snozzer, brinner, dark knight (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter skybluereeve
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ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
OSB - exactly, agree 100% - therefore I again ask how on earth do SISU expect to make any money from this failed venture? Are they honestly going to wait the 10 or so years for ACL to pay off the loan? The HT option expires in 4 years and then the price will be much higher as like the council portion it would have to be at fair market rate. Maybe I am being thick but I simply fail to see how SISU expect to come out of this without losing their investors substantial amounts of money? Surely they should be looking to cut their losses and get out with the minimum of damage - whilst I believe operating costs must now be close to break even and therefore they are no longer having to sell assets to cover losses I do fear a fire sale of any saleable assets (not that there is many of them) in January before an ignominious exit. Maybe then they would have to negotiate on some future results based pay-back of the loan - ie Premier League and they get 50% back or some such. But their exit all seems to hinge around the ownership of the stadium which is why if we want rid of them we must put pressure on the council and HT not to sell to them.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I know jan it doesnt make sense.
why pay out £10m for the shares knowing you wont get any return for 10 to 12 years. Infact knowing that it will actually cost more because of contributions to other development costs. ACL are all about inward investment CCFC would not be allowed to sweep funds across to fund the football club.
I think the Ricoh is in safe hands especially in respect of dealing with SISU & CCFC. The Ricoh is too successful, too much of an icon for the City of Coventry now for it to be put at risk in the hands of secretive London financiers. But it never hurts to encourage the current owners to do the right thing.
It isnt down to just SISU, the football club have shot their bolt over many years of poor, possibly dodgy management. I am not sure they will ever get their hands on it again. That doesnt mean that they couldnt work deals to purchase back or lease some of the income sources though, that is a possibility i would think.
Surely as things stand if they had £10m wouldnt it be better spent in getting a successful team or buying in income?
why pay out £10m for the shares knowing you wont get any return for 10 to 12 years. Infact knowing that it will actually cost more because of contributions to other development costs. ACL are all about inward investment CCFC would not be allowed to sweep funds across to fund the football club.
I think the Ricoh is in safe hands especially in respect of dealing with SISU & CCFC. The Ricoh is too successful, too much of an icon for the City of Coventry now for it to be put at risk in the hands of secretive London financiers. But it never hurts to encourage the current owners to do the right thing.
It isnt down to just SISU, the football club have shot their bolt over many years of poor, possibly dodgy management. I am not sure they will ever get their hands on it again. That doesnt mean that they couldnt work deals to purchase back or lease some of the income sources though, that is a possibility i would think.
Surely as things stand if they had £10m wouldnt it be better spent in getting a successful team or buying in income?
The ACL part is surely just a stepping stone towards owning the whole stadium. If you for a moment forget the name and history of current and previous owners then it would be the dream scenario if the club and the stadium again were under one hat.
Times changes and somewhere down the line I think it will be beneficial to both club and city if club and stadium were run soundly(!) by one investor group.
Here's a challenge: If sisu should be able to turn around the business that is this club and actually start gaining a small profit instead of continuesly stocking up losses, and should they succeed in getting us promoted to PL - do you then think the council will veto a deal to take over the stadium?
I know it all sound impossible and in best case will take many years, but to me it makes sense.
If someone spend 10m on players then losses will go up again! For all the reasons you have given to why the club should start living within its means, I think you are contradicting yourself
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
That depends on how it is spent and how it is put into the club. Say you purchased the advertising and food outlet rights to the stadium - that would be income generating in theory
say you gave the club £10m loan and wrote it off against the purchase and or wages of a player or two - wouldnt affect profitability.
Got to be more creative - the old way of doing things clearly does not work or achieve the objectives
Do you not think that there is too much bad blood now between fans, The stadium and SISU ? Their only hope of a return is to deal with the finances make the club more financially attractive, then sell on. By that time the then new owners are then going to have to pay proper market value for an interest in ACL and unless the deal they put forward included planned investment to develop the stadium further & maintain standards then yes i think either the Charity or the Council or both would say no.
As for owning the stadium outright SISU and their clients do not have either the expertise or money to do it imo. So that isnt even on the table for any forseeable future
say you gave the club £10m loan and wrote it off against the purchase and or wages of a player or two - wouldnt affect profitability.
Got to be more creative - the old way of doing things clearly does not work or achieve the objectives
Do you not think that there is too much bad blood now between fans, The stadium and SISU ? Their only hope of a return is to deal with the finances make the club more financially attractive, then sell on. By that time the then new owners are then going to have to pay proper market value for an interest in ACL and unless the deal they put forward included planned investment to develop the stadium further & maintain standards then yes i think either the Charity or the Council or both would say no.
As for owning the stadium outright SISU and their clients do not have either the expertise or money to do it imo. So that isnt even on the table for any forseeable future
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J
Jack Griffin
Guest
I understand the £30M loan has come from SISU investment funds that have been subscribed to by mega rich individuals and/or other investment organisations. I believe it is the case that no more money is coming from this source.
What I am not sure I understand is where this money has gone? Has it simply been spent on the club's salaries, fees, rents, taxes, interest payments, capital equipment & other general expenses over the last 3 1/2 years?
It seems too much for that period, but presumably the increasing debt is visible in the annual accounts. In which case the money is gone and SISU will not budge untill it is repaid with interest or an arrangement is made with a new owner to pay it back over a suitable period.
I think Geoffrey also has an outstanding loan to the club, which started of as £8M when SISU took over and the club still owes that to him. It may have grown if GR charges interest and SISU have not been able to pay? That may be why he is whingeing about SISU recently.
What I am not sure I understand is where this money has gone? Has it simply been spent on the club's salaries, fees, rents, taxes, interest payments, capital equipment & other general expenses over the last 3 1/2 years?
It seems too much for that period, but presumably the increasing debt is visible in the annual accounts. In which case the money is gone and SISU will not budge untill it is repaid with interest or an arrangement is made with a new owner to pay it back over a suitable period.
I think Geoffrey also has an outstanding loan to the club, which started of as £8M when SISU took over and the club still owes that to him. It may have grown if GR charges interest and SISU have not been able to pay? That may be why he is whingeing about SISU recently.
When the Arena was built there was nothing but the Club and the not-very-successful Isle of Capri Casino. At that stage it was well within the financial grasp of a well-managed Club to buy its way back in. Things have moved on. The Club has become progressively weaker financially and ACL has grown the business at the Ricoh. The non-football business is now 5 times the football business and will continue to grow. If CCFC grew through promotion so ACL's business will grow. If CCFC shrinks it will affect but not kill ACL. The time has probably come where any potential purchaser of the football club will see it as a part of a much bigger operation. They would want to be investing in hotels and leisure on the carparks and surrounding land. The "business" of the club would be a smaller and smaller part of the business at the Ricoh EVEN IF CCFC was in the Premier League. For any potential purchaser of shares in ACL, now is the time to get on board because growth on growth will make the entry cost more. If SISU are serious about a future in Coventry then they must think and invest BIG. The Council and the Charity are going to drive ACL to be bigger and ever more profitable because that will both bring them a greater return in the long run but in the short term will continue to bring re-generation to the City. John Mutton as leader of the Council has been more than clear that he will not, nor cannot allow, the future of the Ricoh be dribbled away by anybody who is not prepared to invest in both the Club's and the City's future.
Agree with that.
Gifts are always welcome, but investors are not like that. They want a return of their investment and assest to offset against their investment.
You know what - I think too many have tried to be too creative for too long. Going back to the old virtues of 'living within means' and paying back whats owed' is the right way to do it. Albeit not creative or fancy.
I do, but who's feeding the press, who's stirring up the fans? Who have friends in high places? Who have a bone to pick over previous differencies?
Follow the money.
There are people in the shadows who see an opportunity in getting sisu frozen out. People who want to make money just as much as bad as sisu. And not for the love of the club, but for their own personal profit. (They are no different than the current owners, just better at PR and networking).
Catch 22. No way will potential new owners pay out £30+m to sisu to be able to invest in the stadium. And I think there's no way sisu are leaving before they have exhausted all their options.
We don't know their clients, so we can't just assume they don't have the money to buy the stadium. But it is more than likely they won't put in more money until sisu have turned the club around.
As I said - 'I know it all sound impossible and in best case will take many years, but to me it makes sense'.
Very sensible post.
You know what - if the stadium was 100% owned by private investors or even another hedge fund, they would probably buy the club. And then (what should be) the fans wettest dream would come through.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Investors have to look at the bigger picture Godiva - maybe gift or write off some to gain far greater value
I said creative not risky or dodgy. Buying back the advertising income stream would be creative and give the possibility of increasing returns. It does not mean living outside of our means.
The PR causing most bad blood generally originates from the club imo or potential investors there. It saddens me that people blast the charity & council for protecting what is now a valuable asset to the City of Coventry. The football club side of things have tended to be arrogant in approach, thinking they can brow beat others in to doing as they are told..... think they have been given a nose bleed on that one.
Any new owners might not need to repay all the £30m, they might repay some and structure repayable loans for some or all the rest. Above all they have to look way past the club if they are going to make the purchase successful. They may have to accept partnering the Charity and Council. There are far more options than people think.
If SISU clients were able to do this why havent they. The in to the scheme has a finite life at low value after which it will get very costly. They either dont see the big picture or cant afford it...... frankly either counts them out
I said creative not risky or dodgy. Buying back the advertising income stream would be creative and give the possibility of increasing returns. It does not mean living outside of our means.
The PR causing most bad blood generally originates from the club imo or potential investors there. It saddens me that people blast the charity & council for protecting what is now a valuable asset to the City of Coventry. The football club side of things have tended to be arrogant in approach, thinking they can brow beat others in to doing as they are told..... think they have been given a nose bleed on that one.
Any new owners might not need to repay all the £30m, they might repay some and structure repayable loans for some or all the rest. Above all they have to look way past the club if they are going to make the purchase successful. They may have to accept partnering the Charity and Council. There are far more options than people think.
If SISU clients were able to do this why havent they. The in to the scheme has a finite life at low value after which it will get very costly. They either dont see the big picture or cant afford it...... frankly either counts them out
Not from the start although the potential was and is there. The hotel planning permission was granted two years ago when there was an investor wanting to build. It costs a lot to get through the whole planning process and they put up the money for that but whilst that was happening the world fell apart and the developer presumably lost their backers or their purchaser and could go no further.
ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
Original hotel plan was on the waste land in 2006 but this as PWKH says was shelved - current plan from 2010 is to build on Car Park C. If anyone is really bored here is a link to the council notes on the proposal (God have I got this sad!)
http://cmis.coventry.gov.uk/CMISWebPublic/Binary.ashx?Document=16895
http://cmis.coventry.gov.uk/CMISWebPublic/Binary.ashx?Document=16895
ccfcdan
New Member
This is all starting to make sense now. Thanks guys for breaking this down to us not so well educated forumers.
However theres still one big question that nobody has been able to answer........What the hell happened to the bloody water feature???
The sites still there and theres a concrete block in the middle but no water feature!!
Could someone please answer this?
However theres still one big question that nobody has been able to answer........What the hell happened to the bloody water feature???
The sites still there and theres a concrete block in the middle but no water feature!!
Could someone please answer this?
TheParsonsHose
Member
Seems it is no!
Found that sky blue sports and leisure is now owned by sconset capital (96%) and Brody (4%) and not by sisu capital.
But seems that this is just restructuring and something along the lines of avro mastertrust which someone said something about last week.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
any chance of the link etc crowsnest please?
Companies house again osb.
The only thing was in oct 2010 susi funds/ranson owned all the shares, but this year they are saying the shares were transfered in Sept 2010!
Sconset and avro mastertrust get mentioned in todays interview in the CT. Not online yet, usually Saturdays paper goes out on the web on Monday.
snipets from ken
Why did you resign? about the right time, never oing to be long term.
Was it you decision to resign? sisu didn't want me to resign.
Is is not time to talk to Gary Hoffman? i did but i couldn't find any money.
Lots od different companies and funds are being set up? sisu basically is a bank with loads of funds, they need different instruments so it doesn't get confused.
Administration before the end of the season? it would be hugely disappointing if that happened.
Is Andy's job safe? as far as i am concerned, absolutely.
Lack of incoming players? Andy and the scouts haven't found the right players that are better than what we have got.
The only thing was in oct 2010 susi funds/ranson owned all the shares, but this year they are saying the shares were transfered in Sept 2010!
Sconset and avro mastertrust get mentioned in todays interview in the CT. Not online yet, usually Saturdays paper goes out on the web on Monday.
snipets from ken
Why did you resign? about the right time, never oing to be long term.
Was it you decision to resign? sisu didn't want me to resign.
Is is not time to talk to Gary Hoffman? i did but i couldn't find any money.
Lots od different companies and funds are being set up? sisu basically is a bank with loads of funds, they need different instruments so it doesn't get confused.
Administration before the end of the season? it would be hugely disappointing if that happened.
Is Andy's job safe? as far as i am concerned, absolutely.
Lack of incoming players? Andy and the scouts haven't found the right players that are better than what we have got.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
cheers crowsnest
Bennets Afro
Well-Known Member
How can he say that they haven't found any better players?
We are shit!
We are shit!
TheParsonsHose
Member
Sounds like the scouts at other clubs must be idiots then as there has been lots of movement elsewhere