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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (20 Viewers)

  • Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
  • Start date Jun 8, 2016
Forums New posts

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
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clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,131
Captain Dart said:
That's a joke about Spain right?

Spain
GDP per capita: 25,831.58 USD (2015) World Bank
Unemployment rate: 18.4% (Dec 2016) Eurostat
Gross domestic product: 1.199 trillion USD (2015) World Bank
Minimum wage: 825.65 EUR per month (Jan 2017) Eurostat
Government debt: 99.8% of GDP (2015) Eurostat
GDP growth rate: 3.2% annual change (2015) World Bank

UK
GDP per capita: 43,734.00 USD (2015) World Bank
Unemployment rate: 4.8% (Oct 2016) Eurostat
Gross domestic product: 2.849 trillion USD (2015) World Bank
Minimum wage: 1,396.90 EUR per month (Jan 2017) Eurostat
Government debt: 89.1% of GDP (2015) Eurostat
GDP growth rate: 2.3% annual change (2015) World Bank
Click to expand...

which part of currently are people failing to grasp.
Not it's economy is in better shape, not it has a better economy, just it is currently performing better.

And those GDP projections for the UK are well out based on the latest information.
 
Reactions: martcov

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,132
clint van damme said:
which part of currently are people failing to grasp.
Not it's economy is in better shape, not it has a better economy, just it is currently performing better.

And those GDP projections for the UK are well out based on the latest information.
Click to expand...

Think the UK's fell to 2% for 2016, not sure about Spain.
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,133
Sick Boy said:
An absolutely ridiculous post and sums you up pretty well.
Click to expand...
Yes...Brighton has an area called Kemptown where when I used to work the Brighton area (& "everyone who visits Brighton must surely be gay" attitude prevailed nationally at the time) had a population of about 15% gay, 20% junkie...& everyone else was just partying &/or leading a typical family life

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,134
clint van damme said:
which part of currently are people failing to grasp.
Not it's economy is in better shape, not it has a better economy, just it is currently performing better.

And those GDP projections for the UK are well out based on the latest information.
Click to expand...
What like TODAY you mean? That's coz they have lots of trade thanks to tourism whereas in the main we put our feet up at the weekend!

The fact is - there are 9 or more paprmeters to judge a nations economic performance. And if all 9 show that a country is performing badly - you can bet yer arse they will come out with a 10th in order to look better

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,135
skybluetony176 said:
Out of interest how does that compare to the respective 2016 figures between the two countries?
Click to expand...
A country mile difference unless you are trying to defend the EU in every way you can.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,136
Astute said:
A country mile difference unless you are trying to defend the EU in every way you can.
Click to expand...

the debate wasn't about trying to defend the EU though was it?
It was about trying to blame immigration for the woes of the nation, you've let yourself get side tracked.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,137
clint van damme said:
I never said Greece was performing better than us, I said in some areas. Our wage contraction is worse than Greece for example.
Spain is currently performing better than us.
Click to expand...
In what way is Greece better than the UK other than the weather and having a massive debt that they can't keep up with repayments on?
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,138
Astute said:
In what way is Greece better than the UK other than the weather and having a massive debt that they can't keep up with repayments on?
Click to expand...

wage contraction, ours is worse than theres. I think, and I could be wrong, that wage contraction in the UK is at it's worse ever, 3 quarters on the trot.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,139
clint van damme said:
the debate wasn't about trying to defend the EU though was it?
It was about trying to blame immigration for the woes of the nation, you've let yourself get side tracked.
Click to expand...
Who blames all of our woes on immigration?

What I do see is stupid claims that Spain and Greece are doing better than us. And the same people try to gloss over the faults of the EU.

There are good parts about the EU. Just like there are bad.

And now I have been informed that there is no such thing as racism if both are the same colour. What a joke.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,140
clint van damme said:
wage contraction, ours is worse than theres. I think, and I could be wrong, that wage contraction in the UK is at it's worse ever, 3 quarters on the trot.
Click to expand...
So what do they earn on average and what do we earn?

You would make a good politician with the way you can twist the truth.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,141
And it isn't wage contraction here. It is wages going up slower than inflation. So what is inflation in Spain and Greece?
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,142
Astute said:
Who blames all of our woes on immigration?

What I do see is stupid claims that Spain and Greece are doing better than us. And the same people try to gloss over the faults of the EU.

There are good parts about the EU. Just like there are bad.

And now I have been informed that there is no such thing as racism if both are the same colour. What a joke.
Click to expand...

Spains predicted growth is better than ours, whatever else you say that's true.
Can't find the report which said UK wage contraction worse than Greece so until I do then fair enough. we're 2nd worse, just ahead of Greece, what a proud boast!

There's a much bigger picture with the NHS than the pressure put on it by immigration line even if that may have been the case in your particular experience.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,143
Astute said:
And it isn't wage contraction here. It is wages going up slower than inflation. So what is inflation in Spain and Greece?
Click to expand...

yeah, that's contraction.
 
Reactions: martcov

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,144
Astute said:
So what do they earn on average and what do we earn?

You would make a good politician with the way you can twist the truth.
Click to expand...

and so would you the way you go off topic when it suits.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,145
clint van damme said:
Spains predicted growth is better than ours, whatever else you say that's true.
Can't find the report which said UK wage contraction worse than Greece so until I do then fair enough. we're 2nd worse, just ahead of Greece, what a proud boast!

There's a much bigger picture with the NHS than the pressure put on it by immigration line even if that may have been the case in your particular experience.
Click to expand...
Spains predicted growth is from a very low base. They have been in recession for many years. Yet you want everyone to see it as a good point for Spain and a bad point for us.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,146
clint van damme said:
and so would you the way you go off topic when it suits.
Click to expand...
That is the very point. Try telling their unemployed that they are doing better than us. Without tourists from the UK they would be on a par with Greece. They earn much less than us. Their future prospects are massively lower than ours. Yet you are trying to make out that they are doing better than us :banghead:
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,147
Astute said:
Spains predicted growth is from a very low base. They have been in recession for many years. Yet you want everyone to see it as a good point for Spain and a bad point for us.
Click to expand...

the original argument was regarding the effects of immigration on the NHS and the wider economy.
I used some examples of economies with greater immigration out performing us who have higher percentage immigration. You've chosen to move away from that topic and keep going on about Spain for some reason.
I stand by my assertion that the main reason the NHS is in crisis isn't because of immigration.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,148
clint van damme said:
the original argument was regarding the effects of immigration on the NHS and the wider economy.
I used some examples of economies with greater immigration out performing us who have higher percentage immigration. You've chosen to move away from that topic and keep going on about Spain for some reason.
I stand by my assertion that the main reason the NHS is in crisis isn't because of immigration.
Click to expand...

Maybe not but it doesn't help. The most interesting bit in this article is on the EU card

If the NHS needs more money, why not collect from health tourists? | The Spectator
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,149
Grendel said:
Maybe not but it doesn't help. The most interesting bit in this article is on the EU card

If the NHS needs more money, why not collect from health tourists? | The Spectator
Click to expand...

Can't argue with that. Wonder how promptly other EU countries collect their dues from us?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,150
clint van damme said:
the original argument was regarding the effects of immigration on the NHS and the wider economy.
I used some examples of economies with greater immigration out performing us who have higher percentage immigration. You've chosen to move away from that topic and keep going on about Spain for some reason.
I stand by my assertion that the main reason the NHS is in crisis isn't because of immigration.
Click to expand...
So the millions of people who have come to live here have had no effect on the NHS?
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,151
Astute said:
So the millions of people who have come to live here have had no effect on the NHS?
Click to expand...

I didn't say they had no effect, but I think you know that. I said, more than once, that they are not the main reason for the NHS crisis.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,152
This is ridiculous, without migrants the NHS would collapse.
 
Reactions: dadgad

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,153
Sick Boy said:
This is ridiculous, without migrants the NHS would collapse.
Click to expand...

But that would be controlled migration whereby those who were considered as contributors would be granted access and those who didn't would not.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,154
Grendel said:
But that would be controlled migration whereby those who were considered as contributors would be granted access and those who didn't would not.
Click to expand...

Good luck with maintaining the same level over the next few years in the current climate. How would you address the ever inceasing shortage of nurses and midwives, especially over the last year?

There's plenty of bile on this thread about migrants on here an bizarrely mixing them up with refugees in some cases.
 
Reactions: Ian1779 and martcov

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,155
Grendel said:
But that would be controlled migration whereby those who were considered as contributors would be granted access and those who didn't would not.
Click to expand...

Is Astute not referring to resident immigrants though who are potentially contributors through NI payments as opposed to the 'NHS tourists' in the article you linked.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,156
skybluetony176 said:
Out of interest how does that compare to the respective 2016 figures between the two countries?
Click to expand...

I don't have them, but it isn't like there has been an marked change in either is it! Spains unemployment rate will still be terrible compared the UK & the Spaniards will still be paid a lot less. They would have to perform better than the UK for decades to catch up, that won't happen.
 
Reactions: Astute

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,157
Sick Boy said:
Good luck with maintaining the same level over the next few years in the current climate. How would you address the ever inceasing shortage of nurses and midwives, especially over the last year?

There's plenty of bile on this thread about migrants on here an bizarrely mixing them up with refugees in some cases.
Click to expand...

There was a midwife (British) in the question time audience in the week talking about how midwives are abandoning the NHS in their droves (both British and immigrant midwives) because of pay and conditions.

The notion that there could be selective immigration to fill gaps in the NHS seems very naive and ignoring the bigger issues in the NHS and the brexit effect on attracting, or not attracting as the case may be, the "right" sort of immigrants.

Brexit is making the UK less attractive to immigrants whether they be the "right" type or not and that's before we even leave.
 
Reactions: martcov and Sick Boy
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,158
Astute said:
Facts like it has caused a housing shortage, shortage in hospital beds and that you can't get to see a doctor or dentist easily in many areas.
Click to expand...
It hasn't.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,159
Captain Dart said:
I don't have them, but it isn't like there has been an marked change in either is it! Spains unemployment rate will still be terrible compared the UK & the Spaniards will still be paid a lot less. They would have to perform better than the UK for decades to catch up, that won't happen.
Click to expand...

No it won't but it's predicted that the UK will slip to between 7th or 9th by 2020/21.
I'm not sure how accurate those predictions can be given the current volatility surrounding brexit but hopefully they're either scaremongering or our wealth won't change it will just be emerging economies over taking us.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 1, 2017
  • #4,160
Deleted member 5849 said:
It hasn't.
Click to expand...

It really hasn't. We're set to be an estimated one million homes short in the UK within a few years yet net migration in the UK stands at around 250K and falling so the maths simply don't back up the theory that immigration has caused a housing crisis. And that's before you consider many immigrants live in HMO's and many are here building homes so actually benefiting the housing stock. The problem is a lack of investment in house building.

Same arguments go for the NHS, immigrants are net contributors to the UK economy so therefore help fund the NHS and the NHS is full of immigrant workers working to bring down things like waiting lists. A lack of investment is again the real issue.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy and clint van damme
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 2, 2017
  • #4,161
Sick Boy said:
This is ridiculous, without migrants the NHS would collapse.
Click to expand...
No it wouldn't - but without so much management hierarchy dogma it could thrive!

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 2, 2017
  • #4,162
Sick Boy said:
Good luck with maintaining the same level over the next few years in the current climate. How would you address the ever inceasing shortage of nurses and midwives, especially over the last year?

There's plenty of bile on this thread about migrants on here an bizarrely mixing them up with refugees in some cases.
Click to expand...
There isn't a shortage of British Nurses. We just need to entice them back from Australia, NZ & US

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
K

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 2, 2017
  • #4,163
skybluetony176 said:
It really hasn't. We're set to be an estimated one million homes short in the UK within a few years yet net migration in the UK stands at around 250K and falling so the maths simply don't back up the theory that immigration has caused a housing crisis. And that's before you consider many immigrants live in HMO's and many are here building homes so actually benefiting the housing stock. The problem is a lack of investment in house building.

Same arguments go for the NHS, immigrants are net contributors to the UK economy so therefore help fund the NHS and the NHS is full of immigrant workers working to bring down things like waiting lists. A lack of investment is again the real issue.
Click to expand...

But circa 600k came into the country and many Brits are emigrating so if many are coming in unqualified or unskilled and the British nurses and doctors etc are leaving then in the end we end up with a skills shortage and a worse society. I don't know the exact figures on this but the point is surely valid.
 
Reactions: Astute

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 2, 2017
  • #4,164
SkyblueBazza said:
There isn't a shortage of British Nurses. We just need to entice them back from Australia, NZ & US

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

think the horse has bolted on that one after the cheering tories voted not to give them a pay rise.
 
Reactions: martcov

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 4, 2017
  • #4,165
Dominic Cummings, director of the leave campaign, was asked on twitter last night 'Is there anything which could now happen (or not happen) which would make you now wish Leave had not won the referendum result?", his response was 'Lots! I said before ref was dumb idea, other things shdve been tried 1st. In some possible branches of the future leaving will be an error'.
 
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