Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
Hi all,
I came across something today that took my eye so I thought I would share.
I came across something today that took my eye so I thought I would share.
Yes, its an evolutionary pattern of thinking in football. The more it plays, the more it learns. Would be interesting to see what it would come up after a few months of running.
What idea? I'm confused.
Sorry, football in general.
It's only a matter time before something is going to come out which will be the football version of Chessbase or Ubisoft's Chessmaster.
What will that do though?
Still don't get the link, chess pieces can only do certain things and move into different places.
Footballers are dynamic.
Yes, it gives the starting point for performance analysis which can also be worked into any future work.
Doesn't that already exist though with GPS, pass completion, run completion, tackle completion etc?
Doesn't that already exist though with GPS, pass completion, run completion, tackle completion etc?
I was listening on the radio talking about football stats like pass completion, they were saying the next stage was to weight the quality of the passes/tackles/runs etc. John Stones has the highest pass success rate in the PL - but quantify that against someone like Alexis Sanchez who doesn't even rank in the top 200.
Doesn't gps do that? Heat maps?I just don't think they have a way of doing positional analysis yet. If they did then surely we would of seen this already.
Imagine having something like this running in the background comparing it to the positions of players in a team, and the decisions these players are making, if it was set up with the exact herustics the manager wanted the team to play with.
Doesn't gps do that? Heat maps?
I would say these are just rough estimates. The thing you need to tap into directly are the heuristics in the game.
Surely that's ok with chess pieces, but not with humans on a football pitch?
Yeah but gps can measure points, distance etcLol, you asking question faster then I can form answers.
It shouldn't matter in all honesty. They are both points on a playing field that can be measured be it they act in different ways.
But.gps can do that?individually, there is no way measuring the heuristics in the game and the choices of what are made. I guess what you are looking for is a programme to go on top of the tracking system to look at the group hereustics and the position of your team on the pitch compared with the opponents positions.
Phil, this is my specialist area (Machine Learning). Just to correct a few things:
- Chess doesn’t use Machine Learning. It’s solved brute force because every possible future position on the board can be calculated. So the computer just runs the numbers for every move and picks the best.
- In terms of neural nets 2010 is ancient. This uses an MLP, which is very basic and has no memory or anything higher order, just tries to map inputs to outputs.
- AFAICT it’s not a genetic/evolutionary algorithm either. The video confuses some terminology so maybe, but I’d assume it uses gradient descent for learning rather than a GE.
A better example of something that could evolve into a proper football sim would be DeepMind’s AlphaGo work, or their Atari playing stuff. This sort of high level planning and long term goal seeking would probably do better with a reinforcement learning approach than supervised learning.
If you’re interested this is a decent video on AlphaGo and another on the Atari stuff both from Google DeepMind.
And here is the latest RoboCup which is a better description of state of the art.
I’m not an RL specialist by any means, I work with ConvNets and regression mostly, so may have got some of the finer details wrong.
Make someone rich? :$What will that do though?
Still don't get the link, chess pieces can only do certain things and move into different places.
Footballers are dynamic.
Jeez you know your stuff young man.Phil, this is my specialist area (Machine Learning). Just to correct a few things:
- Chess doesn’t use Machine Learning. It’s solved brute force because every possible future position on the board can be calculated. So the computer just runs the numbers for every move and picks the best.
- In terms of neural nets 2010 is ancient. This uses an MLP, which is very basic and has no memory or anything higher order, just tries to map inputs to outputs.
- AFAICT it’s not a genetic/evolutionary algorithm either. The video confuses some terminology so maybe, but I’d assume it uses gradient descent for learning rather than a GE.
A better example of something that could evolve into a proper football sim would be DeepMind’s AlphaGo work, or their Atari playing stuff. This sort of high level planning and long term goal seeking would probably do better with a reinforcement learning approach than supervised learning.
If you’re interested this is a decent video on AlphaGo and another on the Atari stuff both from Google DeepMind.
And here is the latest RoboCup which is a better description of state of the art.
I’m not an RL specialist by any means, I work with ConvNets and regression mostly, so may have got some of the finer details wrong.
This is excellent stuff.
I remember following the Go games online when they took place.
The engines do use variations around a minimax algorithm with alpha beta pruning which is basically a brute force approach.
This should be a lot easier to explain.
Let say an engine is set up with opening theory and an endgame databases already in its system, you can use a football analogy of attacking and defending. It would be the middle game or midfield where the brute force approach takes place. Surely this can be better analysed then it is at the moment.
I think it is important to point out that chess engines aren't looking at every single move that could possibly be played in a course of a game. They are doing a depth search of a position to give the highest value return from the algorithm used. This higher value doesn't necessarily always mean piece count but a better positional advantage.
This is what beats Human opposition.
This is a great video on how far positional analysis has come.
Game Over Kasparov and the Machine - Documentary Mania
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