The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (5 Viewers)

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 12, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
Tit! That is a worst case scenario.

Said report does tend to blast the conspiracy theory that the govt was not preparing but merely sitting on their collective arse twiddling their thumbs though doesn't it?

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Whether it is worst case scenario or most likely scenario is up for debate. There are those that claim to have seen the same report as most likely scenario and the title has been changed (It's all a bit 'In The Loop'). It could be that they've reassessed but it would be incredible if the exact same scenario they previously thought was most likely was now identical to worst case.

But the thing about preparedness is that they were supposed to release all the documents and if all they've got is 6 pages of rather vague and generic points on a limited number of things doesn't suggest they've been working their arses off either. Personally I think there is more than this, but if that's the case they've not complied with the court order.

So they've either defied the court or not done a huge amount of preparation. Neither of which reflect very well.

Grendel · Sep 12, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Already made the point that it was originally base case scenario. Some people are happy to bury their heads in the sand. That’s before you even get into that government can’t make all the preparations as they’ve shut Parliament and Parliament can’t pass the bills that need passing either in time for a no deal brexit on the 31st of October or allowing enough time to implement them. Seems to me that a responsible government either would have left parliament open and postponed conference season or extends the brexit deadline and choose to do either or of its own free will..

A responsible opposition would have called a no confidence motion in the government and either formed one itself of had an election

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 12, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Already made the point that it was originally base case scenario. Some people are happy to bury their heads in the sand. That’s before you even get into that government can’t make all the preparations as they’ve shut Parliament and Parliament can’t pass the bills that need passing either in time for a no deal brexit on the 31st of October or allowing enough time to implement them. Seems to me that a responsible government either would have left parliament open and postponed conference season or extends the brexit deadline and choose to do either or of its own free will..

It does seem surprising that any of the parties would think that conference season is more important than dealing with this issue. Doesn't reflect well on any of them - seems the politics is more important than the governing.

Grendel · Sep 12, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It does seem surprising that any of the parties would think that conference season is more important than dealing with this issue. Doesn't reflect well on any of them - seems the politics is more important than the governing.

How will it deal with the issue exactly?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 12, 2019

Grendel said:
How will it deal with the issue exactly?

I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

The point is that parliament would have been closed for three weeks at this time anyway for conferences, just a few weeks before the deadline. This is vital time that could be used for parliament to debate, prepare and try to pass legislation in preparation for Brexit, whether it is deal or no deal.

Now I'm sure you'll say "but parliament will just bloxk or vote down anything put forward anyway" which I can't disprove but you can't prove either. But at least there would be the ability to try, which would reflect better on the government. They'd have got better public support had they decided to postpone conference than prorogue parliament because it makes them look active and willing to work to sort out the issue, rather than just trying to ignore parliament, when one of the main supposed desires of Brexit was control by our sovereign parliament.

It would be interesting if the govt now decided to recall parliament and then tried to pass a motion to postpone conference season to increase the time available to debate and try to prepare for Brexit. How would those standing around parliament demanding it be reopened react? They'd have to agree to it otherwise their little protest would look silly.

djr8369 · Sep 12, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
As you believe our economy will collapse post Brexit the hedge fund gains will be very short lived.
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Not how it works. The immediate gains will be locked in straight away as they seem to be shorting the pound. What they will then do is use the profit to buy distressed businesses and public assets, the government will be telling us how we can’t afford certain things now or that that they can become more competitive run by the private sector and they will then sell those assets to the very billionaires who bankroll the tories and leave campaigns.

It’s classic disaster capitalism.

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Grendel · Sep 12, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

The point is that parliament would have been closed for three weeks at this time anyway for conferences, just a few weeks before the deadline. This is vital time that could be used for parliament to debate, prepare and try to pass legislation in preparation for Brexit, whether it is deal or no deal.

Now I'm sure you'll say "but parliament will just bloxk or vote down anything put forward anyway" which I can't disprove but you can't prove either. But at least there would be the ability to try, which would reflect better on the government. They'd have got better public support had they decided to postpone conference than prorogue parliament because it makes them look active and willing to work to sort out the issue, rather than just trying to ignore parliament, when one of the main supposed desires of Brexit was control by our sovereign parliament.

It would be interesting if the govt now decided to recall parliament and then tried to pass a motion to postpone conference season to increase the time available to debate and try to prepare for Brexit. How would those standing around parliament demanding it be reopened react? They'd have to agree to it otherwise their little protest would look silly.

Try what? What would the government try and actually do? To my knowledge not one party has called for the conferences to be cancelled and even if they were Parliament is paralysed.

Isn’t the amending WA going back in October anyway? Also the Eu summit is not until October

The government have lost the Order Paper and the opposition are abusing the intent of the Parliament Act to try and keep parliament open. Johnson should suspend it until an election or no confidence motion is called.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 12, 2019

djr8369 said:
Not how it works. The immediate gains will be locked in straight away as they seem to be shorting the pound. What they will then do is use the profit to buy distressed businesses and public assets, the government will be telling us how we can’t afford certain things now or that that they can become more competitive run by the private sector and they will then sell those assets to the very billionaires who bankroll the tories and leave campaigns.

It’s classic disaster capitalism.

You would expect them to 'cash in' on their positions in the weeks and months following Brexit to realise their gains. They would then be buying struggling businesses or providing loans to 'help' so they can profit there, whilst also changing their position in the markets to benefit from any potential recovery.

So even if we manage to recover to the same position they've profited from the downturn and then profited again from the recovery.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 12, 2019

Grendel said:
Try what? What would the government try and actually do? To my knowledge not one party has called for the conferences to be cancelled and even if they were Parliament is paralysed.

Isn’t the amending WA going back in October anyway? Also the Eu summit is not until October

The government have lost the Order Paper and the opposition are abusing the intent of the Parliament Act to try and keep parliament open. Johnson should suspend it until an election or no confidence motion is called.

Try to break the impasse. I admit chances of them doing it are low, but it'd reflect better on them with the public if they kept trying that just stop parliament. How they'd do that I don't know - seems like Boris' only remaining option as you say is another rehashed WA (despite not having a lot of time to renegotiate it and even then chances of further concessions are minimal at best), which he voted against and the likes of the ERG will likely turn down as well.

I'm aware no-one has called for conference season to be postponed and that it'd be an irregular thing to do. I just think it'd be interesting if they did because parliament being open to sort out Brexit takes precedence. I think it'd score some Brownie points with the people and if a GE is on the way in the near future it could help sway a few people. I'd have thought it'd be something you'd like because it basically calls the bluff of all those in parliament who are outraged at it being closed. To then say "ok, we'll keep it open then" how are they going to react? If they say "no, we want it shut for conference" they look a bit silly and disingenuous don't they.

SkyblueBazza · Sep 12, 2019

djr8369 said:
Mostly this preparation was done under the previous government.

Also the main criticism regarding twiddling of thumbs in reference to negotiating another deal rather than preparing for no deal as the government was telling everyone they were pulling out all the stops while in reality doing nothing.

It is difficult to keep up with the lies though.

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So first we are a shambles because we have not been preparing...but the preparation has mostly been done by the previous govt? But they didn't tell us much about such preparations at the time so we're labelled as being a bit useless. Interesting point...so the only preparation left was for a no deal?

As for ypur second point, don't you think it is hypocritical to critisice for not negotiating with the other party who have said the WA as it is is the only deal? Of course besides saying that there is no room for any more negotiation, but then said they will talk, then they want plans from the UK, so they cannot or will not negotiate on them...if that was the other way around loads of people would be calling the govt liars & up in arms about it.

The reality is that civil servants both sides are busily thrashing things out in readiness for discussions on a final agreement when heads of govt next sit. The only stumbling block will be Macron's desire to cement France as the EU financial hub (for Tony's benefit - pure money talks louder than wine & cheese)...That could lead to a no deal...otherwise there is still almost certainly going to be a deal.

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Grendel · Sep 12, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Try to break the impasse. I admit chances of them doing it are low, but it'd reflect better on them with the public if they kept trying that just stop parliament. How they'd do that I don't know - seems like Boris' only remaining option as you say is another rehashed WA (despite not having a lot of time to renegotiate it and even then chances of further concessions are minimal at best), which he voted against and the likes of the ERG will likely turn down as well.

I'm aware no-one has called for conference season to be postponed and that it'd be an irregular thing to do. I just think it'd be interesting if they did because parliament being open to sort out Brexit takes precedence. I think it'd score some Brownie points with the people and if a GE is on the way in the near future it could help sway a few people. I'd have thought it'd be something you'd like because it basically calls the bluff of all those in parliament who are outraged at it being closed. To then say "ok, we'll keep it open then" how are they going to react? If they say "no, we want it shut for conference" they look a bit silly and disingenuous don't they.

No as parliament have taken control - the government have lost the Order Paper - the opposition is now responsible for parliament - I think strategically this is great for the Tories

The opposition look frightened of being in government and want to pull the strings but shy away from responsibility

Trying to get court orders might look very clever but the public will not look at it favourably - this is the only opposition that is trying to control parliament without having the courage to sit in the government seats

The government should refuse to re open parliament until the opposition vote they down through the correct process established by the parliament act. They are abusing the intent of the act and that is not in dispute.

Johnson has had in the face of it the worst start of any PM. In any other situation (major was fairly similar) the opposition would be light years ahead in the polls. The fact is though they are not and strategically that’s going to give a lot of encouragement and I suspect every court action and every embarrassing refusal by the opposition to try and hide from the electorate and hold Johnson up as s sacrificial lamb will sit go well with a lot of people

SkyblueBazza · Sep 12, 2019

shmmeee said:
It’s all theyve got.

No?

Do you literally believe every word proven liar Boris Johnson says? It’s been confirmed multiple times this isn’t worst case it’s most likely. You can literally compare the leaked version to this and they’ve just changed the title.

How are you so gullible?

1. Who are 'they'?
2. Do I believe every word he says is a lie & every action seeks to damage the UK? No I don't. Believe everything? No I don't.
3. We have gone over & over this sort of thing. You think leavers (& me & others like me) are gullible. Maybe look at yourself believing the EU is not fleecing wealthier nations & heading towards a federal state & has no intention to reform...how gullible are you. Or you may be in favour of that?

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SkyblueBazza · Sep 12, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
The original report was base line scenario, the government had it changed to worse case scenario.

They can only treat you like a pleb if you’re compliant enough to behave like one.

A conspiracy theory?

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SkyblueBazza · Sep 12, 2019

shmmeee said:
The thing that blows my mind with all this is the way so many people switch from “you can’t trust politicians and government is useless” to believing every word that comes from the government’s mouth and demanding the biggest government project since the war be done immediately at any cost without any checks or balances.

But not trusting & govt is useless is your/Tony/Sick Boy/Mart's mantra!!! For me it is valid in every country AND the EU!

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SkyblueBazza · Sep 12, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
If the government was prepared there would be mitigation against the risks, there isn't.

But they are being critisised for identifying needs & (no doubt currently) putting measures in place

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djr8369 · Sep 12, 2019

There hasn’t been anywhere near enough prep to make no deal realistic. That’s not the same as what prep has been done being done by the previous government.

No it’s not hypocritical as the E.U. aren’t saying they’re trying to negotiate a deal when they’re not. How is that difficult to understand?

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fernandopartridge · Sep 12, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
But they are being critisised for identifying needs & (no doubt currently) putting measures in place

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What measures are they putting in place? This document exists to highlight a range of things the only mitigation for is leaving with a deal which they have shown no intention on doing.

djr8369 · Sep 12, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
But they are being critisised for identifying needs & (no doubt currently) putting measures in place

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No they’re being criticised for downplaying the problems associated with no deal, pretending to try and negotiate a deal, refusing to make information public, lying to the select committee, doctoring the documents before release to cover previous lies, shutting down parliament when it needs to be passing bills as part of no deal prep, lying about the reason for shutting down parliament, anything I’ve missed?

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skybluetony176 · Sep 12, 2019

Grendel said:
A responsible opposition would have called a no confidence motion in the government and either formed one itself of had an election

What are you saying exactly? That Boris and his government are incompetent or you find it annoying that the opposition won’t play his silly games?

skybluetony176 · Sep 12, 2019

Grendel said:
How will it deal with the issue exactly?

It allows parliament to debate the issues and pass bills to deal with them.

Grendel · Sep 12, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
What are you saying exactly? That Boris and his government are incompetent or you find it annoying that the opposition won’t play his silly games?

Well the opposition think he’s competent

Grendel · Sep 12, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
It allows parliament to debate the issues and pass bills to deal with them.

No it doesn’t it allows the opposition to take control of the Order Paper and make laws on the hoof

skybluetony176 · Sep 12, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
A conspiracy theory?

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It’s from Dr David Nichols who was involved in writing it and had an argument live on air with Rees-Mogg over the wording and content. Rees-Mogg then said some ridiculous things about him in Parliament and when Dr Nichols challenged him to repeat them outside of Parliament Rees-Mogg begrudgingly apologised. No conspiracy theory, it was straight from a horses mouth.

skybluetony176 · Sep 12, 2019

Grendel said:
Well the opposition think he’s competent

I think you’re the only person I know who thinks he’s competent so that’s highly unlikely.

skybluetony176 · Sep 12, 2019

Grendel said:
No it doesn’t it allows the opposition to take control of the Order Paper and make laws on the hoof

You voted leave for a parliamentary democracy, you championed the 2017 general election predicted Corbyn to the history books so what are you complaining about. You’re reaping your rewards. Enjoy.

Grendel · Sep 12, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
I think you’re the only person I know who thinks he’s competent so that’s highly unlikely.

No the opposition do as they will not issue a no confidence vote

Grendel · Sep 12, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
You voted leave for a parliamentary democracy, you championed the 2017 general election predicted Corbyn to the history books so what are you complaining about. You’re reaping your rewards. Enjoy.

I’m not sure what that actually means. Corbyn is still in the opposition. I’m pointing out that the so called taking control is exactly the opposite and an affront

I am reaping rewards yes as my pension fund was focussed on this eventuality - so while you made a few quid by purchasing some euros in advance my pension fund has grown by £40,000 in 12 weeks

SkyblueBazza · Sep 12, 2019

djr8369 said:
There hasn’t been anywhere near enough prep to make no deal realistic. That’s not the same as what prep has been done being done by the previous government.

No it’s not hypocritical as the E.U. aren’t saying they’re trying to negotiate a deal when they’re not. How is that difficult to understand?

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Hasn't there oh ye the font of all knowledge?
The previous govt arrogantly assumed the WA would finally get accepted didn't it?

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SkyblueBazza · Sep 12, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
What measures are they putting in place? This document exists to highlight a range of things the only mitigation for is leaving with a deal which they have shown no intention on doing.

That is untrue. They have said they prefer a deal. Like everyone has said all along. The May govt came back with what they thought was the best they could get. Parliament said "not good enough", the EU said no more negotiation & publically say they have heard nothing. I don't believe nothing is happening on that score either. Surely you can see you have to start somewhere? I guess some items were relatively simple & obvious, they were worked on first. The rest is no doubt being worked on now.
Take a chill pill chaps!

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SkyblueBazza · Sep 12, 2019

djr8369 said:
No they’re being criticised for downplaying the problems associated with no deal, pretending to try and negotiate a deal, refusing to make information public, lying to the select committee, doctoring the documents before release to cover previous lies, shutting down parliament when it needs to be passing bills as part of no deal prep, lying about the reason for shutting down parliament, anything I’ve missed?

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Conspiracy theory?

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djr8369 · Sep 12, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
Conspiracy theory?

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What?

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shmmeee · Sep 12, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
Every time we buy stuff on the cheap...we are probably doing just that for ourselves. Just a question of scale.

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Not defending sweatshops here, but most have queues out the door of people wanting to work there rather than live in crippling poverty or survive on a farm.

Not sure where the line of poor people demanding higher food and electricity prices is.

shmmeee · Sep 12, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It does seem surprising that any of the parties would think that conference season is more important than dealing with this issue. Doesn't reflect well on any of them - seems the politics is more important than the governing.

Don’t know about the others, but to be fair Labour needs a conference to finalise its Brexit policy before the election.

But yeah, generally I’d have cancelled them if I was anyone but BXP or the Tories. Just for the optics.

skybluetony176 · Sep 12, 2019

Grendel said:
I’m not sure what that actually means. Corbyn is still in the opposition. I’m pointing out that the so called taking control is exactly the opposite and an affront

I am reaping rewards yes as my pension fund was focussed on this eventuality - so while you made a few quid by purchasing some euros in advance my pension fund has grown by £40,000 in 12 weeks

Bullshit cough cough bullshit.

Grendel · Sep 12, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Bullshit cough cough bullshit.

Yes Tony your Euro comment was - I assume you are referring to my last paragraph?

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