonia.

To me thats a huge difference but somehow the majority of people who voted for leave believe they are getting what they were promised.

CCFCSteve · Dec 14, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
But if the aim is to just maintain the same agreement as under the EU what was the point in spending all this time and money leaving to end up exactly where we were? Except this time we'd be negotiating with a much smaller market available to those trade partners. So why agree the same deal with us as they can get from a massive trading bloc next door worth a lot more to them? They're going to want better terms to make it worth their while.

In terms of us, I think the aim is to try to have pretty wide ranging free trade agreements (whether the EU previously had one with the other country previously or not). We’re just rolling over current ones to start with (with maybe a few tweaks) I’d imagine as it’s simple/quick and minimise disruption. We’ve only been able to sign up to new trade agreements since the start of the year.

In terms of other countries positions you might be right. If we are exporting more to them than vice versa (ie US) will they want a wide ranging free trade agreement with us ? They might prefer to protect certain sectors in the their country. Depends on whether our companies compete with theirs or fill a gap I guess. Every country will be different.

On a basic level, I don’t really like/agree with protectionism as ultimately consumers pay more and I’m no expert but from what I’ve read it’s usually the poorer/developing nations that suffer. It’s why Ive never been able to get fully comfortable with the common agricultural policy either.

CCFCSteve · Dec 14, 2020

chiefdave said:
This is one of the most frustrating things to me. The Brexit we were sold was one where we'd have so much money we wouldn't know what to do with it as we weren't subsidising the EU and people would be queuing up to do deals on much better terms than we had now we were free of EU interference.

That's been shifted to we might possibly see a benefit in 50 years time and celebrating doing deals to replicate EU terms with countries like North Macedonia.

To me thats a huge difference but somehow the majority of people who voted for leave believe they are getting what they were promised.

Brexits a complex subject though Dave and there are a variety/range of reasons people voted to leave. It’s also why whatever is delivered isn’t going to please everyone, even on the Leave side.

skybluetony176 · Dec 14, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
Brexits a complex subject though Dave and there are a variety/range of reasons people voted to leave. It’s also why whatever is delivered isn’t going to please everyone, even on the Leave side.

It ain’t going to please anyone in the leave side. Nothing about the campaign is deliverable.

clint van damme · Dec 15, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
Brexits a complex subject though Dave and there are a variety/range of reasons people voted to leave. It’s also why whatever is delivered isn’t going to please everyone, even on the Leave side.

they know what they voted for - apparently.

shmmeee · Dec 15, 2020

You can’t like “have a reason” for Brexit maaaan. It’s a complex and curious butterfly, the gleam in a child’s eye, a stray hair on a military man’s whiskers, the vibrational energy of a man with an enlarged prostate. In a way we’re all Brexit broseph. Brexit is the friends we make along the waaaaay.

tisza · Dec 15, 2020

clint van damme said:
they know what they voted for - apparently.

Then they're going to be disappointed.
Unless a deal is along the lines EU wants then they are going to struggle to get it past 27 Parliaments before Dec 31st.
Johnson knows the deal - just leaving as late as possible to avoid domestic grief. And having "loaded" the Tory party with Brexiteers for the last election going to face a backlash from within his own party.

skybluetony176 · Dec 15, 2020

tisza said:
Then they're going to be disappointed.
Unless a deal is along the lines EU wants then they are going to struggle to get it past 27 Parliaments before Dec 31st.
Johnson knows the deal - just leaving as late as possible to avoid domestic grief. And having "loaded" the Tory party with Brexiteers for the last election going to face a backlash from within his own party.

Even then there’s a split in the party. He has the Brexit cult saying unless it’s a no deal Boris’ position is untenable and he also has MP’s now coming forward, holding him to his election pledges and saying if he doesn’t get a deal his position is untenable. Basically his lies and duplicity are coming home to roost.

Astute · Dec 15, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
It’s why Ive never been able to get fully comfortable with the common agricultural policy either.

A big thing frequently ignored.

And frequently through choice. Untold billions of EU money goes to the rich who own land for not growing what they were not going to grow. It is to keep the price of food artificially high. We will be able to buy from elsewhere after leaving and for a lower price. The problem is it could cause a glut of certain foodstuffs in Europe. Prices will crash. Farmers will be affected but not those raking in the billions for doing nothing.

Maybe those on here that attack the rich will finally have a go at those creaming off taxpayers money gifted to them in EU payments.

skybluetony176 · Dec 15, 2020

Straight talk from an Aussie

Everything I’ve read says India does see Brexit as an opportunity. An opportunity to finally get the FTA with the EU over the line that we kept voting against. I don’t think they’re in a rush to get one done with the U.K..

chiefdave · Dec 15, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
Everything I’ve read says India does see Brexit as an opportunity. An opportunity to finally get the FTA with the EU over the line that we kept voting against. I don’t think they’re in a rush to get one done with the U.K..

Haven't they already said that any FTA with the UK will be reliant on us agreeing to a big relaxation of immigration rules for Indians wanting to move over here?

skybluetony176 · Dec 15, 2020

chiefdave said:
Haven't they already said that any FTA with the UK will be reliant on us agreeing to a big relaxation of immigration rules for Indians wanting to move over here?

Yep. Which coincidentally is also the reason we kept blocking an EU/India trade deal when we had a say.

shmmeee · Dec 15, 2020

Astute said:
A big thing frequently ignored.

And frequently through choice. Untold billions of EU money goes to the rich who own land for not growing what they were not going to grow. It is to keep the price of food artificially high. We will be able to buy from elsewhere after leaving and for a lower price. The problem is it could cause a glut of certain foodstuffs in Europe. Prices will crash. Farmers will be affected but not those raking in the billions for doing nothing.

Maybe those on here that attack the rich will finally have a go at those creaming off taxpayers money gifted to them in EU payments.

hmmmmm

UK ‘consistently waters down’ reforms of EU farming subsidies

European commission says government chooses not to apply CAP payment ceiling to large landowners in England

www.theguardian.com

And literally no lefties are for more money for rich landowners. Try harder.

Astute · Dec 15, 2020

shmmeee said:
hmmmmm

UK ‘consistently waters down’ reforms of EU farming subsidies

European commission says government chooses not to apply CAP payment ceiling to large landowners in England

www.theguardian.com

And literally no lefties are for more money for rich landowners. Try harder.

Try harder on what?

This thread has been constant on having a go at the rich. That is until they get money off the EU for doing nothing.

chiefdave · Dec 15, 2020

Astute said:
This thread has been constant on having a go at the rich. That is until they get money off the EU for doing nothing.

Appreciate its a long thread, 1402 pages and counting, but I don't recall people saying it was a good thing for the rich to receive money off the EU for doing nothing. What was the context?

Astute · Dec 15, 2020

chiefdave said:
Appreciate its a long thread, 1402 pages and counting, but I don't recall people saying it was a good thing for the rich to receive money off the EU for doing nothing. What was the context?

Nice attempt at twisting my words.

As you know the rich have always been a target on this thread. But never a target by those who would normally have a go at the rich for anything if it concerns the EU.

And if you want to ask who....... most probably either a school teacher, ex school teacher or a partner who is a school teacher. You would think the majority on SBT are in this group if you only read this thread.

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 15, 2020

Astute said:
Nice attempt at twisting my words.

As you know the rich have always been a target on this thread. But never a target by those who would normally have a go at the rich for anything if it concerns the EU.

And if you want to ask who....... most probably either a school teacher, ex school teacher or a partner who is a school teacher. You would think the majority on SBT are in this group if you only read this thread.

You aren’t a fan of the rich either from what I recall.

Astute · Dec 15, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
You aren’t a fan of the rich either from what I recall.

No I am not. That is unless they use their money to help the needy and also pay their tax. Otherwise I will take a swipe at them.

There is no need for greed.

The EU money that goes to landowners should go to those who need it and not the owners of the land.

shmmeee · Dec 15, 2020

Astute said:
No I am not. That is unless they use their money to help the needy and also pay their tax. Otherwise I will take a swipe at them.

There is no need for greed.

The EU money that goes to landowners should go to those who need it and not the owners of the land.

And literally no one is disagreeing with you. However as the article I posted states the reason CAP hasn’t been reformed is because the Brits didn’t want it reformed and didn’t enact the reforms they could.

So please explain how exactly Brexit will help, considering those same landowners are now infinitely more powerful.

Brexit is a ploy by the rich, for the rich, enabled by people who don’t understand what the EU is or does.

Astute · Dec 15, 2020

shmmeee said:
And literally no one is disagreeing with you. However as the article I posted states the reason CAP hasn’t been reformed is because the Brits didn’t want it reformed and didn’t enact the reforms they could.

So please explain how exactly Brexit will help, considering those same landowners are now infinitely more powerful.

Brexit is a ploy by the rich, for the rich, enabled by people who don’t understand what the EU is or does.

Are you trying to make out I am happy about Brexit?

fernandopartridge · Dec 15, 2020

shmmeee said:
And literally no one is disagreeing with you. However as the article I posted states the reason CAP hasn’t been reformed is because the Brits didn’t want it reformed and didn’t enact the reforms they could.

So please explain how exactly Brexit will help, considering those same landowners are now infinitely more powerful.

Brexit is a ploy by the rich, for the rich, enabled by people who don’t understand what the EU is or does.

The CAP works brilliantly for Britain's landed gentry, they get a subsidy for doing no farming at all. It was one of the first / only things the government promised to replicate wasn't it?

Grendel · Dec 15, 2020

Westminster swarming with rumours a deal is agreed

CCFCSteve · Dec 15, 2020

shmmeee said:
And literally no one is disagreeing with you. However as the article I posted states the reason CAP hasn’t been reformed is because the Brits didn’t want it reformed and didn’t enact the reforms they could.

So please explain how exactly Brexit will help, considering those same landowners are now infinitely more powerful.

Brexit is a ploy by the rich, for the rich, enabled by people who don’t understand what the EU is or does.

Not sure I can quite agree with that shmmeee (which will surprise many no doubt )

Looks like our agricultural policy is due to be more balanced and environmentally friendly than CAP in future though.

Environment to benefit from ‘biggest farming shake-up in 50 years’

£1.6bn subsidies for farming land in England to end, with funds going to improve nature

www.google.co.uk

As I alluded to CAP has never sat quite right with me. Not sure of the details about previous attempts to reform (can’t imagine France would’ve supported, or possibly Germany) but whilst it’s original intentions were sensible, it feels outdated in some aspects and it’s crazy to think that’s where 30-40% of the total EU budget goes.

CCFCSteve · Dec 15, 2020

Grendel said:
Westminster swarming with rumours a deal is agreed

why, what you heard ?

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (33 Viewers)

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