THE DIAMOND IS FLAWED - Let us now start winning UGLY !!! (1 Viewer)

Thorn has publicly stated that he will never play 4-4-2 and that the diamond formation is here to stay. So that is that.

doesnt make a jot of difference, there is something VERY wrong with our club

even Derren Brown is scratching his head

Let's play 4-4-2 and watch McSheffreys awefull defending down the flanks again. :facepalm:

Not personally disagreeing with the post but weren't we playing ugly football this time last year under Boothroyd and fans were complaining.....?

Thorn brought a new formation, attacking football and a few wins then everybody was happy....

Now it's ok to hoof again?

Just asking.

When Deegan came on, we were more like 4-4-2. The diamond looked sadly lacking, hasn't really done the trick all season. Counting on Christie and Hussey to be our flair link players has not paid a goal dividend. The truth of the matter is that the players who are supposed to be comfortable on the ball and offer something going forward from the middle of the park are letting us down with ineffectual performances.

johnniericoh said:

Tippex9,

Those "few" wins under Thorn last season were 3 out of 10 - season to date 2 wins out of 14 - patience is running on empty at moment.

PUSB

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Totally agree, like I said I wasn't disagreeing with you and I was far happier 12 months ago but all we heard was people moaning about hoofball being ugly, now the diamond has lost it's appeal, where next?

I've been pondering lately about a possible switch towards a 4-3-2-1 (Christmas tree) formation, however I'd probably wait until the return of Cranie to use it.


Juke has natural ability at holding the ball up and McSheffrey despite being out of form at the moment would be able to feed off him. That should be a nice little combination and with McDonald ahead you have the freedom to play through the middle with the creativity of Gary and Lukas or move out wide where Clingan or a Christie can put in the crosses. We all know how good Cody is with his head.

It also allows for the added defensive security in Cranie playing that DM role. You'd get a no nonsense player in an important area of the pitch (I think Clingan dwells on the ball a little too much for that position) and if somehow we have a one goal lead with 10 minutes to go that extra defensive presence is already out there!

Not really sure what got me thinking of it but part of me thinks it might actually work if deployed.

Boothroyd wasn't just sacked because of the style of football. Results were also appalling. I really don't get this idea that passing football=ineffectual, long ball=good results! If you look at the top end of all the leagues and the teams that have been promoted from ours in recent seasons, you will indeed find that the opposite is more likely, if anything.

I actually think our results-and certainly goals against column-would be much worse if we were playing a long-ball game. Whilst we have the ball, the opposition can't score. A long ball is a lottery, a simple pass to a man in your team is logical and guarantees retained possession. I am sick to death of seeing City teams over the years who gave the ball straight to the opposition with meaningless forwards punts and wafts. Most teams we play against do this every game-at the Ricoh, usually resulting in jeers of derision! We very rarely do that anymore.

The other evidence I have for results being better under this style than hoofball is a phrase Thorn uses in most post-match interviews; "..the players buy into what we are trying to do". That is, learning how to play this style effectively. How bad would team spirit be if the players weren't enjoying the opportunity to play proper football? And do you really think these youngsters would look anywhere near so good, or be growing so much as players that they are interesting top-flight sides, if they were playing under Aidy Boothroyd and his rigid, inhibiting, stone-age tactics? Never mind that most still wouldn't be allowed in the senior dressing room yet, as they haven't played enough games under his pathetic rule!

Sammy alluded to our problem today post-match when he spoke about of final-ball; we either leave it too late, don't anticipate it quickly enough (eg today), or sometimes play it too soon. A lot of that is having so many youngsters, a lot is down to the front-two.

An aspect we've been sadly lacking is movement off-the-ball. Cody has gradually started to show glimpses as he gains fitness, and clearly likes to hang "off the shoulder" of the defender. He's obviously not in the King class, but at least pulls some men out of position and gives us an alternative to Lukas as a target. The midfielder who transforms us in this regard when confident and on form is Bigirimana; the first half display against Burnley and the second at Leeds are the first times he's played his natural game, and his constant darting into space and dropping into pockets should be a lesson to some of his more senior colleagues. Lets hope he can give that our side on his return alongside an improving Cody and a slightly resurgent Sammy, because McSheffrey has simply stopped doing something that was previously his strongest asset in the "hole" role.

As for 442... WE DON'T HAVE ANY WINGERS. Bell was originally a CM and has no pace; that's where Baker sees his natural position being, he drifts inside if out wide, and he can't cross; and McSheffrey can't defend, has no stamina and has no pace. Bell and Baker are always cutting onto their wrong foot if played wide-left. We can't play our full-backs there as we only have 2 and one's just got injured. The reason Thorn switched to our present formation was due to a plethora of CM's and no wide men. In simple terms, now:

Can Play 4 CM Roles (including hole)

Sammy
Gael
Connor
Bell
Baker
McSheffrey
Deegan

Can Play Wide (badly)

Baker
Bell
McSheffrey
ROD

Clearly, the former offers us far more options, allows us to balance ingredients depending on the type of player for a given situation, has been the ONLY option with McSheffrey and Baker injured, and is the only formation available that allows us to maintain even a semblance of competition for places in the first team. Is Thorn going to be given the money to go out and sign a couple of pacy wide-men, even someone like Ryan Hall from L2? No he is not.

Its a results business at the end of the day, all I want to do is win! I don't really care how we do it, all I care about is winning football matchs. For half a season last yr we seemed to do it alot! Since the Norwich home game last season we have only won 6 games??? 1 win in 16 with Bothroyd and 5 in 25 With Thorn!

If thorn wants to keep his job he needs to mix it up alot more, we don't attack enough so the football we play isnt attacking ! We are to predictable and that is why we have lost so many points from winning positions!

As a result if fans would prefer it, a better fresh backroom staff could be the way forward!!! Harrison hasn't exactly helped the club as he ?

The diamond doesnt work. We play the same week in week out & every other team in this league knows how we play & set up there team to play against it. You dont score goals by passing sideways & backwards & you only have to look at our goals for column to see that.

Being pigheaded & coming out with a statement that we will never play 442 it stupid as is not allowing Freddy anywhere near the squad when its so small & we're paying his wages. But at the end of the day we could have Van Persie upfront and we still wouldnt score goals cus we dont pass forward & have no movement. Theses things are because of the coaching & formation we play not because SISU.

Something has to change cus if it doesnt then theres only one way we're going and everyone knows it

Ccfc4ever - if we had van persie up front he would create movement and options because he's a world class player. So we would actually create more/score more. We miss king and Gunnar - if they were still he we'd have scored a lot more goals.

We'd still have to pass forward and we dont.

But we would if there was better movement and more forward options. None of the midfielders make a forward run after they pass the ball. If there are options they will pass it forward.

Its about opinions. There are times when we could pass it forward and we dont. Yes movement is 1 thing that stops a forwatd pass sometimes but again thats down to coaching. When all said and done we all just want our team to do better

i do think the coaching is the main problem as well as tactical changes on match day!

to many times we invite pressure onto ourselves needlessly! we also don't look up wen we have the ball, Cody was all over there bk 4 yesterday and had the beating of all of them! Through balls, ball over the top into space and he will get on to them! we could go on here, pass and move, attacking the space to draw your man, looking for the easy option and not rushing!!! All these have not been included in the current playing squad! You only get better at this through coaching and management!!

That's not coaching, that's called having the worst playing budget in the division. You get what you pay for. Plus I think maybe Thorn and Harrison deserve a little credit for the progress the youngsters, including Hussey, have made this season. Who do you think has coached those improvements, Ken?!

Plus a few people have missed one of my points...hoofing it long isn't "attacking", that was Aidys cop-out excuse for shite 80's football. It requires no real ability, and generally loses you the ball rather than gets you a goal! Some people have very very very very very short memories indeed.

we need a plan b, maybe fans shouldnt have moaned bout AB?

i know we were playing cack but i just wanna see a manager given 3-4 years at the club because quick fixes just dont work

saying that we might need to sack thorn come march to get the new manager honeymoon period to keep us up!

Well as people are stating we have crap players then if hoof ball takes no ability maybe we should try it. It certainly got us more points that the diamond has & before people shout about having short memories i never wanted Boothroyd out. There are no quick fixes we've tried it time and time again but we have to give ourselves a chance.

If you dont get the ball into the box you dont score its simple.

Yeah Hoof did well until after the 4th December, we were 5th 33 points from 20 games. We then picked up 8 points in 16 games after than dropping to 19th in the league - teams had worked out how to play against hoofball - that's why he got the boot.

8 points from 16 games actually makes this season's form of 12 in 14 look quite good.

like you said if you don't get the ball into the box you can't score. Or in Hoofroyds case if you keep giving the ball away cheaply, you don't have any possession to put the ball into the box

johnniericoh said:

Just as a matter of interest what other Championship teams plays the "Diamond" - or indeed what Prem team adopts this formation ???

PUSB

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I think Norwich were promoted last year playing the diamond and Chlesea have played it a lot in the past with players like Lampard, Ballack, Essien, Deco, Mikel etc.
Like someone said in another post the 4-3-2-1 formation could be worth a look at it has served well for man city and others in recent times.

CCFC said:

I think Norwich were promoted last year playing the diamond and Chlesea have played it a lot in the past with players like Lampard, Ballack, Essien, Deco, Mikel etc.
Like someone said in another post the 4-3-2-1 formation could be worth a look at it has served well for man city and others in recent times.

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Exactly the formation will only work if you have the right players at your disposal. We haven't, Thorn needs to realise what formation is best for this squad because the diamond certainly isn't the right one. Anyone who was there yesterday will back that up

we'll be lucky to win, brinner & nlhwc have hit the proverbial 'nail on the head',
starve a club & they will fail,
this extreme example of parsimonious activity is a 'total joke',
oh orange one, defend your stance !!!

lots of bridges to build eh ?

f.o.y.d.b.

& PUSB

Formations don't win games....players do and the fact is we don't have the players to do that

Tonylinc said:

Formations don't win games....players do and the fact is we don't have the players to do that

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You honestly don't believe that do you? It's a team game and managers use the a formation to suit the players. Take for example Blackpool the other year. Apart from a Charlie Adam a very average team and looked what happened to them?

Having the best players dont meant a best team, it's how you bring the best out of players what wins you games

It all boils down to that you play a system that suits the players at your disposal. If the players just are'nt good enough thats not Thorns fault. Yes if he was able to get in 2-3 loan players then he would possibly have options to change the system but at the moment thats not possible.

sky blue john said:

It all boils down to that you play a system that suits the players at your disposal. If the players just are'nt good enough thats not Thorns fault. Yes if he was able to get in 2-3 loan players then he would possibly have options to change the system but at the moment thats not possible.

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And the fact that we have been unable to play our strongest or nearly strongest foe a sustained period of 8+ games. We haven't managed to put out our strongest side full stop and never been able to name the same starting line up more than 2 games running.

We are not the only team unable to play our best team. The problem is our lack of numbers in certain areas, not the system played. Playing certain systems does not suddenly give us extra left backs or wingers. It don't give us attacking midfielders either.

Astute said:

We are not the only team unable to play our best team. The problem is our lack of numbers in certain areas, not the system played. Playing certain systems does not suddenly give us extra left backs or wingers. It don't give us attacking midfielders either.

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I know we're not the only team, but if you look back at the starting line up's and compare the different strike partnerships and midfield partners, different players playing in the hole,etc you can see why we've found it hard building a cohesive unit, we've started juke-Sheff, juke-platt, juke-rod and juke-Cody - 4 different strike partnerships in 14 league games, 4 players have played in the hole, sheffers, bell, rod, Thomas. Deegan, baker and sheffers have start just 16 games between them - bigi and Thomas have started 15. Even in the defence which wad unchanged for 10 games has since been combinations of keogh- Cameron, keogh-wood, Cameron-McPake in the last 4 games.

It's not just not being able to play your best team, we've struggled to play the same team for more than 2 games running.

We have no plan B. People have figured out the diamond formation and other managers change their tactics to defend against us. Just look at Howe against Burnley?

The thing is, when we get overun, we don't change.