Stand up if you've never watched Wasps (4 Viewers)

Hutchwingsteinmiddle · Dec 30, 2017

Calista said:
That’s a neat summary of the point, and if it was that simple there would be absolutely no room for argument. But it’s not, because not all moves are exactly the same.

Many of the most vehement “anti-franchise, anti-Wasps” posters on here seem to think that London rugby clubs playing in places like Reading, Watford and High Wycombe is perfectly natural and OK, and doesn’t count as moving. Or Wasps could have moved from High Wycombe to West Ham to retain their identity. Some even seem comfortable with the outskirts of Birmingham as a location for the Sky Blues – indeed one prominent poster described the NEC as a “perfect” venue for Coventry City! How’s that for anti-franchise credentials?

This regional concept of belonging is a bit nebulous for me. Surely it’s not simply about travel time, how much parking there is and whether you can drive there in your company car. It’s about whether a club belongs in a specific place or not, and whether their fans care enough to stand up for that. Wasps supporters (after more than 10 years way outside the M25) didn’t, so I can’t see a lot of point fretting endlessly on their behalf in Christmas week three years later. Where does it get us? However, through the Sixfields episode our fans demonstrated beyond doubt that Coventry City can only play in Coventry. If people don’t think there’s a difference, fair enough.

In answer to the OP, I’ve never watched Wasps, but it’s not out of moral superiority. I just can’t see myself going to rugby matches. But IMO the people who go deserve to enjoy themselves without being subjected to vicious character assassination.

Lest we all forget, Jimmy Hill was a a great fan of the franchise system. He pumped £500K of City money into Detroit Express (they were subsequently re-located to Washington), and was going to use it as a possible feeder Club to Coventry. They came over here to play in 1977 or 1978 I remember going to the match. Hill also tried to rename Coventry ''Coventry Talbot'' as part of a sponsorship arrangement with Peugeot-Talbot at the time. He was on record as well (to the poster who referenced the NEC as a ''perfect'' venue) as saying City should build a mega stadium at the NEC and merge with a prominent Birmingham Club. The USA venture was ill-fated and perhaps the only project that blotted his visionary CV. But given his passion for the franchise system blended with his visionary view of football he would undoubtably have tried to embrace the arrival of Wasps to benefit the future of the football Club. I am sure the tenacious Gary Hoffman once he does get his paws of the Club will do likewise. He is a super-smart businessman.

Deleted member 4232 · Dec 30, 2017

Hutchwingsteinmiddle said:
Lest we all forget, Jimmy Hill was a a great fan of the franchise system. He pumped £500K of City money into Detroit Express (they were subsequently re-located to Washington), and was going to use it as a possible feeder Club to Coventry. They came over here to play in 1977 or 1978 I remember going to the match. Hill also tried to rename Coventry ''Coventry Talbot'' as part of a sponsorship arrangement with Peugeot-Talbot at the time. He was on record as well (to the poster who referenced the NEC as a ''perfect'' venue) as saying City should build a mega stadium at the NEC and merge with a prominent Birmingham Club. The USA venture was ill-fated and perhaps the only project that blotted his visionary CV. But given his passion for the franchise system blended with his visionary view of football he would undoubtably have tried to embrace the arrival of Wasps to benefit the future of the football Club. I am sure the tenacious Gary Hoffman once he does get his paws of the Club will do likewise. He is a super-smart businessman.

There's a bit of history here, thanks for the post. Welcome.

Grendel · Dec 30, 2017

Hutchwingsteinmiddle said:
Lest we all forget, Jimmy Hill was a a great fan of the franchise system. He pumped £500K of City money into Detroit Express (they were subsequently re-located to Washington), and was going to use it as a possible feeder Club to Coventry. They came over here to play in 1977 or 1978 I remember going to the match. Hill also tried to rename Coventry ''Coventry Talbot'' as part of a sponsorship arrangement with Peugeot-Talbot at the time. He was on record as well (to the poster who referenced the NEC as a ''perfect'' venue) as saying City should build a mega stadium at the NEC and merge with a prominent Birmingham Club. The USA venture was ill-fated and perhaps the only project that blotted his visionary CV. But given his passion for the franchise system blended with his visionary view of football he would undoubtably have tried to embrace the arrival of Wasps to benefit the future of the football Club. I am sure the tenacious Gary Hoffman once he does get his paws of the Club will do likewise. He is a super-smart businessman.

I don’t think Hill would have agreed with it at all and I don’t think a super smart businessman would have publically endorsed a fruitcake like Dale Evans

I was eleven in 87 · Dec 30, 2017

Grendel said:
I don’t think Hill would have agreed with it at all and I don’t think a super smart businessman would have publically endorsed a fruitcake like Dale Evans

I don’t necessarily agree with the first bit but I definitely agree with the second bit!!

withnail · Dec 30, 2017

London wasps are just an entertainment product like a box set on Sky or a nice day out at some soul destroying drone packed theme park.
Normally I wouldn't give a flying fcuk about them but unfortunately they're an unpleasant symptom of our current woes.
None of this is directly their fault...they're a bit like the puss in an infected wound, they didn't cause the wound but they're the irritating uncomfortable infection making it all the more painful.
Unfortunately a good wipe with some Dettol won't shift them.

I feel sorry for their real fans down London. Spare a thought for them.

dongonzalos · Dec 30, 2017

Grendel said:
I don’t think Hill would have agreed with it at all and I don’t think a super smart businessman would have publically endorsed a fruitcake like Dale Evans

Ha ha, yes he is a right failure....

Gary Hoffman's £1.85m 'golden hello' at NBNK | This is Money

You really are a simpleton.

Gary has been the Chief Executive Officer of the Group since November 2012 and joined the Board in September 2015. He has extensive experience in the banking and insurance industries. Prior to joining the Group, Gary was Chief Executive Officer of NBNK Investments, an investment vehicle formed in August 2010 to establish personal and business retail banking in the UK. Prior to that, he led the UK government’s turnaround of Northern Rock as its Chief Executive. From 2006 to 2008, he was Vice-Chairman of Barclays PLC, having previously been Chairman of UK Banking and Barclaycard at Barclays PLC following five years as Chief Executive of Barclaycard. He is the Non-Executive Chairman of VISA Europe, a Non-Executive Director of VISA Inc. and Chairman of the UK sports charity, the Football Foundation.

Grendel · Dec 30, 2017

dongonzalos said:
Ha ha, yes he is a right failure....

Gary Hoffman's £1.85m 'golden hello' at NBNK | This is Money

You really are a simpleton.

Gary has been the Chief Executive Officer of the Group since November 2012 and joined the Board in September 2015. He has extensive experience in the banking and insurance industries. Prior to joining the Group, Gary was Chief Executive Officer of NBNK Investments, an investment vehicle formed in August 2010 to establish personal and business retail banking in the UK. Prior to that, he led the UK government’s turnaround of Northern Rock as its Chief Executive. From 2006 to 2008, he was Vice-Chairman of Barclays PLC, having previously been Chairman of UK Banking and Barclaycard at Barclays PLC following five years as Chief Executive of Barclaycard. He is the Non-Executive Chairman of VISA Europe, a Non-Executive Director of VISA Inc. and Chairman of the UK sports charity, the Football Foundation.

Oh I think he knows what he’s doing. He has a vendetta against sisu and sepella in particular - the evidence you produce shows this to be true - I don’t think he’d be giving Dale a loan with one of his companies without more evidence than his endorsement of his money fo you?

I know you are a bit embarrassed as he played you with that other buffoon Haskell but please don’t tell me you think this bloke has the money as well?

skybluetony176 · Dec 30, 2017

Grendel said:
He has a vendetta against sisu and sepella in particular

He’s a CCFC fan. Of course he does. There’s something wrong with you if you don’t share in that sentiment.

letsallsingtogether · Dec 30, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
He’s a CCFC fan. Of course he does. There’s something wrong with you if you don’t share in that sentiment.

Still has his head up fishers arse

Grendel · Dec 30, 2017

letsallsingtogether said:
Still has his head up fishers arse

You and fisher are two peas in a pod regarding morality

letsallsingtogether · Dec 30, 2017

8

Grendel said:
You and fisher are two peas in a pod regarding morality

morality what you on about?
You don't obviously know the meaning of the word.
Come back to me when you have some principles.
Sticking up for Sisu doesn't count.

Grendel · Dec 30, 2017

letsallsingtogether said:
8

morality what you on about?
You don't obviously know the meaning of the word.
Come back to me when you have some principles.
Sticking up for Sisu doesn't count.

I’ve never stuck up for sisu or any other hedge fund that owns a sports club that doesn’t value the local community.

Unlike your beloved trust.

letsallsingtogether · Dec 30, 2017

Grendel said:
I’ve never stuck up for sisu or any other hedge fund that owns a sports club that doesn’t value the local community.

Unlike your beloved trust.

More shit I see.
You have to do better then that.
And what does the trust have to do with this.
Stop diverting from the question.

letsallsingtogether · Dec 30, 2017

Any way just about to have a meal with my wife in Carlisle.
So goodnight all.

dongonzalos · Dec 30, 2017

Grendel said:
Oh I think he knows what he’s doing. He has a vendetta against sisu and sepella in particular - the evidence you produce shows this to be true - I don’t think he’d be giving Dale a loan with one of his companies without more evidence than his endorsement of his money fo you?

I know you are a bit embarrassed as he played you with that other buffoon Haskell but please don’t tell me you think this bloke has the money as well?

You do understand that Haskell did actually bid for SISU’s debt as in he did have the money.
However SISU were prepared to pay more for their own debt that they had loaded onto the club, then write it off.
He was not stupid enough to overpay for that debt SISU were desperate and did what they needed to do, so they still owned the club when they won those smoking gun legal actions or moved in on a devalued ACL.....ah slight issue there.
Also regarding the vendetta comment he is an incredibly well respected businessman who has proved himself time and time again.
Don’t judge him by your childish behaviour not everyone hold grudges and vendettas you know.
You sound like you are preparing to write the blueprint for JR3 or some other failed action such as an ethics hearing or some rubbish like that suggesting Joy Sepalla has been the target of a horrible vendetta.
Pathetic.

dongonzalos · Dec 30, 2017

The sport of football was so outraged after MK Dons, franchising got banned it only wasn’t banned before this as nobody thought it could really happen to a team like that.
Rugby has allowed it to happen in the past and continue to allow it to happen in the present. Why are the fans of Rugby not getting it banned like what happened in football. Why are the RFU not banning it.
The answer is unfortunately because it not as outrageous in that sport and for some bizzare reason more morally accepted. We football fans are more outraged than them. However we become even more outraged when it negatively affects our own club. Which is the real reason most give a shit whether they admit to themselves or not. Sorry I know I will get heaps of shit for saying this but it’s the truth. If London Irish had moved to Northampton instead of the Wasps move we may pass the odd comment saying Rugby is shit why do they allow that. Other than that 99.9% of us wouldn’t give a rats ass about it.
Wasps however flew into our stadium whilst we were away and nicked all of SISU’s hard work and that is what really pisses us off. Yet many hide the anger stating that it is purely a moral issue of franchising as s whole. Yet the next time (hopefully next year) MK Dons come to town. Most will be buying a ticket and giving money to a franchise team. Or some will watch the blaze if they start doing well again.
It’s bollox. They shafted Cov by moving in and that’s the real reason we hate them don’t hide behind the franchising bollox!

Grendel · Dec 30, 2017

dongonzalos said:
You do understand that Haskell did actually bid for SISU’s debt as in he did have the money.
However SISU were prepared to pay more for their own debt that they had loaded onto the club, then write it off.
He was not stupid enough to overpay for that debt SISU were desperate and did what they needed to do, so they still owned the club when they won those smoking gun legal actions or moved in on a devalued ACL.....ah slight issue there.
Also regarding the vendetta comment he is an incredibly well respected businessman who has proved himself time and time again.
Don’t judge him by your childish behaviour not everyone hold grudges and vendettas you know.
You sound like you are preparing to write the blueprint for JR3 or some other failed action such as an ethics hearing or some rubbish like that suggesting Joy Sepalla has been the target of a horrible vendetta.
Pathetic.

So Dale Evans has the money then?

Haskell never had the money - he biddef for 3 football clubs safe in the knowledge he’d lose every bid.

Hutchwingsteinmiddle · Dec 30, 2017

dongonzalos said:
You do understand that Haskell did actually bid for SISU’s debt as in he did have the money.
However SISU were prepared to pay more for their own debt that they had loaded onto the club, then write it off.
He was not stupid enough to overpay for that debt SISU were desperate and did what they needed to do, so they still owned the club when they won those smoking gun legal actions or moved in on a devalued ACL.....ah slight issue there.
Also regarding the vendetta comment he is an incredibly well respected businessman who has proved himself time and time again.
Don’t judge him by your childish behaviour not everyone hold grudges and vendettas you know.
You sound like you are preparing to write the blueprint for JR3 or some other failed action such as an ethics hearing or some rubbish like that suggesting Joy Sepalla has been the target of a horrible vendetta.
Pathetic.

Reference the comments on Gary Hoffman I absolutely agree. I have known him from a young age. Bablake School educated and was a star pupil there who went on to study at Cambridge (from memory). Had a long career at Barclays where I recall he signed the Barclays deal with the Premier League ironically at the same time City got relegated from the Premier League itself. He then had the unenviable task of fixing the dire financial problems at Northern Rock as a result of the Financial Crisis in 2008, a task surely harder than fixing the current woes at Coventry City. He is a Coventry kid through and through and his parents were lifelong Season Ticket holders (and still were when I last spoke to him). A more ideal owner for our beloved Club we could not wish to find. I can also see very positive chemistry between him and Derek Richardson. Both are unassuming, smart and from a Financial Services background. On the 'vendetta' point, he is far too professional for that. But imagine a man with Sky Blue blood running through his veins sitting across a table from a lady who promotes herself as a seasoned asset stripper taking whatever value is left in terms of assets (training ground) and talent (our academy players) out of the Club - it won't make for an easy working relationship to say the very least. And on Dale Evans to be accurate Gary did not ''endorse'' him. He simply confirmed he had funds. A big difference but a significant statement in that it offers Evans an element of credibility. And if Evans (with all the baggage he seems to bring and the collateral damage he creates to make a hard negotiation process even more difficult with his absurd messages on social media) is prepared to stump up the cash to do a deal with SISU and wrestle the Club into a safe pair of hands I would take it no questions asked and then deal with what comes after at a later date!

duffer · Dec 30, 2017

dongonzalos said:
The sport of football was so outraged after MK Dons, franchising got banned it only wasn’t banned before this as nobody thought it could really happen to a team like that.
Rugby has allowed it to happen in the past and continue to allow it to happen in the present. Why are the fans of Rugby not getting it banned like what happened in football. Why are the RFU not banning it.
The answer is unfortunately because it not as outrageous in that sport and for some bizzare reason more morally accepted. We football fans are more outraged than them. However we become even more outraged when it negatively affects our own club. Which is the real reason most give a shit whether they admit to themselves or not. Sorry I know I will get heaps of shit fir saying this but it’s the truth. If London Irish moved to Northampton instead of the Wasps move we may pass the odd comment saying Rugby is shit why do they allow that. Other than that 99.9% of us wouldn’t give a rats ass about it.
Wasps however flew into our stadium whilst we were away and nicked all of SISU’s hard work and that is what really pusses us off. Yet many hide the anger about that under a moral issue of franchising as s whole. Yet the next time (hopefully next year) MK Dons come to town. Most will be buying a ticket and giving money to a franchise team. Or some will watch the blaze if they start doing well again.
It’s bollox. They shafted Cov by moving in abd that’s the real reason we hate them don’t hide behind the franchising bollox!

At least you accept it's a franchise, which is a start...

If they'd gone to, say, Hull instead of here I'd still dislike them for it because I hate the idea of franchising teams away from their fan base. Obviously them being here and screwing CCFC over with the help of the council just adds a bit to it.

Some care about it, some don't. I get that. But I've never been to MK Dons, and I'll never go to Wasps for a lot the same reasons - basically because they don't belong where they're playing.

With all respect. to me that is a moral issue; whether you agree or not is your choice, but you can't tell me what my opinion is!

italiahorse · Dec 30, 2017

duffer said:
At least you accept it's a franchise, which is a start...

If they'd gone to, say, Hull instead of here I'd still dislike them for it because I hate the idea of franchising teams away from their fan base. Obviously them being here and screwing CCFC over with the help of the council just adds a bit to it.

Some care about it, some don't. I get that. But I've never been to MK Dons, and I'll never go to Wasps for a lot the same reasons - basically because they don't belong where they're playing.

With all respect. to me that is a moral issue; whether you agree or not is your choice, but you can't tell me what my opinion is!

Love it how everybody now picks up on the morals of the MK Dons but never actually mentioned it until Wasps arrived.

clint van damme · Dec 30, 2017

italiahorse said:
Love it how everybody now picks up on the morals of the MK Dons but never actually mentioned it until Wasps arrived.

no one ever mentioned MK Dons, what absolute bollocks!!
Supporters up and down the country slated them.

fernandopartridge · Dec 30, 2017

Hutchwingsteinmiddle said:
Lest we all forget, Jimmy Hill was a a great fan of the franchise system. He pumped £500K of City money into Detroit Express (they were subsequently re-located to Washington), and was going to use it as a possible feeder Club to Coventry. They came over here to play in 1977 or 1978 I remember going to the match. Hill also tried to rename Coventry ''Coventry Talbot'' as part of a sponsorship arrangement with Peugeot-Talbot at the time. He was on record as well (to the poster who referenced the NEC as a ''perfect'' venue) as saying City should build a mega stadium at the NEC and merge with a prominent Birmingham Club. The USA venture was ill-fated and perhaps the only project that blotted his visionary CV. But given his passion for the franchise system blended with his visionary view of football he would undoubtably have tried to embrace the arrival of Wasps to benefit the future of the football Club. I am sure the tenacious Gary Hoffman once he does get his paws of the Club will do likewise. He is a super-smart businessman.

What a load of bollocks

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Moff · Dec 30, 2017

italiahorse said:
Massive debts and an owner that throws money in and guarantees the growing £45M debt.
A ground that has no major additional incomes and no plan to pay off the debt.

Sorry your comments about Saracens are absolute garbage. Done to try to disprove that a club can leave London and move back. No major incomes? are you suggesting Allianz sponsor it for free?
Propped up by an owner and in debt, ironic that it sounds just like Wasps to be honest
Notice it's just in your opinion as normal.
Still I wouldn't expect any less from someone who constantly pedals Wasps rhetoric.

duffer · Dec 31, 2017

italiahorse said:
Love it how everybody now picks up on the morals of the MK Dons but never actually mentioned it until Wasps arrived.

Hmm, I love it when people tie themselves in knots trying to justify something that they know would outrage them if it happened to a club that they cared about.

In case you're confused, I wouldn't go to MK Dons regardless of (and prior to) Wasps being here, and I wouldn't go to Wasps or take a penny out of them for that matter.

I'd guess the only time you'll find some principles is when it hits you in the pocket or if CCFC should move out of Cov. At that point you'll be crying on here no doubt.

joemercersaces · Dec 31, 2017

As Rob Andrew confirms in his recent book there is a very strong desire for franchising within rugby’s higher echelons. In fact he was a co-author if the so-called ‘Andrew Plan’ whereby there would be 3 Premiership club franchises in the South-West, 2 in the Midlands and so on. So Coventry RFC would have no route back to the top.

italiahorse · Dec 31, 2017

Moff said:
Sorry your comments about Saracens are absolute garbage. Done to try to disprove that a club can leave London and move back. No major incomes? are you suggesting Allianz sponsor it for free?
Propped up by an owner and in debt, ironic that it sounds just like Wasps to be honest
Notice it's just in your opinion as normal.
Still I wouldn't expect any less from someone who constantly pedals Wasps rhetoric.

People just need to get over it.
Wasps are not going back to London.
Wasps slagging threads like this may help peoples anger but at the end of the day we will need to work with them.
We can't afford to run it ourselves, unless Sisu can get the stadium for nothing.
We need to piggyback on Wasps until somehow we can get to a position where they see us as an asset for mutual benefits and long term financial safety for both..

joemercersaces · Dec 31, 2017

italiahorse said:
People just need to get over it.
Wasps are not going back to London.
Wasps slagging threads like this may help peoples anger but at the end of the day we will need to work with them.
We can't afford to run it ourselves, unless Sisu can get the stadium for nothing.
We need to piggyback on Wasps until somehow we can get to a position where they see us as an asset for mutual benefits and long term financial safety for both..

I suppose if you’d been French in 1940 you’d have said that the Germans weren’t going anywhere so we might as well get on with them. A non-deluded CCFC fan would be hoping that Wasps do fuck off and give us a chance of getting our ground back. A realistic CCFC fan understands that will happen if their financial gamble fails as it may well do. So your beloved Wasps may go elsewhere and whilst that may happen anyway we can help it along by (a) not giving them money and (b) raising awareness of the issue so that others think twice about doing so.

italiahorse · Dec 31, 2017

joemercersaces said:
I suppose if you’d been French in 1940 you’d have said that the Germans weren’t going anywhere so we might as well get on with them. A non-deluded CCFC fan would be hoping that Wasps do fuck off and give us a chance of getting our ground back. A realistic CCFC fan understands that will happen if their financial gamble fails as it may well do. So your beloved Wasps may go elsewhere and whilst that may happen anyway we can help it along by (a) not giving them money and (b) raising awareness of the issue so that others think twice about doing so.

But do you really think we can just take over the running of the stadium ?
Fisher has alluded he would not of paid what Wasps paid, so in reality what does that mean?
I would suggest they would just continue where they left off which may see then engineering a 'temporary' move to get the stadium.
Not for me.

joemercersaces · Dec 31, 2017

italiahorse said:
But do you really think we can just take over the running of the stadium ?
Fisher has alluded he would not of paid what Wasps paid, so in reality what does that mean?
I would suggest they would just continue where they left off which may see then engineering a 'temporary' move to get the stadium.
Not for me.

Anything is better than the status quo whereby at the end of the season we have no home.

Imagine that we did the same to say Huddersfield. Mount a hostile takeover of their ground and move the club there to do so. Would you defend that? That’s in effect what that bunch of parasitical unprincipled wankers did. SISU would no doubt do the same if they could get away with it, but that doesn’t make it right.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2017

italiahorse said:
But do you really think we can just take over the running of the stadium ?
Fisher has alluded he would not of paid what Wasps paid, so in reality what does that mean?
I would suggest they would just continue where they left off which may see then engineering a 'temporary' move to get the stadium.
Not for me.

You can disagree with the antics of sisu and oppose wasps relocation you know.

italiahorse · Dec 31, 2017

clint van damme said:
You can disagree with the antics of sisu and oppose wasps relocation you know.

The relocation has happened.
Oppose Sisu? NOPM perhaps then ?

In your opinion what happens with the stadium when Wasps leave ?

Moff · Dec 31, 2017

italiahorse said:
People just need to get over it.
Wasps are not going back to London.
Wasps slagging threads like this may help peoples anger but at the end of the day we will need to work with them.
We can't afford to run it ourselves, unless Sisu can get the stadium for nothing.
We need to piggyback on Wasps until somehow we can get to a position where they see us as an asset for mutual benefits and long term financial safety for both..

Sorry but if that's your utopia, its certainly not mine.
If we became dependant on Wasps, swapping one bastard of a hedge fund for another I would be done. I want SISU gone, Wasps gone.
It depresses me that your slavish devotion to wasps blinds you to the fact that they are just another faceless hedge fund owner just like SISU, and the Rugby is a side show for the real estate, but if you want the club eternally owned by such shysters I think you will be filling your boots on your own.
We will never be of mutual benefit to Wasps, we will always be at their mercy.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2017

italiahorse said:
The relocation has happened.
Oppose Sisu? NOPM perhaps then ?

In your opinion what happens with the stadium when Wasps leave ?

you're sidestepping the question, that has nothing to do with not agreeing with them being here.

italiahorse · Dec 31, 2017

clint van damme said:
you're sidestepping the question, that has nothing to do with not agreeing with them being here.

It does because IMHO getting rid of Wasps means the stadium complex would fold and CCFC would have to move.
People have no idea what Sisu will do yet just want rid of Wasps.
CCFC will always rent while they are here regardless of the owners, be it Sisu, Wasps or anyone else.
They will never have the financial clout to own this or any other stadium for many years to come.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2017

italiahorse said:
It does because IMHO getting rid of Wasps means the stadium complex would fold and CCFC would have to move.
People have no idea what Sisu will do yet just want rid of Wasps.
CCFC will always rent while they are here regardless of the owners, be it Sisu, Wasps or anyone else.
They will never have the financial clout to own this or any other stadium for many years to come.

Side stepped again. You just can't bring yourself to say wasps shouldn't be here. they should not have relocated to Coventry!

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