the age old debate..............how good are we? (1 Viewer)

covcity4life · Mar 21, 2012

we just drew with the carling cup finalists who are chasing playoffs

yet few weeks ago vs a shit forest team we were shitter

i still maintain my opinion from start of the season that this team should hit 54pts like previous cov teams,i feel its due to mis management that we are not,now im not doing any thorn out shizzle here,im just saying our away form is abysmal and costing us a healthy mid table position,why? cos we sit back and wait to concede,today we attacked second half and scored 2,the only reason cardiff got a goal was because we sat back and defended a draw for some reason,we gave away the momentum,and thats bad management

saying that it looks like thorn is learning(leeds and cardiff late goals making up for ipswhich and blackpool recently)and maybe we can avoid the drop and look forward to next season with more experienced youth prospects

if we do i would like to keep thorn and see if how much he improves himself too.

as for this season,thats 4 games unbeaton now(albeit draws),we need to ensure its 5,but more importantly get 3 pts saturday,as for away,if we can take the game to cardiff we shouldnt fear anyone else this season now

we should not be bottom 3,now lets prove it

PUSB

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Mar 21, 2012

Don't forget late goal vs Barnsley

For me I think the squad is that of a relegation fight. I felt the squad was capable of surviving but only just by a few points or so. That is why I was so disappointed with the team before Christmas as we looked to be going down with out a fight then when we were about 8 points behind Bristol at one stage, the last few months have been better especially at home but tbh now we are doing the minimum I expected us to do before the season started, are season didn't start till boxing day when we beat Bristol which is bitterly disappointing as had the team shown up before we could already have at least 5-8 more points on the board.

covcity4life · Mar 21, 2012

agreed,i hope we dont rue that

i mean if carl baker didnt get sent off we should have had 3 on the opening day!!!!

LeamingtonBootBoy · Mar 22, 2012

The issue is that we only play one good half....

Astute · Mar 22, 2012

covcity4life said:
we just drew with the carling cup finalists who are chasing playoffs

yet few weeks ago vs a shit forest team we were shitter

PUSB

The same shit Forest team that just scored 7 at Leeds?

With their squad they should at least be challenging for the playoffs.

PhilWasn'tBabb · Mar 22, 2012

Yeah forest, dispute there league position are not a shit group of players, they should be pushing for the play offs.

Whilst I think a part of the problem has been naivety on ATs part. The major problem was the way the team was gutted over the closed season, you can loss that number of first players and expect children to fill in without it having an effect.

Whilst an escape from the drop would be great (just like the good old days). But next season is likely to be just as hard as this one give the current climate in football.

Otis · Mar 22, 2012

We are not good, but are not that bad. Not bad enough to have been in the bottom 3 since October 2011.

Players like Bell and Baker don't help. I really rate Baker to be honest, but he is as frustrating as Bell. You get one good performance from them once every 4-5 games. We have had that one spell when Baker played well twice in a row just before getting injured, but if you look back at both players, it is one good game in about every 4-5 games. We can't afford to carry passengers.

There has also been this thing where we only play well for one half. Last night we gave ourselves an uphill task before we even started to get our arses into gear. This is not just down to Thorn though is it, we have had this same conversation under other managers, especially Chris Coleman.

If you only play well for 45 minutes or less you are going to suffer the consequences.

We are not that bad. We should be in a relegation struggle but no way on God's earth should we have been entrenched in the bottom 3 for FIVE months. That has been underachieving without any doubt.

What we need now is consistent performances to get out of this mess. We need some more complete performances to help guide us to safety.

covcity4life · Mar 22, 2012

First have a good squad but on the day they did not play well, thats the point

stupot07 · Mar 22, 2012

The team/squad is pretty poor and deserves to be in the bottom 3/4 imo. Sure on a given day when all the players are bang on form we are a match for most teams, however out teams is full of inconsistency - Sheffers, Bell, Baker, Deegan and Sammy are a few examples of this. Our 2 most consistent players this season (Keogh and Cranie) have also had their moments, and the lack of goals particularly from the strikers is a big problem.

You point to last nights draw at Cardiff as a reason we should be doing better however this league can be full of surprise results.

Doncaster have got draws against West Ham and Reading this month (3rd and 2nd in league) - does that mean they have a better team than their league position gives them credit for? They also got beat at home by Millwall

Bristol City have beaten Southampton home and away this season (and drew with West Ham) - does that mean they have a better team than their league position give them credit for?

diggerdaley · Mar 22, 2012

I think the two loan players have made the difference.

Otis · Mar 22, 2012

diggerdaley said:
I think the two loan players have made the difference.

Think there is very much some truth in that. We have at last got some pace about us for once.

davebart · Mar 22, 2012

you cannot lose the players we have this season from a team that was already struggling and say the team is under-performing. We were always relegation favourites.

But after being 8 points adrift we have given ourselves a chance. Thorn should be given credit for that. The players will gain confidence from this run and hopefully enough wins will be gained to keep us up. Most likely at the expense of Bristol.

Otis · Mar 22, 2012

I would very much say we have been underperforming.

We have been in with a shout in nearly all our games, hardly ever getting totally outplayed.

Struggle, yes, bottom 3 for 5 months, not acceptable.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Mar 22, 2012

Otis said:
I would very much say we have been underperforming.

We have been in with a shout in nearly all our games, hardly ever getting totally outplayed.

Struggle, yes, bottom 3 for 5 months, not acceptable.

I definitely agree, up to Christmas the team massively underperformed and that was largely AT fault imo

Otis · Mar 22, 2012

The good thing is that Thorn appears to be learning and isn't making the same mistakes as he was previously, or at least not to the same degree.

Whether that is down to Harrison or him getting more to grips with the job I don't know, but a lot of the focus now has switched from what he does to what he says and that can only be a good thing. At the end of the day words are just words. We all know it's about what happens on the pitch.

I was very peeved at our lack of application in the first half last night. SSN described it as 'lying down and waiting to be beaten." Think we have to give credit to Thorn for his half-time team talk, as he seemed to have them all fired up for the 2nd 45 mins.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 22, 2012

Otis said:
I would very much say we have been underperforming.

We have been in with a shout in nearly all our games, hardly ever getting totally outplayed.

Struggle, yes, bottom 3 for 5 months, not acceptable.

This is the bit I struggle with. Given its been discussed many times over that our investment in the playing squad is within the lowest three in the league, why is a position within the bottom three unacceptable? Surely, it's entirely a level of return consummate with investment?

oldskyblue58 · Mar 22, 2012

Just to play devils advocate. If at the end of the season we stay up does this mean

1) we were too good to go down
2) AT was a good enough manager to keep us up
3) the squad was good enough to keep us up
4) to stay in this division you dont need to spend as much money as we might think
5) the players that left were not as big a miss as we thought
6) SISU were right to start sorting out the finances in the way they have
7) we are good enough to compete in this division but lack consistency
8) given the results we will need to stay up then early season was not good enough from the players and manager
9) the bookies got it wrong - not to mention a lot of fans

I know it hasnt been done yet or perhaps at all - but if we stay up seems to me folk can not have it both ways. Over a season you end up where you deserve to be. If we stay up it seems to me that a lot of people havent given the players, manager & club the credit they deserve, me included at times. If the finances improve because we stay up based on hard fiscal control then there are some pointed questions SISU could ask some of us

or do we try and have it all ways and call it a fluke

All this might of course be purely academic

but just a thought

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 22, 2012

As Thorn said some time ago, if we stay up we'll have 'swum the Channel with an oven on our backs' or words to that effect. That holds true, and would show that although you can stay up with bugger all finances, it'd be achieved by the skin of our teeth.

Otis · Mar 22, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
This is the bit I struggle with. Given its been discussed many times over that our investment in the playing squad is within the lowest three in the league, why is a position within the bottom three unacceptable? Surely, it's entirely a level of return consummate with investment?

Been unacceptable because we have had chances to win games and get draws from games and have competed on an even keel for the most part for most of the season.

My whole argument is that we are not that bad. If we had been in the bottom 3, had a little run moved to 6th from bottom, then returned to the bottom 3 and fluctuated like this for most of the season then I think that would have to have been expected. Permanently bottom 3 for 5 months. That is not acceptable.

If we kept getting beaten by a better side then I would accept what you are saying MMM. Not talking about better teams ........ better sides on the day. We have competed for the majority of games. There has been talk that we have fallen by the wayside late on in games because of the strength of the opposition etc. There may well have been a case for saying that. We have now though been scoring very, very late on ourselves, so that in some ways blows a bit of a hole in that theory.

We have proved this season that we are not that far off being a decent side. Been a number of games where we should have got points. We all know this. Had that been the case and we had got those extra points we would have been where Forest or Millwall are now most probably.

Thorn has said we are a midtable side. I disagree with him. I think we are a lower table Championship side.

Bottom 3 continually for 5 months is not acceptable in view of how competitive we have been in most matches.

covcity4life · Mar 22, 2012

stupot07 said:
The team/squad is pretty poor and deserves to be in the bottom 3/4 imo. Sure on a given day when all the players are bang on form we are a match for most teams, however out teams is full of inconsistency - Sheffers, Bell, Baker, Deegan and Sammy are a few examples of this. Our 2 most consistent players this season (Keogh and Cranie) have also had their moments, and the lack of goals particularly from the strikers is a big problem.

You point to last nights draw at Cardiff as a reason we should be doing better however this league can be full of surprise results.

Doncaster have got draws against West Ham and Reading this month (3rd and 2nd in league) - does that mean they have a better team than their league position gives them credit for? They also got beat at home by Millwall

Bristol City have beaten Southampton home and away this season (and drew with West Ham) - does that mean they have a better team than their league position give them credit for?

have doncaster and bristol competed in evry match????

fact is we are usually beaten by the odd goal which suggests were not a million miles away from where we need to be

to say we are a bottom 3 team and not lay any blame at the managers doorstep is bizzare

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 22, 2012

Very few times have we been convincingly beaten this season, which makes the league position harder to accept-and personally I'm sick of opposing managers and fans going 'I can't believe they're in the bottom 3' after beating us 1-0 or 2-1. It just emphasises where we could potentially be but for the worst away form in donkey's years.

Astute · Mar 22, 2012

Otis said:
Bottom 3 continually for 5 months is not acceptable in view of how competitive we have been in most matches.

Bottom 3 for 8 months, then getting out and staying out would do me this season.

So Otis, have you forgotten about our lack of strikeforce again? Last night showed us what happens when other players score other than our strikers, although Cody scored a great header

Grendel · Mar 22, 2012

We have been poorly organized and set up for away games. If Stockport and Rotherham in their relegation seasons can manage 4 away wins between then when only totalling 26 and 29 points all told respectively it shows that the away problem is not solely down to the players being poor. At home 8 teams have scored fewer than us I think.

Astute · Mar 22, 2012

kduffy said:
We have been poorly organized and set up for away games. If Stockport and Rotherham in their relegation seasons can manage 4 away wins between then when only totalling 26 and 29 points all told respectively it shows that the away problem is not solely down to the players being poor. At home 8 teams have scored fewer than us I think.

Pen missed, woodwork hit, own goal.......all in 1 game.....Come from behind twice.........set up wrong?........unlucky I would say. Not for the first time either.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Mar 22, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
Just to play devils advocate. If at the end of the season we stay up does this mean

1) we were too good to go down
2) AT was a good enough manager to keep us up
3) the squad was good enough to keep us up
4) to stay in this division you dont need to spend as much money as we might think
5) the players that left were not as big a miss as we thought
6) SISU were right to start sorting out the finances in the way they have
7) we are good enough to compete in this division but lack consistency
8) given the results we will need to stay up then early season was not good enough from the players and manager
9) the bookies got it wrong - not to mention a lot of fans

I know it hasnt been done yet or perhaps at all - but if we stay up seems to me folk can not have it both ways. Over a season you end up where you deserve to be. If we stay up it seems to me that a lot of people havent given the players, manager & club the credit they deserve, me included at times. If the finances improve because we stay up based on hard fiscal control then there are some pointed questions SISU could ask some of us

or do we try and have it all ways and call it a fluke

All this might of course be purely academic

but just a thought

We got a free pass because of Pompys admin so imo that rules 1), 2), 3), 4), 5), 9) out as based solely on results we would go down. I guess you could say 6) as it may have been us going into admin if the wages hadn't been cut.
I agree with points 8 and 7 as well though

stupot07 · Mar 22, 2012

The fact of the matter is we lack goals, I'm sure someone will point out that we have scored more at home than palace, etc. however, it's not just scoring goals but scoring vital goals that have cost us, which is mainly down to a lack of quality in the final third. I mean scoring when on top, scoring the vital second goal, that important equaliser, etc. Just a few off the top of my head - Juke penalty v reading, Sheff pen and Cody chance v Cardiff, Cody chance v Watford, cody 1-1 v burnley at home, platt had two great chances v palace in the first half, rod should have had a hatrick v Southampton in the FA cup, etc.

Our top scorer doesn't play for us, and our 3 remaining strikers have 6 goals in 38 league starts between them.

I posted the other day that 8/9 teams had created less chances than us, yet before last night we were the lowest scorers.

We're not clinical enough, and that is down to a lack of quality.

Btw I do think AT has been partially to blame but I also think the squad lacks quality, and that this is the main reason we are where we are.

You can point to the fact that we haven't been hammered very often, is that because our players are better than we think they? Or is it that AT has had then working in a good defensive shape? Is it that our two best and most consistent players are the centre back partnership? Is it that the team are working hard for each other?

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