The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

Sick Boy · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
And here is your problem. You only want the good things about the EU mentioned and look to blame anyone or anything else but the EU for the bad things.

The South of Italy is suffering badly from those looking for a better life. They know once in Europe they have a good chance. But thousands each year are getting killed trying to reach Italy. Now it looks like Italy will turn away those saved from drowning. I can see it where ship captains will stop saving people as they won't be able to take them to Italy. Italy can't cope with any more. The EU are not doing enough to help Italy. But they caused it by wanting open borders. Austria are about to close their borders. Switzerland are considering the same. If they all start going to France there is a good chance it will also happen there. Then what?

Are you advocating that the likes of Britain and France should be doing more to share these people across the EU, if so I agree.

Refugees would try to get the Europe even if there was not freedom of movement though (which is only open to EU citizens btw). Just like those hiding in lorrys to get to Britain do now, they won't care if Britain is outside the EU.

The notion that the south's problems is down to people arriving from Africa, is quite frankly absurd.

Switzerland isn't in the EU, by the way.

Sick Boy · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
So what has the EU been made the scapegoat for?

You just did so and tried to blame the woes of southern Italy on refugees and the EU, while bizarrely ignoring decades of corruption by the mafia.
The Mafia mobsters bring Italy's economy to its knees by infiltrating each business | Daily Mail Online

Mafia’s grip linked to increased poverty across southern Italy

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Are you advocating that the likes of Britain and France should be doing more to share these people across the EU, if so I agree.

Refugees would try to get the Europe even if there was not freedom of movement though (which is only open to EU citizens btw). Just like those hiding in lorrys to get to Britain do now, they won't care if Britain is outside the EU.

The notion that the south's problems is down to people arriving from Africa, is quite frankly absurd.

Switzerland isn't in the EU, by the way.

Yes you would be happy to take an unlimited number here although we can't cope already.

Non Europeans manly started to come to Europe when the borders opened. They knew it would be much easier to move about than before.

I will ask yet again. And no twisting what I say for once. Are you saying that the South of Italy isn't suffering because of economic migrants? And no it isn't me trying to blame everything on them.

I know Switzerland isn't in the EU as a member. But they have open borders. I have never been stopped going through as I always already have my tax disc for there.

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

Sick Boy said:
You just did so and tried to blame the woes of southern Italy on refugees and the EU, while bizarrely ignoring decades of corruption by the mafia.
The Mafia mobsters bring Italy's economy to its knees by infiltrating each business | Daily Mail Online

Mafia’s grip linked to increased poverty across southern Italy

OK have it your way of not having anything said against the EU. It is a wonderful institution. And the South of Italy never has any problems because of economic migrants. Italy is turning those away that have been saved at sea for no reason at all.

Sick Boy · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
Yes you would be happy to take an unlimited number here although we can't cope already.

Non Europeans manly started to come to Europe when the borders opened. They knew it would be much easier to move about than before.

I will ask yet again. And no twisting what I say for once. Are you saying that the South of Italy isn't suffering because of economic migrants? And no it isn't me trying to blame everything on them.

I know Switzerland isn't in the EU as a member. But they have open borders. I have never been stopped going through as I always already have my tax disc for there.

No, the south of Italy is suffering due to the decades, if not centuries of Mafia control. Refugees are also moved to different parts of Italy. The richer regions like Trentino seem to take larger numbers.

Sick Boy · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
OK have it your way of not having anything said against the EU. It is a wonderful institution. And the South of Italy never has any problems because of economic migrants. Italy is turning those away that have been saved at sea for no reason at all.

You just said that Britain shouldn't help out, so you're a hypocrite.

I've also previously stated that the Euro has had a negative effect on Italy. You're the one atempting to use it as a scapegoat.

Liquid Gold · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
Yes you would be happy to take an unlimited number here although we can't cope already.

Non Europeans manly started to come to Europe when the borders opened. They knew it would be much easier to move about than before.

I will ask yet again. And no twisting what I say for once. Are you saying that the South of Italy isn't suffering because of economic migrants? And no it isn't me trying to blame everything on them.

I know Switzerland isn't in the EU as a member. But they have open borders. I have never been stopped going through as I always already have my tax disc for there.

Astute you live in Cumbria if I'm right? I'd just like to ask what the migrant population is where you are and how it affects public services?

Where I am in Bristol we have a hugely diverse international born population but the problems we have aren't down to immigration at all. I have family that work for social care charities who see working British families struggling to feed themselves and friends who work with charities integrating migrants but have seen no extra strain on public services.

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

Sick Boy said:
You just said that Britain shouldn't help out, so you're a hypocrite.

I've also previously stated that the Euro has had a negative effect on Italy. You're the one atempting to use it as a scapegoat.

Why should we help out as you say that no problems are caused because of the influx of people.

Or are you now going to change your mind.

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
Astute you live in Cumbria if I'm right? I'd just like to ask what the migrant population is where you are and how it affects public services?

Where I am in Bristol we have a hugely diverse international born population but the problems we have aren't down to immigration at all. I have family that work for social care charities who see working British families struggling to feed themselves and friends who work with charities integrating migrants but have seen no extra strain on public services.

It is about 99% British born here. I get a doctors appointment as soon as I want one. Visitors always mention how easy it is to get treated in the hospital here to where they come from.

Immigration has no effect? What a joke. I have said before on here that my stepdad would most probably still be with us if that was the case. They had to shut the heart unit in Boston hospital to cope. They have to try and stabilise those with heart problems before moving them by ambulance to Nottingham or somewhere a similar distance.

Sick Boy · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
Why should we help out as you say that no problems are caused because of the influx of people.

Or are you now going to change your mind.

Why are you comparing economic migrants from the EU, who are net contributors, to refugees coming from Europe from Africa?

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Why are you comparing economic migrants from the EU, who are net contributors, to refugees coming from Europe from Africa?

Why are you saying that it doesn't make a difference to the South of Italy when it does?

Sick Boy · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
It is about 99% British born here. I get a doctors appointment as soon as I want one. Visitors always mention how easy it is to get treated in the hospital here to where they come from.

Immigration has no effect? What a joke. I have said before on here that my stepdad would most probably still be with us if that was the case. They had to shut the heart unit in Boston hospital to cope. They have to try and stabilise those with heart problems before moving them by ambulance to Nottingham or somewhere a similar distance.

Where I live 35% (at least) of the population is non British and I can get a doctors appointment on the same day.

I'm sorry for your loss but look to the likes of the government for not funding the health service.It's sad you blame the migrants (like my parents and partner) for the woes of the country.

Sick Boy · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
Why are you saying that it doesn't make a difference to the South of Italy when it does?

Why are you ignoring that the refugees are dispersed around the country and the effect the Mafia has had?

SIR ERNIE · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
The Euro has made Italy weak. They would be better off without it. But they are in too deep now.

Their unemployment rate has been over 11% for ages. The unemployed amount has just gone up by another 44,000. The employed has just gone down by 51,000. Those under 25 and looking for work has just gone up to 37%. And the total in work has gone down to 57.7%....one of the lowest in the EU.

At least the German economy is doing well.

Spot on Astute.

I spend a lot of time in Italy on business, mainly Milan and Bologna. A few years back I had an office in Genoa for three years and employed five office and warehouse staff. I love the country, the people, the food, wine, culture and the wonderful language.

I can tell you first hand that the country has become an absolute mess in recent years. The economy is a mess, banks in a precarious position, youth unemployment pushing 40%, mass immigration is a massive concern, for which Merkel is public enemy no.1 and there is huge resentment towards the EU.

Like other Southern European countries, there is a growing desire to break free from the Germany-dominated EU. They admire the UK decision to leave the EU.

Liquid Gold · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
It is about 99% British born here. I get a doctors appointment as soon as I want one. Visitors always mention how easy it is to get treated in the hospital here to where they come from.

Immigration has no effect? What a joke. I have said before on here that my stepdad would most probably still be with us if that was the case. They had to shut the heart unit in Boston hospital to cope. They have to try and stabilise those with heart problems before moving them by ambulance to Nottingham or somewhere a similar distance.

I'm of course massively sorry for your loss.

If something has extra demand then you give it extra funding, easily taken from the billions EU migrants put into the UK economy. Our government has been the ones purposefully under funding the health service - which is staffed by EU migrants. This is what I mean when saying scapegoating, migrants are not the issue where pressure on the health service is concerned but successive governments are happy for you to think this because it relieves them of any responsibility.

shmmeee · Jul 11, 2017

Can I just say:

Anyone worried about migration and voting for a climate denying party like UKIP or Conservative needs to have a word with themselves. This current flow will look like a drizzle compared to the downpour we'll get once the droughts and floods kick in.

shmmeee · Jul 11, 2017

Can I just say:

Anyone worried about migration and voting for a climate denying party like UKIP or Conservative needs to have a word with themselves. This current flow will look like a drizzle compared to the downpour we'll get once the droughts and floods kick in.

martcov · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
We are in talks with the USA and China on exports already. But we are not allowed to finalise anything until we have left the EU. They are much bigger markets than the EU.

According to Trump.... the EU have an advantage over the USA through their negotiating skills. He actually praised them ( by mistake as he thought it was the Germans not the EU that negotiated with the USA ). The EU are already dealing with China and have just signed new deals with Canada and Japan. They don't need to do it all again which takes years, but Britain does.

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
Spot on Astute.

I spend a lot of time in Italy on business, mainly Milan and Bologna. A few years back I had an office in Genoa for three years and employed five office and warehouse staff. I love the country, the people, the food, wine, culture and the wonderful language.

I can tell you first hand that the country has become an absolute mess in recent years. The economy is a mess, banks in a precarious position, youth unemployment pushing 40%, mass immigration is a massive concern, for which Merkel is public enemy no.1 and there is huge resentment towards the EU.

Like other Southern European countries, there is a growing desire to break free from the Germany-dominated EU. They admire the UK decision to leave the EU.

I fully agree. I love Italy, the people and the food. I love drinking Peroni at less than people drink pisswater like Carling here. I love driving in Milan. I have seen the country go seriously downhill in recent years. It is sad to see.

Kingokings204 · Jul 11, 2017

Just reading about the Italian banking crisis and how it hits the good Italian people. It really is a sorry state and unemployment and youth employment is very high. There is no money and austerity is really hurting the country.

Seems Rome lent money to two major banks and it goes against state and eu rules. Interesting but sad at the same time.

martcov · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
And here is your problem. You only want the good things about the EU mentioned and look to blame anyone or anything else but the EU for the bad things.

The South of Italy is suffering badly from those looking for a better life. They know once in Europe they have a good chance. But thousands each year are getting killed trying to reach Italy. Now it looks like Italy will turn away those saved from drowning. I can see it where ship captains will stop saving people as they won't be able to take them to Italy. Italy can't cope with any more. The EU are not doing enough to help Italy. But they caused it by wanting open borders. Austria are about to close their borders. Switzerland are considering the same. If they all start going to France there is a good chance it will also happen there. Then what?

Are you blaming the EU for Africans seeking a better life? Are you blaming the EU for a civil war in Syria? The big migration will come from Africa as there is a young population and little chance for people to feed themselves or have a decent standard of living. Syria and Iraq were created after the First World War by the victorious powers....- er.... that means including by us.... as was Kuwait which resulted in a recent war... it is more like the EU are being blamed for everything regardless. What happens when there is no EU to blame? Who will you blame then when things go wrong?

Kingokings204 · Jul 11, 2017

Spain was also mentioned in the same bad light with very similar problems. I don't know how they escape it whilst in the euro and the EU. If they didn't have the euro and eu they could obviously devalue and inject money through different means. Still I hear Germany is doing well. Its not all bad news.

martcov · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
It has been said that less than 50% of people now living in London were born in this country. But there is a large amount of people not born here that have said no more.

So what has the EU been made the scapegoat for?

What hasn't it been blamed for? Far easier to answer ...

Kingokings204 · Jul 11, 2017

martcov said:
Are you blaming the EU for Africans seeking a better life? Are you blaming the EU for a civil war in Syria? The big migration will come from Africa as there is a young population and little chance for people to feed themselves or have a decent standard of living. Syria and Iraq were created after the First World War by the victorious powers....- er.... that means including by us.... as was Kuwait which resulted in a recent war... it is more like the EU are being blamed for everything regardless. What happens when there is no EU to blame? Who will you blame then when things go wrong?

We can blame our governments as that's who should be running and dealing with our country. You still don't get it. People voted for our governments to have the final say and to run our lands from policticans we elect. Not unelected wealthy beaurocrats in Brussels who propose legislation at will on us. It was rejected last June 23rd.

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
I'm of course massively sorry for your loss.

If something has extra demand then you give it extra funding, easily taken from the billions EU migrants put into the UK economy. Our government has been the ones purposefully under funding the health service - which is staffed by EU migrants. This is what I mean when saying scapegoating, migrants are not the issue where pressure on the health service is concerned but successive governments are happy for you to think this because it relieves them of any responsibility.

It isn't as easy as you say though. We need millions of homes built just to catch up with the population we now have. We need more hospitals. Roads are getting gridlocked. It would take many years just to catch up if our population stayed the same. And where would the money come from? More than 50% are on benefits of some kind. So if we tax more the benefits would have to go up by the same for over 50%. Tax the rich? It was just tried. So many voted Labour instead of the extra tax. And that was only on elderly costs and not out of the pocket.

martcov · Jul 11, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Spain was also mentioned in the same bad light with very similar problems. I don't know how they escape it whilst in the euro and the EU. If they didn't have the euro and eu they could obviously devalue and inject money through different means. Still I hear Germany is doing well. Its not all bad news.

Actually it is indeed not all bad news. Spain for example, is coming back. The Eurozone is recovering. People are looking to reform the EU. The 27 are pulling together more because of Brexit.

How are things going in the British government? How's inflation doing in the U.K.? What is happening with inward investment to the UK? How's the pound doing? What direction is the unemployment forecast suggesting? What's the good news in the U.K.?

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

martcov said:
What hasn't it been blamed for? Far easier to answer ...

As usual no answer for my question other than another question.

Kingokings204 · Jul 11, 2017

martcov said:
Actually it is indeed not all bad news. Spain for example, is coming back. The Eurozone is recovering. People are looking to reform the EU. The 27 are pulling together more because of Brexit.

How are things going in the British government? How's inflation doing in the U.K.? What is happening with inward investment to the UK? How's the pound doing? What direction is the unemployment forecast suggesting? What's the good news in the U.K.?

Missing the point yet again. Head in the sand stuff. I agree the UK isn't great at the moment but more to do with an incompetent government and uncertainty. We have actually got a very good base and structure. Very low unemployment and yeah the pound has dropped but makes our exports a bit cheaper for a bit until it climbs back. Worth noting the pound was falling way before the eu referendum as you well know.

The point was Spain are not coming back any good news they have had is because they are starting from a very bad place to begin with. Yes caused by the euro. Youth unemployment is astonishing.

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

shmmeee said:
Can I just say:

Anyone worried about migration and voting for a climate denying party like UKIP or Conservative needs to have a word with themselves. This current flow will look like a drizzle compared to the downpour we'll get once the droughts and floods kick in.

Can I just say that I have never voted Conservative or Ukip. And I didn't vote for Brexit either.

What I don't like is people who like to put their view across but refuse to admit that there is two sides. They only see the good in what they want and the bad on the other side. Personally I think I am better off if we stay in the EU. But I don't think my children will be. Nobody knows anything for sure. But reading this thread you would expect Armageddon when we finally leave.

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

martcov said:
According to Trump.... the EU have an advantage over the USA through their negotiating skills. He actually praised them ( by mistake as he thought it was the Germans not the EU that negotiated with the USA ). The EU are already dealing with China and have just signed new deals with Canada and Japan. They don't need to do it all again which takes years, but Britain does.

It won't take years. We are already negotiating with them although because of the EU rules we can't finalise anything until we have left the EU.

martcov · Jul 11, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
We can blame our governments as that's who should be running and dealing with our country. You still don't get it. People voted for our governments to have the final say and to run our lands from policticans we elect. Not unelected wealthy beaurocrats in Brussels who propose legislation at will on us. It was rejected last June 23rd.

Wait a minute.--- I thought we were being ruled by mad Merkel from Berlin? Now it is unelected burocrats. Which is it? How come we still have the pound and get involved in wars? That is not possible if we are being ruled by unelected burocrats. Maybe you are reading the wrong papers. You can propose legislation, but who passes the legislation? Who elects the memembers of the European Council ( a clue: elected representatives ) and the European Parliament ( another clue: people like you )? And as a comparison, since you are so concerned with democracy...... who elects our Queen, who elects our Lords, who elects our judges and who elects our civil servants? When are we going to reject our undemocratic system? We could elect a senate, a president and introduce a council of the isles ( all countries in the U.K. To have their own parliaments ) and all elections by proportional representation. So, when we have done that, then you can slag off the EU for being undemocratic, but until then you should keep off the subject.

martcov · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
Can I just say that I have never voted Conservative or Ukip. And I didn't vote for Brexit either.

What I don't like is people who like to put their view across but refuse to admit that there is two sides. They only see the good in what they want and the bad on the other side. Personally I think I am better off if we stay in the EU. But I don't think my children will be. Nobody knows anything for sure. But reading this thread you would expect Armageddon when we finally leave.

I expect we won't be leaving for at least 5 years. We will be given a chance to negotiate our own deals with other countries before we finally leave. After all that there is no guarantee that we will be any better off. We may well be worse off. So no Armageddon, but a huge waste of time for an unknown outcome. Noone knows what will really happen, but I wouldn't have done it. Too risky.

Astute · Jul 11, 2017

martcov said:
Are you blaming the EU for Africans seeking a better life? Are you blaming the EU for a civil war in Syria? The big migration will come from Africa as there is a young population and little chance for people to feed themselves or have a decent standard of living. Syria and Iraq were created after the First World War by the victorious powers....- er.... that means including by us.... as was Kuwait which resulted in a recent war... it is more like the EU are being blamed for everything regardless. What happens when there is no EU to blame? Who will you blame then when things go wrong?

Another one who is twisting what I have said I see.

The discussion was on the effect on Italy. I am being told that it has had no effect but the blame is on the mafia. Go back and read it again.

We are only a small island. About 75% is farmland. A lot of what is left is prone to flooding. We don't have the space to let everyone keep coming here. If we were not forced to take anyone from the EU who wanted to come here we would be able to take many more who need a safe place. What is hard to understand about that?

martcov · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
It won't take years. We are already negotiating with them although because of the EU rules we can't finalise anything until we have left the EU.

Yes, but it will still take 2 or 3 years to finalise. Trump will not be giving us a great deal ( he has already said that EUs deal is unfavourable to the USA ), so we will be offered a worse one and we will not be accepting his first offers.

martcov · Jul 11, 2017

Astute said:
Another one who is twisting what I have said I see.

The discussion was on the effect on Italy. I am being told that it has had no effect but the blame is on the mafia. Go back and read it again.

We are only a small island. About 75% is farmland. A lot of what is left is prone to flooding. We don't have the space to let everyone keep coming here. If we were not forced to take anyone from the EU who wanted to come here we would be able to take many more who need a safe place. What is hard to understand about that?

We still wouldn't take many refugees. We would just find another reason not to take many.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

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