The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (15 Viewers)

shmmeee · Oct 29, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
Question. If he did get his nassive majority, would he ignore the hardcore mentalists in his party, and revert to moderate wishy washy Tory?

It’s a really good question. Boris is a moderate outside of Brexit. He sees himself as a compassionate liberal.

But then the party membership has been doing a (Stalinist) purge of non-believers and he might find himself with a party full of headbangers.

I do have some faith left in the British electorate that if that were the case they’d get punished pretty quick. I still see us as a socially conservative, centre left economically country. We like the NHS and public services and after a decade of austerity there’s not a lot to cut before we hit Thatcher levels of decay.

clint van damme · Oct 29, 2019

Grendel said:
they are with Marxism

The countries with the strongest unions are anything but Maxist.

Astute · Oct 29, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
I really wish they'd see their way to some sort of pact.

Neither seems to be strong enough. And I can't see the Leb Dems wanting anything to do with it as what they really want is a full majority so they can stop Brexit. Sharing seats would make sure they couldn't do it before a vote is even cast.

shmmeee · Oct 29, 2019

Astute said:
Neither seems to be strong enough. And I can't see the Leb Dems wanting anything to do with it as what they really want is a full majority so they can stop Brexit. Sharing seats would make sure they couldn't do it before a vote is even cast.

Also a huge chunk of their vote is pissed of Tories and anti Corbyn Labourites. They have to attack Corbyn, they can’t go into partnership with him.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

shmmeee said:
Tripe. Talk like that just excuses the shit ones. There are good politicians and bad.

There are a handful of good ones I will concede that. There are some bad ones & many shit ones.

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shmmeee · Oct 29, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
There are a handful of good ones I will concede that. There are some bad ones & many shit ones.

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Thing is most “good” (meaning not outright shitbag liars) MPs keep their head down and work hard for their constituents so you never hear about them.

Deleted member 5849 · Oct 29, 2019

shmmeee said:
Thing is most “good” (meaning not outright shitbag liars) MPs keep their head down and work hard for their constituents so you never hear about them.

It was always difficult back in the day. Jim Pawsey was a 'good' local MP for Rugby, in that he was always bothered with local issues, and happy to raise them, along with showing support and responding to his constituents. His policies were totally opposed to mine however. Then Andy King came along for Labour who, again, was a good local MP.

As far as I'm aware Mark Pawsey, the current MP is also quite 'good' in terms of his local engagement and happiness to fight for his constituents (he even turned up to something I organised!). He has some rather medieval life-views however!

It makes our current system a little odd really. Do you vote for the good local MP, knowing it might keep the bad national party in power?

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

shmmeee said:
Where have they said that? They’ve said if we want our red lines that was the best and it was. That’s why Boris abandoned his red lines. It’s always been up to us as long as we don’t ask the EU to change it’s fundamentals.

Google it...you'll find about 5 separate articles over the last 5months alone

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shmmeee · Oct 29, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
Google it...you'll find about 5 separate articles over the last 5months alone

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Give us a hand what should I be googling?

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

shmmeee said:
No. I’m trying to tel you we’ve had an election since Brexit and Labour didn’t lose those seats. We’ve had by-elections since then in heavy leave seats like Stoke and Labour have retained them.

Im also saying that simply looking at the referendum result and assuming everyone who voted Leave will abandon Labour is misleading because only 30% of their 2017 vote voted Leave and signs suggest that not all Leave voters were rabid right wing free traders who support Boris and/or Farage but people sending a message against the status quo that Corbyns policies appeal to. Yet more of them are “all politicians are the same” types who aren’t as used to voting and may well not turn up at a GE.

Given you think people who voted leave are stupid...that speaks volumes for those constituencies that elected Labour MPs in that post Brexit era - oh, no...they were lied to about commitment to deliver Brexit weren't they?

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SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

shmmeee said:
Ken Clarke. Keir Starmer. Caroline Lucas. Dominic Grieve. Jess Phillips. Peter Kyle. Colleen Fletcher. Jim Cunningham. Lisa Nandy. Philip Hammond. Ed Milliband. Sarah Wollaston. Theresa May. I’d even say some of the hard Brexit lot, though I don’t know them as well, probably think they’re doing the best for their country. Not JRM but many seem genuine if incorrect. I’d probably include the likes of Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell as well. If they were in it for the glory they sure were playing the long game.

I don’t agree with all their politics or think all of them are particularly competent. But I don’t think they’re evil lying politicians with a hidden agenda either.

Id argue probably as much as 70%+ of MPs of all sides are there because they want to make the country better.

See at least 50% of those names would be disputed by many

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shmmeee · Oct 29, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
Given you think people who voted leave are stupid...that speaks volumes for those constituencies that elected Labour MPs in that post Brexit era - oh, no...they were lied to about commitment to deliver Brexit weren't they?

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I’m not sure stupid is the same as poor at parsing information, but I’ll allow it.

By that logic so were the Tory voters lied to. After all Boris has delayed Brexit for his election. Labour have consistently said they’d support a normal Brexit but not a hard right one. It’s not their fault the government never offered it. The opposition can’t commit the government to spend money so it always had to come from the Tories.

And as I kept pointing out to Astute, a majority in the referendum doesn’t mean every single voter who voted for Labour also voted Leave.

Many MPs are elected on less than 50% of the total vote and many voted in the referendum but don’t vote at a GE. Only about a quarter to 30% of Labour voters voted Leave.

Nice try though.

shmmeee · Oct 29, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
See at least 50% of those names would be disputed by many

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And would those “many” have any actual evidence of wrongdoing or would it just be along political lines?

Astute · Oct 29, 2019

shmmeee said:
Also a huge chunk of their vote is pissed of Tories and anti Corbyn Labourites. They have to attack Corbyn, they can’t go into partnership with him.

Good point.

This GE would be fun for an outsider to watch. They are going to accuse each other of being what we know that they are.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

shmmeee said:
Go on then. What’s Diane Abbott’s evil plan? I’m all ears.

And that’s not a comprehensive list, just off the top of my head FFS.

Just sick of this “hurr durr I’m so edgy all politicians are liars” bollocks. Especially so because since it’s become cool the number of outright liars and shits we’ve had in the public eye has increased. Because it lets in the likes of Farage and Johnson because they “tell it like it is”.

It’s lazy, dangerous thinking. Our fucking MPs aren’t evil for gods sake. Grow up.

There doesn't need to be an 'evil plan' does there???
Besides her knack for gaffs, she is as racist as those MPs/ministers put down for their comments. Tweeting "White people love playing 'divide and rule'" in 2012. Add ""West Indian mums will go to the wall for their children" in an effort to justify sending her own offspring to private schooling whilst relating others (including Harriet Harman "She made the Labour Party look as if we do one thing and say another," not sure we can fault that argument, it still happens today) for doing so...& her most damning statement that she even said her own decision to send her son for private education was "indefensible" & "incoherent"!

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shmmeee · Oct 29, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
There doesn't need to be an 'evil plan' does there???
Besides her knack for gaffs, she is as racist as those MPs/ministers put down for their comments. Tweeting "White people love playing 'divide and rule'" in 2012. Add ""West Indian mums will go to the wall for their children" in an effort to justify sending her own offspring to private schooling whilst relating others (including Harriet Harman "She made the Labour Party look as if we do one thing and say another," not sure we can fault that argument, it still happens today) for doing so...& her most damning statement that she even said her own decision to send her son for private education was "indefensible" & "incoherent"!

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You implied that politicians have an ulterior motive. I’m not arguing about likability, competence, or political views TBH

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Apparently not. The thing is as well Trump seems to be a driving force behind this and largely to address an imbalance between what the US pays for drugs compared to a lot of the developed world. Instead of using his power and influence to bring down drug prices in the US his idea is to make other nations pay more than they currently do to bring them in line with what the US is paying. Which is why he hates the EU, it’s too powerful for him to manipulate. Us on our own however?

He's probably going to be disappointed in the short term then.
What is the new Voluntary Scheme on branded medicines?

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skybluetony176 · Oct 29, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
He's probably going to be disappointed in the short term then.
What is the new Voluntary Scheme on branded medicines?

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Do you think that will be relevant in trade negotiations? Aside from the fact that it’s voluntary.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Worth a read Drug pricing trends in the EU versus in the US - Results Healthcare

What are the recent and forecasted trends in prescription drug spending? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

Thing is the reality of the situation is very different to how it appears on the face of things. For example there have been recent advances in drug treatments for rarer diseases/conditions which are vastly more costly to develop & bring to market. So given they are less common conditions, the pricing is high. There will be more & more of these coming through. So the overall cost of medicines will increase, but the cost of expensive procedures will reduce as a result of some of them...& spin-off savings benefits or for lives lost gets thrown into the mix it just isn't as straightforward as it looks. Britain & EU have some pretty innovation Pharma going on too.

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Sky Blue Pete · Oct 29, 2019

Johnson is abandoning election if 16 year olds and Eu citizens are allowed to vote

SkyBlueDom26 · Oct 29, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Johnson is abandoning election if 16 year olds and Eu citizens are allowed to vote

Good so he should, would take ages to bring in and delay even more

skybluetony176 · Oct 29, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
What are the recent and forecasted trends in prescription drug spending? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

Thing is the reality of the situation is very different to how it appears on the face of things. For example there have been recent advances in drug treatments for rarer diseases/conditions which are vastly more costly to develop & bring to market. So given they are less common conditions, the pricing is high. There will be more & more of these coming through. So the overall cost of medicines will increase, but the cost of expensive procedures will reduce as a result of some of them...& spin-off savings benefits or for lives lost gets thrown into the mix it just isn't as straightforward as it looks. Britain & EU have some pretty innovation Pharma going on too.

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Did you actually read the link in the post you’re replying to? You’re confusing one issue with another. The same drug in America can cost five times as much as it does in the EU. It’s nothing to do with research. As it tells you in the link the US government is one of the biggest purchasers of drugs in the US yet they don’t negotiate the price like other countries governments do and this sets the precedent in the US. Donald Trumps answer to this is not to negotiate the price of drugs in America it’s to make everyone else to pay the same as the US.

chiefdave · Oct 29, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Johnson is abandoning election if 16 year olds and Eu citizens are allowed to vote

Why is his answer to everything to take his ball and go home?

skybluetony176 · Oct 29, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Johnson is abandoning election if 16 year olds and Eu citizens are allowed to vote

skybluetony176 · Oct 29, 2019

chiefdave said:
Why is his answer to everything to take his ball and go home?

Because he’s a child.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Oct 29, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Johnson is abandoning election if 16 year olds and Eu citizens are allowed to vote

16 year old " uuuuuugh......how many ticks do I put on this, like, bit of paper ? "
......ughhhhh, what's a polling station ? "
Uuuugh, can't I just do it on my phone? '

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

clint van damme said:
it really is.
500 million spent by big pharma in the US lobbying for the NHS to be part of a trade deal.

Now they've been rumbled for getting so many Americans hooked on opiates they need another cash cow.

Are people confusing health management companies with Pharma companies here? Pfizer is the biggest Pharma company globally & already operates here within our existing evaluation processes. Tbh these are already flawed as two neighbouring CCGs can have different drugs to treat the same condition as their preferred option after evaluating the same available evidence...how does that work?

So I am not sure how any new trading between US Pharma & the NHS might look, but they are not penalised nor favoured compared to UK or anyone else's drugs now - and I doubt they ever would be

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skybluetony176 · Oct 29, 2019

It’s alright. 16 year olds are gullible apparently so Boris will have no problems selling them a half baked Brexit and secure their votes.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
They have a long history of manipulation of the vulnerable.

That is how marketing works...in crude terms people are thinking they are getting really good value for money but probably 99% of the time they are getting duped. That isn't a long tradition of the US. That is just the long tradition of trade

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SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

SkyBlueDom26 said:
Stop talking shite

Chicken shite you mean?

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skybluetony176 · Oct 29, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
That is how marketing works...in crude terms people are thinking they are getting really good value for money but probably 99% of the time they are getting duped. That isn't a long tradition of the US. That is just the long tradition of trade

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What the hell are you going on about. The people of America don’t think that they’re getting a good deal.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

shmmeee said:
Give us a hand what should I be googling?

eu say no to any brexit renegotiation

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SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

shmmeee said:
I’m not sure stupid is the same as poor at parsing information, but I’ll allow it.

By that logic so were the Tory voters lied to. After all Boris has delayed Brexit for his election. Labour have consistently said they’d support a normal Brexit but not a hard right one. It’s not their fault the government never offered it. The opposition can’t commit the government to spend money so it always had to come from the Tories.

And as I kept pointing out to Astute, a majority in the referendum doesn’t mean every single voter who voted for Labour also voted Leave.

Many MPs are elected on less than 50% of the total vote and many voted in the referendum but don’t vote at a GE. Only about a quarter to 30% of Labour voters voted Leave.

Nice try though.

Boris has been forced to delay it by parliament hasn't he? So he is trying to find a way of breaking the deadlock by suggesting we have an election on 12th Dec.

The opposition parties don't seem to,want one or then they want one but not when Boris does...it is all tedious petty bollocks with - yes a hidden agenda

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shmmeee · Oct 29, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
eu say no to any brexit renegotiation

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First article I found:

SkyblueBazza · Oct 29, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
What the hell are you going on about. The people of America don’t think that they’re getting a good deal.

Marketing & sales in general Tony.

Specifically the US people & the Pharma companies...they have an entirely different health service & pricing scheme to ours.

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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (15 Viewers)

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