Southgate (2 Viewers)

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 17, 2024

Nick said:
Carsley the ROI international with zero club management experience (apart from a few caretaker roles).

Just be another FA type yes man.

Not really, he’s coached most of the current and future England teams in his various youth setups.

Won the U21 Euros against Spain playing the kind of free flowing football fans would like to see us playing.

De la Fuente was a EFF ‘yes man’ and he looked a far more accomplished coach than Luis Enrique in the role.

Carsley could be a great shout and let’s be honest, he’s not Irish - he’s a midlands lad. Him playing for England is a typical case of not being able to get into the ‘A’ team.

Evo1883 · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Not really, he’s coached most of the current and future England teams in his various youth setups.

Won the U21 Euros against Spain playing the kind of free flowing football fans would like to see us playing.

De la Fuente was a EFF ‘yes man’ and he looked a far more accomplished coach than Luis Enrique in the role.

Carsley could be a great shout and let’s be honest, he’s not Irish - he’s a midlands lad. Him playing for England is a typical case of not being able to get into the ‘A’ team.

He's not Irish? Is that you Enzo? kidding

I know he lives I believe on the main road to knowl by Balsall common

Evo1883 · Jul 17, 2024

Having watched a few videos , I wouldn't be opposed to Lee carsley getting the job tbh , some exceptional football played by England at the Euros in all fairness

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 17, 2024

Evo1883 said:
Having watched a few videos , I wouldn't be opposed to Lee carsley getting the job tbh , some exceptional football played by England at the Euros in all fairness

I know Howe is your favourite, to me it’s just not the move for him to make right now. Newcastle have an exciting project and he’s under contract.

If we’re going English, it’s Potter or Carsley for me. Both managers hit well with the so-called ‘English DNA’ as both have proven to be tactically flexible.

If you’ve watched the same videos I have, then you’ll be aware of the various problems Carsley had to deal with in the lead up to that tournament - losing key personnel upfront and in midfield. He was able to think out of the box too which is what I think is needed with this team. There’s so many pieces to put together I can see why Southgate perhaps struggled finishing his best team and system post-Qatar 2022.

My gut feeling was that I felt Southgate would be a success with England and he’s turned out to be our best manager since Sir Alf Ramsey and clearly the best option at the time. The foundation has been set nicely for someone else to build on what he has done (for all his faults) and Carsley could be well placed. It worked for Spain, so why not us?

The FA seem to have a plan to lure Pep, which would involve hiring an interim manager for one year. For me, we should trust in the talented coaches we have at our disposal.

SeaSeeEffCee · Jul 17, 2024

I think we should appoint Carsley as an interim with the view to appointing him permanently if he does a good enough job in this years international breaks. No WC qualifiers until March so next three international breaks don’t really matter.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I know Howe is your favourite, to me it’s just not the move for him to make right now. Newcastle have an exciting project and he’s under contract.

If we’re going English, it’s Potter or Carsley for me. Both managers hit well with the so-called ‘English DNA’ as both have proven to be tactically flexible.

If you’ve watched the same videos I have, then you’ll be aware of the various problems Carsley had to deal with in the lead up to that tournament - losing key personnel upfront and in midfield. He was able to think out of the box too which is what I think is needed with this team. There’s so many pieces to put together I can see why Southgate perhaps struggled finishing his best team and system post-Qatar 2022.

My gut feeling was that I felt Southgate would be a success with England and he’s turned out to be our best manager since Sir Alf Ramsey and clearly the best option at the time. The foundation has been set nicely for someone else to build on what he has done (for all his faults) and Carsley could be well placed. It worked for Spain, so why not us?

The FA seem to have a plan to lure Pep, which would involve hiring an interim manager for one year. For me, we should trust in the talented coaches we have at our disposal.

I think Pep would be expensive and a mistake for sure.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 17, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I think Pep would be expensive and a mistake for sure.

Agreed. His weaknesses has been the UCL where he’s arguably underachieved as a manager given the teams he’s managed.

As with Klopp, these managers require their teams to be well drilled to a man. How would either manager react if, like this squad, you need to replace 12 players from the squad you had 2 years prior?

Pep seemingly cannot be beaten over a domestic campaign where those one off results (usually against Palace or Spurs) will be levelled out over the season. It’s those cup game moments where Pep will overthink his approach and make errors.

That’s been a massive blind spot of the footballing commentariat in this country. Ultimately, the next manager has to win a major trophy to be considered better than Southgate.

The best non-English candidate for me would be Tuchel who has a track record in setting up teams for major tournaments and overachieving. The way he is with the press, however, is a big negative in the context of the England job.

wingy · Jul 17, 2024

Evo1883 said:
He's not Irish? Is that you Enzo? kidding

I know he lives I believe on the main road to knowl by Balsall common

Must drink in the Sarra then if he walks to the Pub!

Terry Gibson's perm · Jul 17, 2024

When they appoint the next manager unless it is one of the elite like Pep or Klopp they need to calm down on the wages offered Southgate was far to well paid and all that money is taken away from grass root football, one million per year with a bonus for winning tournaments is more than enough for part time work.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Agreed. His weaknesses has been the UCL where he’s arguably underachieved as a manager given the teams he’s managed.

As with Klopp, these managers require their teams to be well drilled to a man. How would either manager react if, like this squad, you need to replace 12 players from the squad you had 2 years prior?

Pep seemingly cannot be beaten over a domestic campaign where those one off results (usually against Palace or Spurs) will be levelled out over the season. It’s those cup game moments where Pep will overthink his approach and make errors.

That’s been a massive blind spot of the footballing commentariat in this country. Ultimately, the next manager has to win a major trophy to be considered better than Southgate.

The best non-English candidate for me would be Tuchel who has a track record in setting up teams for major tournaments and overachieving. The way he is with the press, however, is a big negative in the context of the England job.

I agree with this and increasingly don’t see any issue with handing Carsley the role at least in the interim. Though as an aside, we do need something in this country to get home grown managers to an elite standard-there’s no excuse given how much money is in the game for us to have no English manager in that bracket.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 17, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I agree with this and increasingly don’t see any issue with handing Carsley the role at least in the interim. Though as an aside, we do need something in this country to get home grown managers to an elite standard-there’s no excuse given how much money is in the game for us to have no English manager in that bracket.

Potter was in that bracket until he took the poisoned chalice at Chelsea. I’d love for him to get the England job and smash it for us to restore his reputation.

He’s rejected quite a few roles already since Chelsea so clearly has his eyes on something…

Carsley was rumoured to be more integrated into the senior setup had Southgate stayed on till 2026 and he has already turned down a few senior international roles.

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
His weaknesses has been the UCL where he’s arguably underachieved as a manager given the teams he’s managed.

The final against Chelsea is burned in my mind. Some bizarre tactical and team choices lost it for them, pure and simple.

And he can't just go out and buy another left back when Shaw gets injured again.

Evo1883 · Jul 17, 2024

I'm not sure it's all about cups though , because if it was we'd all be screaming for mourinho as he's won the lot

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 17, 2024

Evo1883 said:
I'm not sure it's all about cups though , because if it was we'd all be screaming for mourinho as he's won the lot

He’d also probably only want a tilt at the World Cup before sacking it off. I’d prefer someone prepared to spend years in the post making it their own. Like Southgate did but with fewer footballing war crimes

Evo1883 · Jul 17, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
He’d also probably only want a tilt at the World Cup before sacking it off. I’d prefer someone prepared to spend years in the post making it their own. Like Southgate did but with fewer footballing war crimes

With the right players I've seen mourinho get porto , chelsea and madrid playing some of the best counter attacking football in my life

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 17, 2024

Evo1883 said:
With the right players I've seen mourinho get porto , chelsea and madrid playing some of the best counter attacking football in my life

Absolutely, don’t disagree at all. However-I get strong Capello vibes from appointing him, doubt his heart would be in it.

SBAndy · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I know Howe is your favourite, to me it’s just not the move for him to make right now. Newcastle have an exciting project and he’s under contract.

If we’re going English, it’s Potter or Carsley for me. Both managers hit well with the so-called ‘English DNA’ as both have proven to be tactically flexible.

If you’ve watched the same videos I have, then you’ll be aware of the various problems Carsley had to deal with in the lead up to that tournament - losing key personnel upfront and in midfield. He was able to think out of the box too which is what I think is needed with this team. There’s so many pieces to put together I can see why Southgate perhaps struggled finishing his best team and system post-Qatar 2022.

My gut feeling was that I felt Southgate would be a success with England and he’s turned out to be our best manager since Sir Alf Ramsey and clearly the best option at the time. The foundation has been set nicely for someone else to build on what he has done (for all his faults) and Carsley could be well placed. It worked for Spain, so why not us?

The FA seem to have a plan to lure Pep, which would involve hiring an interim manager for one year. For me, we should trust in the talented coaches we have at our disposal.

May even give an opportunity to Angel Gomes who is quite frankly ridiculous with the ball at his feet.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 17, 2024

Deleted member 5849 said:
The final against Chelsea is burned in my mind. Some bizarre tactical and team choices lost it for them, pure and simple.

And he can't just go out and buy another left back when Shaw gets injured again.

Exactly, agreed on both points. It’s a fantasy appointment and one I do not believe is realistic.

In international management, you need to be able to adapt to your personnel, the top managers do precisely the opposite. They buy players who will perform the functions they want in the system they play.

International football is more like chess, one blunder in a KO round, and you’re out. Hiring Pep or Klopp is not the slam dunk people think it is.

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Exactly, agreed on both points. It’s a fantasy appointment and one I do not believe is realistic.

In international management, you need to be able to adapt to your personnel, the top managers do precisely the opposite. They buy players who will perform the functions they want in the system they play.

International football is more like chess, one blunder in a KO round, and you’re out. Hiring Pep or Klopp is not the slam dunk people think it is.

Don't get me wrong, Guadiola's obviously a top manager - you don't win as much as he does without being so no matter what resources, and I'd be a nutter to say otherwise(!)

But his European record is indeed underachievement if anything, and some of his final tactics are odd in the extreme. Southgate isn't the only one who can make seemingly strange choices as per Italy, it happens to the best of them and that does need to be kept in mind. The Chelsea final was just absurd really, threw away a trophy that was their's for the taking.

Deleted member 9744 · Jul 17, 2024

Grendel said:
I think people forget what a shambles England were off the pitch before let alone on it.

Players with inflated egos, cliques and a hostile press. Potter started to crumble at Chelsea after a few weeks. Howe looks very agitated and tetchy when he’s questioned on Newcastle and its owners.

Potter was totally out of his depth at Chelsea and Brighton improved when he left. Howe couldn't cope with questions about the Saudi takeover. I think both would be very poor choices.

Deleted member 9744 · Jul 17, 2024

Nick said:
He isn't successful though?

Compared to every other one in my living memory he is.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 17, 2024

Nick said:
He isn't successful though?

You look at the state of the team and their performances at major tournaments, and where he left it… it’s in a far better place.

Highest win %, best tournament performances, most goals per game at a World Cup, first manager to beat Germany (and Netherlands) in a KO game since 1966.

He didn’t win a trophy but if that’s the only benchmark for success, then you just can’t appreciate nuance.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
You look at the state of the team and their performances at major tournaments, and where he left it… it’s in a far better place.

Highest win %, best tournament performances, most goals per game at a World Cup, first manager to beat Germany (and Netherlands) in a KO game since 1966.

He didn’t win a trophy but if that’s the only benchmark for success, then you just can’t appreciate nuance.

The quality of football, which was over cautious to begin with then descended into the awful performances we saw in Germany, should matter too. You might be pleased with them, they were alarmingly poor in my view and the manager was beyond lucky to have reached a final playing like that.

CCFCSteve · Jul 17, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The quality of football, which was over cautious to begin with then descended into the awful performances we saw in Germany, should matter too. You might be pleased with them, they were alarmingly poor in my view and the manager was beyond lucky to have reached a final playing like that.

I agree that the performances were pretty poor at the Euros with the exception of the Netherlands first half. From memory though our QF against France in the World Cup we were very good and arguably deserved to win. If Kane scored his pen we might well do

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 17, 2024

CCFCSteve said:
I agree that the performances were pretty poor at the Euros with the exception of the Netherlands first half. From memory though our QF against France in the World Cup we were very good and arguably deserved to win. If Kane scored his pen we might well do

Yeah, I don't think anybody would claim this particular tournament saw us reach the final with anything like authority... but I keep seeing people say if you play a certain way you'll be found out. Well Southgate has played a certain way and done better than any manager since Ramsey... and you'd maybe best stop his record after 1970 too, given he didn't qualify for the next two tournaments! And his tactical choices in 1970 were... curious, too.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 17, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The quality of football, which was over cautious to begin with then descended into the awful performances we saw in Germany, should matter too. You might be pleased with them, they were alarmingly poor in my view and the manager was beyond lucky to have reached a final playing like that.

I’m not pleased with spending thousands of pounds for the matches I got to see. I’m just pragmatic that results are king and this is all that actually matters in the grand scheme of things.

The choice of teams you used to describe how you wanted England to play was not great. Most of them lost 2 games of 4 or 5 and experienced heavy loses (Romania, Turkey and Georgia). The best example, Germany only beat Scotland, Hungary and Denmark. Not exactly inspiring.

We’ve been and done that with ‘heroic failure’ and we’ve come close under Southgate 3 times. Clearly he doesn’t believe he can take the next step and that fine. There’s only a few tactical tweaks that we need to make to get us over the line, being braver in possession and make a decision on who to build the team around; Foden, Bellingham or Kane.

If you carefully watched Spain, they had some really interesting tactical ideas. They didn’t press as high and happier to be more direct and counter attacking compared to past Spain teams. They had well developed patterns of play to get their danger involved which we frankly didn’t.

In the first half when they were more ‘tiki taka’, they didn’t lay a glove on us - similarly to how we were v Slovakia and Switzerland. Where they really hurt us was on the counter when the game opened up at 1-0. For the winner, they caught us on the counter again when Guehi aimlessly punts the ball up - it wasn’t a case of them breaking down a negative defensive shape. Same with Italy in 2021, they scored from the equaliser via a set-piece that pinballed around the box.

In short, we’re closer than a lot of people think and we don’t need to chuck the baby out with the bath water. Improvements need to made tactically, game plan and personnel-wise.

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Improvements need to made tactically, game plan and personnel-wise.

So everywhere then?

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 17, 2024

Deleted member 5849 said:
So everywhere then?

Making tweaks, yes. In 2022, the formula was mostly right and a few subtle changes and it hasn’t quite worked out since.

We battered Wales, Iran and Senegal and looked marginally the better team against France, imo. Come 2024, the rise of Foden and Bellingham as genuine world class stars has had several unintended consequences.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I’m not pleased with spending thousands of pounds for the matches I got to see. I’m just pragmatic that results are king and this is all that actually matters in the grand scheme of things.

The choice of teams you used to describe how you wanted England to play was not great. Most of them lost 2 games of 4 or 5 and experienced heavy loses (Romania, Turkey and Georgia). The best example, Germany only beat Scotland, Hungary and Denmark. Not exactly inspiring.

You are more likely to get good results by playing good football, no? I didn't suggest we carbon copy the tactics of those teams, just use the principle of playing more positively, at higher tempo, and with some vague attacking intent. England played extremely negative football, generating a pathetic xG and only keeping two clean sheets from seven anyway.

You might get further in a tournament despite playing like that, but you will never win one-and that must ultimately be our ambition. I don't accept that England are destined never to win a tournament again as some claim.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 17, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
You are more likely to get good results by playing good football, no? I didn't suggest we carbon copy the tactics of those teams, just use the principle of playing more positively, at higher tempo, and with some vague attacking intent. England played extremely negative football, generating a pathetic xG and only keeping two clean sheets from seven anyway.

You might get further in a tournament despite playing like that, but you will never win one-and that must ultimately be our ambition. I don't accept that England are destined never to win a tournament again as some claim.

Define ‘good football’, to save time, you can’t because it’s subjective.

In 2022, the team was bang on and could go toe-to-toe with anyone, and they did. 2024, by contrast, Southgate away from his usual tactics and started a team with less runners and strong dribblers around Kane. Likewise, we lacked a solid option to sit next to Rice and despite Mainoo’s emergence, still lacked a bit of defensive skill in Henderson and Phillips (two players rightly not involved this time).

The Athletic contributors put it quite well. In the Southgate era, England has been ‘Kane’s team’ and the team was built around him. Now we have Bellingham, Foden and Kane and the team isn’t geared to get the best out of any of them. If anything, our best attacking player was Saka.

The first thing the next manager needs to do is decides who he is building team around and how to get the best of them.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 17, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Define ‘good football’, to save time, you can’t because it’s subjective.

In 2022, the team was bang on and could go toe-to-toe with anyone, and they did. 2024, by contrast, Southgate away from his usual tactics and started a team with less runners and strong dribblers around Kane. Likewise, we lacked a solid option to sit next to Rice and despite Mainoo’s emergence, still lacked a bit of defensive skill in Henderson and Phillips (two players rightly not involved this time).

The Athletic contributors put it quite well. In the Southgate era, England has been ‘Kane’s team’ and the team was built around him. Now we have Bellingham, Foden and Kane and the team isn’t geared to get the best out of any of them. If anything, our best attacking player was Saka.

The first thing the next manager needs to do is decides who he is building team around and how to get the best of them.

The old fashioned eye test. The performances were dreadful, the xG worse than some sides who exited at the group stage, and even this fabled team of 2022 committed a footballing atrocity against the US.

You have written about heroic failures of the past. All I have seen in the Southgate era is a couple more of those, just at later stages than usual.

Liquid Gold · Jul 17, 2024

He definitely didn't evolve the team well enough this time round.

His era was mostly focused on runners like Sterling and Rashford whose instincts are to head to goal getting beyond Kane when he drops deep and defenders follow him.

With Foden and Bellingham in behind this time they tended to stick to their position and with Kane still dropping deep we ended up with nobody pushing the opposition backline and that's reflected by our awful shots on target and xG stats.

Next manager has to decide if he puts more pressure on Kane, phases out our record goalscorer for someone who will occupy defenders more or pressures our AMs to do things they aren't used to doing as regularly for their clubs.

Either one of those things will be used as a stick to beat them with if we don't get a trophy.

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 17, 2024

Liquid Gold said:
His era was mostly focused on runners like Sterling and Rashford whose instincts are to head to goal getting beyond Kane when he drops deep and defenders follow him.

Yeah, and he picked both of those at times when people were aginst him doing so - that strength of will hasn't quite been there this tournament.

Does surprise me Gordon didn't get more minutes. In his 30 seconds or whatever they were on the field, he looked just what we needed!

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 17, 2024

Deleted member 5849 said:
Yeah, and he picked both of those at times when people were aginst him doing so - that strength of will hasn't quite been there this tournament.

Does surprise me Gordon didn't get more minutes. In his 30 seconds or whatever they were on the field, he looked just what we needed!

Likewise Cole Palmer to be fair

Sky_Blue_Daz · Jul 17, 2024

Was listening to talksport earlier and a guy suggested Sean Dyche should get the job

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