The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (22 Viewers)

martcov · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
Dave I'm involved closely with a horse charity. This issue irks me. It's a joke. It has tried to prevent illegal horse exportation and its ignored. The EU has an appalling record in this area. We won't change it as every other country in the EU practically begs for if. Germany is an exception before Martcov kicks off.

Anyway I am on the record as for my views on May and animal welfare - ivory trade legitimacy is appalling. Let's not pretend for one second though pretend the EU and its legitimacy of animal cruelty and blood sports is nothing but disgraceful.

Germany is always calling for higher standards and reducing animal suffering. They will be the ones for stricter control of British food products should Britain drop their import standards in case they pass banned imports on to the EU.

I would have thought you would be on the EU side on this one. If we were staying in the EU you would be up there with the Germans and 'mad Merkel' pushing the EU to enforce standards - not with the "who needs experts" crowd. Gove is funnily enough against lowering standards to below EU level.

Sick Boy · Jul 25, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
Which in itself is no great shakes is it? Many from Britain go to the states & wax lyrical about the quality & quantity & price value of their steaks.

As long as it is clearly labelled as whatever it is we will have the option to avoid or buy. Although, do we trust that to happen?

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Why should we be willing to lower animal welfare standards and the quality of food? Would we even have a choice? UK farmers would no doubt lowering their standards and copy US standards to remain competitive. No great shakes though, eh?

martcov · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
The point is whatever standards they have between member states they just ignore them!

A very very sweeping statement. Either we are right in leaving the EU because of Brussels' bureaucrats or we should be leaving the EU because there are not enough bureaucrats enforcing their bureaucratic restrictions. A contradiction. Which is it? Less controls or more controls that you hope for by leaving the EU?

skybluetony176 · Jul 25, 2017

martcov said:
Germany is always calling for higher standards and reducing animal suffering. They will be the ones for stricter control of British food products should Britain drop their import standards in case they pass banned imports on to the EU.

I would have thought you would be on the EU side on this one. If we were staying in the EU you would be up there with the Germans and 'mad Merkel' pushing the EU to enforce standards - not with the "who needs experts" crowd. Gove is funnily enough against lowering standards to below EU level.

The irony being he's holding up leaving the EU as animal welfare being benefited whereas all the rhetoric coming from those responsible for taking us out the UK suggests the opposite with unethically farmed meat produce being able to reach the UK dinner table. Inevitably this will also lower the standard of British farming both to compete and also the government will be setting the bar lower on what is ethical by letting GM fed meat that's been pumped full of chemicals and hormones into the UK. They'll have to level the playing field for British farmers, simple as. The irony being that the average US citizen as a result of their farming practices spends 2% less of their income on food than the average UK citizen currently does. I'd argue that paying 2% extra is a price worth paying for considerably more ethical farming in the UK and EU.

As regards to the movement of horses for meat he seems to be suggesting that we can somehow improve policing of this in the EU by leaving when the reality is that with our new found "principles" on the ethics on animals for food post brexit this will probably be made even easier.

Grendel · Jul 25, 2017

martcov said:
A very very sweeping statement. Either we are right in leaving the EU because of Brussels' bureaucrats or we should be leaving the EU because there are not enough bureaucrats enforcing their bureaucratic restrictions. A contradiction. Which is it? Less controls or more controls that you hope for by leaving the EU?

No it's not sweeping at all. Most animal welfare organisations mock the EU system as member states ignore it - predominately because most member states enjoy the benefits cheap transport, cheap slaughter and cheap meat. The EU oddly also when having certain welfare laws have different status for different animals. Why do you think?

Grendel · Jul 25, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Why should we be willing to lower animal welfare standards and the quality of food? Would we even have a choice? UK farmers would no doubt lowering their standards and copy US standards to remain competitive. No great shakes though, eh?

Once again you talk with no understanding. Do you dispute the RSPCA stance on the referendum then that remaining would give an opportunity to bring the other lender states in line to more stringent rules?

Also you are a mass of contradiction. On the one hand you state the departure from the EU would mean higher prices but now imply we'd have cheap imported meat which lowers prices and perhaps may feed the "starving" nurses. Which is it?

Sick Boy · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
Once again you talk with no understanding. Do you dispute the RSPCA stance on the referendum then that remaining would give an opportunity to bring the other lender states in line to more stringent rules?

Also you are a mass of contradiction. On the one hand you state the departure from the EU would mean higher prices but now imply we'd have cheap imported meat which lowers prices and perhaps may feed the "starving" nurses. Which is it?

Nice deflection away from your own contradictions. Are you disputing the fact that food prices have risen?

To eat the same quality of food will inevitably become more expensive, if not more and more difficult for the majority of people. Eating mass produced hlorine washed chicken and hormone injected beef would become the norm. I'm surprised you aren't more outraged considering that you see to have great affection for animals?

Fair enough if your happy for you and your children to eat inferior quality food and to see even lower standards on animal welfare, I most certainly am not.

martcov · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
No it's not sweeping at all. Most animal welfare organisations mock the EU system as member states ignore it - predominately because most member states enjoy the benefits cheap transport, cheap slaughter and cheap meat. The EU oddly also when having certain welfare laws have different status for different animals. Why do you think?

So leaving and doing a deal with the Trumpist States of America will improve the situation as opposed to remaining in the EU and insisting that the bureaucratic rules are followed to the letter? Up until now Trump has appointed anti regulation people and is not enacting Obama laws and regulations. He doesn't give a flying f++k about people like yourself ( and myself ). It is all about making the wealthy wealthier, and some poor horses or donkeys of cattle - or the people who can only afford cheap food - don't come into the equation. He passed a decree that for every new regulation, two must be deleted. Do you think that doing a trade deal with this state.. under enormous time pressure and pressure to show that we can do trade deals without the EU... will help animals in Trump's America or make our imported food consumption healthier?

martcov · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
Once again you talk with no understanding. Do you dispute the RSPCA stance on the referendum then that remaining would give an opportunity to bring the other lender states in line to more stringent rules?

Also you are a mass of contradiction. On the one hand you state the departure from the EU would mean higher prices but now imply we'd have cheap imported meat which lowers prices and perhaps may feed the "starving" nurses. Which is it?

According to the RSPCA they were neutral. They now hope to use leaving as an opportunity to raise standards in the U.K.. 80% of Animal welfare laws are EU laws, so there is a possibility of some of them being ditched which would be negative. Do you know what they think about the possibility of importing food from cattle housed in sheds their whole lives in the USA? Are the RSPCA only concerned with the UK or do they bother about food sourcing? Genuine question. Have they more influence in the USA or Europe?

SkyblueBazza · Jul 25, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Why should we be willing to lower animal welfare standards and the quality of food? Would we even have a choice? UK farmers would no doubt lowering their standards and copy US standards to remain competitive. No great shakes though, eh?

If we keep our standards as they are or raise them then people have a real choice. As I say if people want to support our higher standards they don't eat cheap (if they are cheap) US substitutes.
As I say though many will like the option as they rave about the lovely juicy steaks & the like.

My main concern is poor or misleading labelling - if the processor people can pass lamb/chicken/pork(/whatever) mixes off as beef as suggested in various programmes...who the heck trusts the authorities to prevent us being hoodwinked? Although if you eat anything processed into a ready meal - lets face it...you could be eating rat, horse or dog these days

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Grendel · Jul 25, 2017

martcov said:
So leaving and doing a deal with the Trumpist States of America will improve the situation as opposed to remaining in the EU and insisting that the bureaucratic rules are followed to the letter? Up until now Trump has appointed anti regulation people and is not enacting Obama laws and regulations. He doesn't give a flying f++k about people like yourself ( and myself ). It is all about making the wealthy wealthier, and some poor horses or donkeys of cattle - or the people who can only afford cheap food - don't come into the equation. He passed a decree that for every new regulation, two must be deleted. Do you think that doing a trade deal with this state.. under enormous time pressure and pressure to show that we can do trade deals without the EU... will help animals in Trump's America or make our imported food consumption healthier?

Rules will be broken as the eu has no interest in animals other than a source of profit.

This article says the eu has legislation but oddly labels countries like Germany as far worse than ours

Quarter of meat sold in UK imported from nations weaker on animal welfare

Grendel · Jul 25, 2017

The interesting thing about the debate is that Sick Boy and Martcov having said that trade deals will take years think we can do one with the biggest western power on earth very very easily.

Grendel · Jul 25, 2017

Anyway this debate is utterly idiotic for one reason. I'd like Martcov to comment on this and explain how he equates animal welfare to this. Also he may actually then explain to me how much of this product is imported to the EU and from where.

Foie gras: The European Commission turns a blind eye to French law-breakers! | Foie gras -> Stop gavage

Grendel · Jul 25, 2017

Oh and oddly this activity is never stopped either

Bullfighting in Europe : Humane Society International

martcov · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
The interesting thing about the debate is that Sick Boy and Martcov having said that trade deals will take years think we can do one with the biggest western power on earth very very easily.

No. Trump says that, and Liam Fox thinks everything is easy peasy. I am just asking you how you explain contrary positions and you seem to be deflecting at a high rate. Any relationship to KellyAnn?

martcov · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
Rules will be broken as the eu has no interest in animals other than a source of profit.

This article says the eu has legislation but oddly labels countries like Germany as far worse than ours

Quarter of meat sold in UK imported from nations weaker on animal welfare

Answer the question please.

Grendel · Jul 25, 2017

martcov said:
No. Trump says that, and Liam Fox thinks everything is easy peasy. I am just asking you how you explain contrary positions and you seem to be deflecting at a high rate. Any relationship to KellyAnn?

I'm not deflecting a thing - I just believe the notion that the Eu is in anyway an example of animal welfare positives funny

I've sent links you've ignored but I want one discussion - the foie gras industry. The title is "the eu cares about animal welfare"

You start. Like I've done promise numerous links to back up your stance on goose liver animal welfare

Are there organic farms!

How many bullfights this week in the uk?

Grendel · Jul 25, 2017

martcov said:
Answer the question please.

You are fucked I can put so much animal cruelty in here you'd be toast. Well foie gras on toast. What fucked up country would ever sanction that?

Liquid Gold · Jul 25, 2017

Concerned about animal welfare but happy to vote for fox hunting. What strong morals.

martcov · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
I'm not deflecting a thing - I just believe the notion that the Eu is in anyway an example of animal welfare positives funny

I've sent links you've ignored but I want one discussion - the foie gras industry. The title is "the eu cares about animal welfare"

You start. Like I've done promise numerous links to back up your stance on goose liver animal welfare

Are there organic farms!

How many bullfights this week in the uk?

The question was whether accepting American standards would be an improvement? I am as disgusted as you about the things mentioned in your links ( the Guardian one was 7 years old, so it would be nice to know if things have got better ). Yes there are organic farms in Germany. There are pressure groups in Germany. There people striving to make things better.

Will Trump be pushing organic farms or relieving the food industry of pesky regulations?

I doubt whether you will find many bullfights in Britain, but you will find illegal dog fights. Thank god they are illegal. We nearly reintroduced Fox Hunting a few weeks ago. Close call there. Your Tory mates tried to sneak that in thinking they were in for a landslide.

We should be in the EU pushing for the enforcement of existing regulations and demanding more. Proper labelling and origin included. But, we are trying to a deal with the mob/ clan ruled USA. Senseless. Trump has said he will only sign deals which benefit American workers. Nothing about raising trade standards.

skybluetony176 · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
Anyway this debate is utterly idiotic for one reason. I'd like Martcov to comment on this and explain how he equates animal welfare to this. Also he may actually then explain to me how much of this product is imported to the EU and from where.

Foie gras: The European Commission turns a blind eye to French law-breakers! | Foie gras -> Stop gavage

No one is denying that animal welfare is lower on the continent when compared to the UK numbnuts. We're just pointing out that putting meat on the UK table from the US is lowering the bar. How anyone can claim to be an animal lover and deliberately ignore that for the sake of attempting to win a pro brexit argument is staggering.

skybluetony176 · Jul 25, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
Concerned about animal welfare but happy to vote for fox hunting. What strong morals.

Good point. One of several reasons why I chose not to vote Tory in the last election. Granted my decision was mostly motivated by economics but it did feel good putting an X in a box that wasn't going to legalise fox hunting.

martcov · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
I'm not deflecting a thing - I just believe the notion that the Eu is in anyway an example of animal welfare positives funny

I've sent links you've ignored but I want one discussion - the foie gras industry. The title is "the eu cares about animal welfare"

You start. Like I've done promise numerous links to back up your stance on goose liver animal welfare

Are there organic farms!

How many bullfights this week in the uk?

Just checked the organic farms website in Germany. 2015: Around 8% in number of farms and 6,4% in arable area in Germany and increasing. Don't know how that compares with Britain.

skybluetony176 · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
You are fucked I can put so much animal cruelty in here you'd be toast. Well foie gras on toast. What fucked up country would ever sanction that?

Interestingly the US is the forth biggest producer of foie gras and the biggest consumer outside of Europe.

In 2004 and 2005, the American Veterinary Medical Association House of Delegates, the US accrediting body of veterinary medicine, was forwarded resolutions from its Animal Welfare Committee to oppose the production methods for foie gras. After hearing testimony from 13 delegates, the HOD declined to take a position and left a simple statement: "Limited peer-reviewed, scientific information is available dealing with the animal welfare concerns associated with foie gras production, but the observations and practical experience shared by HOD members indicate a minimum of adverse effects on the birds involved."

The HOD sent delegates to visit foie gras farms. One delegate, Robert P Gordon of New Jersey, indicated his personal position changed drastically after the visit. He also testified tube feeding is less distressing than taking the rectal temperature of a cat and urged the AVMA to take a position based on science, not emotion, while cautioning against anthropomorphism. The New York delegation offered their opinion that opponents of foie gras were intending to create a wedge issue; that the arguments used against foie gras would be modified to be used against other livestock production. The testimony of the delegate from the Association of Avian Veterinarians was that medicating and feeding sick birds via tube was a normal practice that birds accepted without stress. Another delegate who toured the farms stated that the birds appeared to be well cared for and better off than other poultry raised in factory farming. The overall position of the House of Delegates was that "observations and practical experience shared by HOD members indicate a minimum of adverse effects on the birds involved."[20] The closing comments in the HOD were that the AVMA should be taking positions on facts and science, make broad policy positions on general animal welfare, and support positions that created oversight of controversial practices for fear that prohibition would cause production to move to countries without animal welfare regulation.[20]

Critics of the AVMA have stated that the organization tends to defend the economic interests of agribusiness over animal welfare, and that it has also declined to take a position against other controversial practices such as forced molting and gestation crates.

SIR ERNIE · Jul 25, 2017

martcov said:
Name a borderless nation.

Well you can get on a train in Brussels and travel to France, Holland or Germany without ever showing a passport or being aware of crossing a border, so I'd say Belgium was pretty much a borderless nation.

Liquid Gold · Jul 25, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
Well you can get on a train in Brussels and travel to France, Holland or Germany without ever showing a passport or being aware of crossing a border, so I'd say Belgium was pretty much a borderless nation.

If you got on a plane from Kenya to Belgium you go through border control and have to show a passport and a visa. There are no borders between the majority of the EU (The UK not included) but that is an agreement between EU nations. You're confusing reduced borders with no borders.

Sick Boy · Jul 25, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
If we keep our standards as they are or raise them then people have a real choice. As I say if people want to support our higher standards they don't eat cheap (if they are cheap) US substitutes.
As I say though many will like the option as they rave about the lovely juicy steaks & the like.

My main concern is poor or misleading labelling - if the processor people can pass lamb/chicken/pork(/whatever) mixes off as beef as suggested in various programmes...who the heck trusts the authorities to prevent us being hoodwinked? Although if you eat anything processed into a ready meal - lets face it...you could be eating rat, horse or dog these days

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

You'd hope that anything of a lower standard would not be allowed into the country, but it certainly doesn't look to be the case.

skybluetony176 · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
Oh and oddly this activity is never stopped either

Bullfighting in Europe : Humane Society International

Rodeos

Sick Boy · Jul 25, 2017

Grendel said:
The interesting thing about the debate is that Sick Boy and Martcov having said that trade deals will take years think we can do one with the biggest western power on earth very very easily.

There isn't going to be much to negotiate really though is there? It's more a case of 'where do we sign'. I'm surprised you are suddenly so eager to get on board with someone like Trump as well.

Sick Boy · Jul 25, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
Concerned about animal welfare but happy to vote for fox hunting. What strong morals.

Hahaha...exactly, a massive hypocrite.

martcov · Jul 25, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
Well you can get on a train in Brussels and travel to France, Holland or Germany without ever showing a passport or being aware of crossing a border, so I'd say Belgium was pretty much a borderless nation.

Belgium is within the Schengen borders. The outer borders are protected / controlled - usually.

Grendel · Jul 26, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
Concerned about animal welfare but happy to vote for fox hunting. What strong morals.

I am totally opposed to fox hunting and also the other idea on ivory trade.

Captain Dart · Jul 26, 2017

martcov said:
Belgium is within the Schengen borders. The outer borders are protected / controlled - usually.

Ha ha ha, tell that to the Sicilians.

martcov · Jul 26, 2017

Captain Dart said:
Ha ha ha, tell that to the Sicilians.

Caveat: usually. Fact is Belgium has borders at airports. Schengen area has borders. Belgium is not an example of a borderless country.

Sicily also does have external borders - whether they are respected or not, or whether people of refugee status or claiming refugee status can pass or not.

Please name a country without borders. That was the question and, apart from sarcastic comments, no one has yet done that.

martcov · Jul 26, 2017

Grendel said:
I am totally opposed to fox hunting and also the other idea on ivory trade.

But, for making new trade deals without EU animal welfare Bureaucracy ( even if it is by no means perfect ), and with such people as the Liar in Chief who doesn't give a damn about your favourite charity's aims.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (22 Viewers)

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