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Southport Stabbing (7 Viewers)

  • Thread starter Grendel
  • Start date Jul 29, 2024
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rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,046
Sky Blue Pete said:
Ok simple then
Why did the government release no information about the person but allowed the press a picture when he was an 11 year old boy and told the press to publish that he used to sing in the choir ?
Click to expand...
OK simple then.

Because they were worried, with good reason, about reprisals. Unfortunately they went so far in the opposite direction that they made themselves look silly and it had the reverse effect. There was that photo, he wasn't muslim, he sang in a choir, he was Welsh, we didnt know about him, he didnt arrive illegally and so it went on.
 
Reactions: eastwoodsdustman and Nick

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,047
shmmeee said:
Again a Prevent referral does not out someone on the governments radar. They are assessed and then go to Channel panel and even then might just have a local intervention.

Only 9% of referrals are adopted at Channrl panel. Here’s the stats:

Individuals referred to and supported through the Prevent Programme, April 2022 to March 2023

www.gov.uk
Click to expand...
So it was starmer and coopers fault ah gotya moment for the government
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,048
Sky Blue Pete said:
It’s probably a good thing that most are known to the authorities
It means our police and security services do an amazing job
Suppose we could pretend that the tories and tax reducing reform will increase the police and security numbers and spending and it will be better
I’m very happy we can focus on what went wrong with the prevent process and the risk management to end up with this horrific attack
That’s a sensible question
It’s not where reform musk and the reform voters are at
Click to expand...

Why are you going on about bringing down Starmer and now Musk and reform voters when nobody is actually saying anything about them in this conversation?

I don't think anybody is saying somebody said "Oh Axel is going out today to kill people, let's sit back and see what kicks off". It's more that when it happened there were plenty who knew him, went to school with him and said what he was really like but the image of him chosen was that he was a young BBC star, Welsh, Choirboy etc.

Can you not see why it will have pissed people off?
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,049
rob9872 said:
OK simple then.

Because they were worried, with good reason, about reprisals. Unfortunately they went so far in the opposite direction that they made themselves look silly and it had the reverse effect. There was that photo, he wasn't muslim, he sang in a choir, he was Welsh, we didnt know about him, he didnt arrive illegally and so it went on.
Click to expand...
So which of that is false and this is the nub and this is already further than any Twitter discussion I’ve had so thank you and it’s really useful

photo was accurate it was just not recent - who released it? Government????
I didn’t see anything saying he wasn’t a Muslim it just wasn’t Muslim attacks kids but you think it would have helped if this info was known to have said we believe he’s a Muslim convert from a Christian home? I think I can agree with that. That would have been useful if it was known
He did sing in a choir
He was welsh
He didn’t arrive illegally he was born in wales
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,050
rob9872 said:
OK simple then.

Because they were worried, with good reason, about reprisals. Unfortunately they went so far in the opposite direction that they made themselves look silly and it had the reverse effect. There was that photo, he wasn't muslim, he sang in a choir, he was Welsh, we didnt know about him, he didnt arrive illegally and so it went on.
Click to expand...

When in reality, they knew all about him and would have known everything about him within minutes of it happening (if not sooner).

Obviously they aren't going to release everything while things are being investigated but they knew full well how different the image of him that was being pushed was completely different to the person who had committed the crime.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,051
Nick said:
Why are you going on about bringing down Starmer and now Musk and reform voters when nobody is actually saying anything about them in this conversation?

I don't think anybody is saying somebody said "Oh Axel is going out today to kill people, let's sit back and see what kicks off". It's more that when it happened there were plenty who knew him, went to school with him and said what he was really like but the image of him chosen was that he was a young BBC star, Welsh, Choirboy etc.

Can you not see why it will have pissed people off?
Click to expand...
Yes
But you and Rob are saying this was what the government chose?
also actually Rob has suggested why and actually if that was the case it’s not bad but I’d have stuck with the truth as we know it
He also didn’t add his family were helped to stay by starmer and his dad was a war lord and wanted for genocide in Rwanda
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,052
Nick said:
When in reality, they knew all about him and would have known everything about him within minutes of it happening (if not sooner).

Obviously they aren't going to release everything while things are being investigated but they knew full well how different the image of him that was being pushed was completely different to the person who had committed the crime.
Click to expand...
Can you share government statements that were misleading?
does anyone say he’s not a muslim
I remember the debates on here.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,053
Sky Blue Pete said:
So which of that is false and this is the nub and this is already further than any Twitter discussion I’ve had so thank you and it’s really useful

photo was accurate it was just not recent - who released it? Government????
I didn’t see anything saying he wasn’t a Muslim it just wasn’t Muslim attacks kids but you think it would have helped if this info was known to have said we believe he’s a Muslim convert from a Christian home? I think I can agree with that. That would have been useful if it was known
He did sing in a choir
He was welsh
He didn’t arrive illegally he was born in wales
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you can try any harder to miss his point.

He had Ricin, he was obsessed with mass killings, he was taking knives into school, he attacked people with a hockey stick, and people who dealt with him wanted police to be present. He was being named on social media and things like this were being said but it was labelled "misinformation" :



I'm sure most killers did some nice things when they were little kids but I'm not sure it's that relevant if we found out that Ian Huntley once starred in his nativity or if Peter Sutcliffe was close to his nan.

It's also being said that he did want to go to a high school a week earlier but his dad talked him out of it, what did his dad know?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,054
Sky Blue Pete said:
Can you share government statements that were misleading?
does anyone say he’s not a muslim
I remember the debates on here.
Click to expand...

So you really can't see the picture that was painted of him compared to the reality?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,055
Sky Blue Pete said:
So it was starmer and coopers fault ah gotya moment for the government
Click to expand...

2015 Counter Terrorism and Security Act.

Sorry I mean it was the lizard people controlling the media.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,056
Nick said:
I'm not sure if you can try any harder to miss his point.

He had Ricin, he was obsessed with mass killings, he was taking knives into school, he attacked people with a hockey stick, and people who dealt with him wanted police to be present.

I'm sure most killers did some nice things when they were little kids but I'm not sure it's that relevant if we found out that Ian Huntley once starred in his nativity or if Peter Sutcliffe was close to his nan.

It's also being said that he did want to go to a high school a week earlier but his dad talked him out of it, what did his dad know?
Click to expand...
Sorry what is the point I am missing
Is it again that he should have been stopped before committing the crime?
or that the government should have shared the information as soon as they had it to inflame sensitivities and chances of a riot or are you agreeing it was sensible to try and avoid it or something else
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,057
Sky Blue Pete said:
So which of that is false and this is the nub and this is already further than any Twitter discussion I’ve had so thank you and it’s really useful

photo was accurate it was just not recent - who released it? Government????
I didn’t see anything saying he wasn’t a Muslim it just wasn’t Muslim attacks kids but you think it would have helped if this info was known to have said we believe he’s a Muslim convert from a Christian home? I think I can agree with that. That would have been useful if it was known
He did sing in a choir
He was welsh
He didn’t arrive illegally he was born in wales
Click to expand...
It was more that that they were so desperate to spread that narrative. I'm sure you will have read about his parents and the Starmer link, he wasn't a Christian. I also know that a lot of people I know who are UK to born to eg Indian heritage, refer to themselves as British Indian rather than British or Indian, he was listed as only Welsh. It's not so much wrong as trying to sell a story and they were clearly trying too hard, bearing in mind the atrocities that he'd just carried out.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,058
rob9872 said:
It was more that that they were so desperate to spread that narrative. I'm sure you will have read about his parents and the Starmer link, he wasn't a Christian. I also know that a lot of people I know who are UK to born to eg Indian heritage, refer to themselves as British Indian rather than British or Indian, he was listed as only Welsh. It's not so much wrong as trying to sell a story and they were clearly trying too hard, bearing in mind the atrocities that he'd just carried out.
Click to expand...

Who is “they” in your first sentence?
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,059
Nick said:
So you really can't see the picture that was painted of him compared to the reality?
Click to expand...
Where do you start
Hideous murder takes place
Police arrest the killer
Charge him with murder and investigate
Social media goes mental with misinformation some of which happens to be accurate not because it was known to be but because there’s an m o
I think that’s ok to say
Now Rob’s suggestion then makes perfect sense and it’s in the delivery the mistakes happened but they were defending things at that point
You would look to minimise tensions wouldn’t you?
Are you suggesting that the sun express and mail were in the governments pocket!
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,060
Sky Blue Pete said:
Sorry what is the point I am missing
Is it again that he should have been stopped before committing the crime?
or that the government should have shared the information as soon as they had it to inflame sensitivities and chances of a riot or are you agreeing it was sensible to try and avoid it or something else
Click to expand...

The point is they didn't try and avoid it, it was all in on the choirboy rhetoric. Now I will mention Starmer, what he did was inflame the situation even more by coming out called everybody right wing if they disagreed or had concerns. He pouted fuel all over it and if anything, drove people towards the people making Telegram groups. Starmer would have known everything at that time as well.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,061
rob9872 said:
It was more that that they were so desperate to spread that narrative. I'm sure you will have read about his parents and the Starmer link, he wasn't a Christian. I also know that a lot of people I know who are UK to born to eg Indian heritage, refer to themselves as British Indian rather than British or Indian, he was listed as only Welsh. It's not so much wrong as trying to sell a story and they were clearly trying too hard, bearing in mind the atrocities that he'd just carried out.
Click to expand...
Who was trying to sell a story? The police and security and the government?

I think I agree with you that the subsequent government public announcements were about seeking to reduce tension but because truth was lacking and because some social media parties were looking to take advantage this backfired significantly
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,062
Sky Blue Pete said:
Where do you start
Hideous murder takes place
Police arrest the killer
Charge him with murder and investigate
Social media goes mental with misinformation some of which happens to be accurate not because it was known to be but because there’s an m o
I think that’s ok to say
Now Rob’s suggestion then makes perfect sense and it’s in the delivery the mistakes happened but they were defending things at that point
You would look to minimise tensions wouldn’t you?
Are you suggesting that the sun express and mail were in the governments pocket!
Click to expand...

How did it work out with minimising tensions?

It turns out that a fair bit of the "misinformation" that was being said was actually true, of course there was a lot of nonsense also being said but the core points were actually true.

I have posted a screenshot of what was played down at the time, which turns out is actually true.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,063
Nick said:
The point is they didn't try and avoid it, it was all in on the choirboy rhetoric. Now I will mention Starmer, what he did was inflame the situation even more by coming out called everybody right wing if they disagreed or had concerns. He pouted fuel all over it and if anything, drove people towards the people making Telegram groups. Starmer would have known everything at that time as well.
Click to expand...
The press gave the choir boy line
What would you want a responsible government to come out and say??
Both of us would probably need to listen to the announcement as I’m pretty sure he didn’t say anyone who disagrees or has concerns is far right I think it was those who were seeking to act violently or encourage violence were far right but I’m not certain
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,064
Nick said:
How did it work out with minimising tensions?

It turns out that a fair bit of the "misinformation" that was being said was actually true, of course there was a lot of nonsense also being said but the core points were actually true.

I have posted a screenshot of what was played down at the time, which turns out is actually true.
Click to expand...
On here today or before?
I think it’s important to be specific about stuff and recognise the nuance
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,065
Sky Blue Pete said:
On here today or before?
I think it’s important to be specific about stuff and recognise the nuance
Click to expand...

Specific about what? I don't think you can get as specific as somebody saying "He was in my class, he was expelled for bringing in a knife to school".

Yeah, it could have been fake. It turns out that it's much closer to the reality of things than him being a Welsh Choirboy called Gethin.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,066
Good thread on the misconceptions on Prevent (by a Tory if that helps you digest it)

Sunder Katwala (sundersays) (@sundersays.bsky.social)

Prevent references in 2019 (aged 13) + 2021 (aged 15). The news reports suggest was deemed to have a fascination with violence but not an extreme ideology. Prevent is a voluntary deradicalisation programme (on extreme ideologies that could lead to terrorism)...
bsky.app
 
Reactions: torchomatic and Sky Blue Pete

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,067
Sky Blue Pete said:
The press gave the choir boy line
What would you want a responsible government to come out and say??
Both of us would probably need to listen to the announcement as I’m pretty sure he didn’t say anyone who disagrees or has concerns is far right I think it was those who were seeking to act violently or encourage violence were far right but I’m not certain
Click to expand...

It’s standard tabloid fare “Oh look at this angel turned devil - what could possibly have happened”. They do it with everyone.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,068
Sky Blue Pete said:
Where do you start
Hideous murder takes place
Police arrest the killer
Charge him with murder and investigate
Social media goes mental with misinformation some of which happens to be accurate not because it was known to be but because there’s an m o
I think that’s ok to say
Now Rob’s suggestion then makes perfect sense and it’s in the delivery the mistakes happened but they were defending things at that point
You would look to minimise tensions wouldn’t you?
Are you suggesting that the sun express and mail were in the governments pocket!
Click to expand...

You are sounding as deranged as Schmeee
 
Reactions: Captain Dart and Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Nick

Administrator
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,069
shmmeee said:
They do it with everyone.
Click to expand...

Do they?

Damn I missed seeing Harold Shipman doing keepups with his U7's team.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,070
Nick said:
Specific about what? I don't think you can get as specific as somebody saying "He was in my class, he was expelled for bringing in a knife to school".

Yeah, it could have been fake. It turns out that it's much closer to the reality of things than him being a Welsh Choirboy called Gethin.
Click to expand...
Sorry the document you shared on here
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,071
Grendel said:
You are sounding as deranged as Schmeee
Click to expand...
Thank you
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,072
Sky Blue Pete said:
Sorry the document you shared on here
Click to expand...

It was a post that was around at the time it happened that was widely labelled as misinformation.

There were a fair few at the time who said they knew him / of him and what he was like.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,073
Nick said:
Do they?

Damn I missed seeing Harold Shipman doing keepups with his U7's team.
Click to expand...

Happy to help

Inside the mind of Britain's most prolific serial killer - 20 years on

Two decades have passed since Shipman killed himself, but disturbing questions remain about the case and about how the medical profession deals with misconduct or even criminality by its members.
www.dailymail.co.uk
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,074
Sky Blue Pete said:
Thank you
Click to expand...

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

He was clearly a dangerous and disturbed individual. Misinformation occurs when the actual facts are suppressed.
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,075
shmmeee said:
Investigate them, give them a course on not being a terrorist. It doesn’t mean you get your own personal spook 24/7
Click to expand...
A course will they get tea and biscuits same as the speed awareness one and key ring to say I'm no longer a terrorist
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,076
Grendel said:
You are sounding as deranged as Schmeee
Click to expand...

Grendel said:
I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

He was clearly a dangerous and disturbed individual. Misinformation occurs when the actual facts are suppressed.
Click to expand...
What misinformation grendel?
Or is it omission?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,077
Gynnsthetonic said:
A course will they get tea and biscuits same as the speed awareness one and key ring to say I'm no longer a terrorist
Click to expand...

It’s literally a voluntary course. Thats what Prevent is. Im so bored of repeating myself.
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,078
shmmeee said:
It’s literally a voluntary course. Thats what Prevent is. Im so bored of repeating myself.
Click to expand...
How many potential murderers and terrorists will volunteer I wonder?
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,079
GIMOC said:
so one of the dads who kid was there had posted this.
View attachment 37164

assume he’s a c**t aswell then?
Click to expand...
This one Nick?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 20, 2025
  • #3,080
Gynnsthetonic said:
How many potential murderers and terrorists will volunteer I wonder?
Click to expand...

Well quite.

The problem here is lone wolf attackers radicalising themselves on YouTube on their toilet are very hard to spot. And 99% of people who sound like nutters aren’t nutters they’ve just spent too long on social media *cough* half this forum *cough*.

Pursue, the part of the CONTEST anti terrorist strategy after Prevent is about actually stopping attacks and relies on informants and old fashioned undercover work, which obviously don’t apply to lone wolf attacks.

But that’s not as fun as pretending you’re waging a one man war against the forces of evil so whatever I guess.
 
Reactions: lordy_87
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