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skyblue025 · May 6, 2013

From GMK.

The 60 Million?

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/

Not sure if it has been posted on here as i haven't been on much. If it has apologies.

Makes interesting reading.

ajsccfc · May 6, 2013

I think someone did pop it up on here a few days ago, but no harm done in a repeat.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 6, 2013

skyblue025 said:
From GMK.

The 60 Million?

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/

Not sure if it has been posted on here as i haven't been on much. If it has apologies.

Makes interesting reading.

Posted here some time ago.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 6, 2013

skyblue025 said:
From GMK.

The 60 Million?

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/

Not sure if it has been posted on here as i haven't been on much. If it has apologies.

Makes interesting reading.

Posted here some time ago.

Ashdown1 · May 6, 2013

Absolute can of worms, I wish we had an experienced accountant to sum that up in about 12 lines !

Nonleagueherewecome · May 6, 2013

Ashdown1 said:
Absolute can of worms, I wish we had an experienced accountant to sum that up in about 12 lines !

I can do it in two: duplicitous bastards.

ccfc92 · May 6, 2013

Nonleagueherewecome said:
I can do it in two: duplicitous bastards.

Typical rich making other rich people richer and ruining what we all love :-(

thegameaintstraight · May 6, 2013

Nonleagueherewecome said:
I can do it in two: duplicitous bastards.[/QUOTE

Quite.
The limited liability company is the greatest invention of modern times.
Particularly if you own a hedge fund.

georgehudson · May 7, 2013

yep, it was posted on here before, & i waded through it, & yes, it is a muddle,
i would question whether that is by design ?
as such, the courts should come down heavily upon the perpetrators,
take them to task,
& most importantly NOT HARM COVENTRY CITY,
football fans want nothing less,
PUSB

psgm1 · May 7, 2013

Ashdown1 said:
Absolute can of worms, I wish we had an experienced accountant to sum that up in about 12 lines !

Not an accountant, but basically (as I read it)...

SiSU have been charging around £2.6m in management charges,

The £60 million IS NOT the REAL debt within the club

Pretty much all the debt is owned by other companies within the sisu group.

Sisu are INFAMOUS throughout the financial world for DELIBERATELY making things as convoluted as possible. (I presume the reasoning is that time is money in business, and generally its cheaper to buy off sisu than take it through the long haul!)

Ashdown1 · May 7, 2013

psgm1 said:
Not an accountant, but basically (as I read it)...

SiSU have been charging around £2.6m in management charges,

The £60 million IS NOT the REAL debt within the club

Pretty much all the debt is owned by other companies within the sisu group.

Sisu are INFAMOUS throughout the financial world for DELIBERATELY making things as convoluted as possible. (I presume the reasoning is that time is money in business, and generally its cheaper to buy off sisu than take it through the long haul!)

Its disgusting and unethical. The club have no future and no chance of competing with these leeches anywhere near our books, no wonder they are hanging on for grim death !!

Skybluesquirrel · May 9, 2013

Hello all

Ive been working on the next instalment that has just gone up on the blog, this time trying to get to the bottom of how much cash SISU have actually invested in the club. In my opinion, not anywhere near the £60 million claimed in the High Court which confirms evidence put forward before.

This one is not as long and hopefully less complicated.

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/think-ill-buy-me-a-football-team/

DaleM · May 9, 2013

Skybluesquirrel said:
Hello all

Ive been working on the next instalment that has just gone up on the blog, this time trying to get to the bottom of how much cash SISU have actually invested in the club. In my opinion, not anywhere near the £60 million claimed in the High Court which confirms evidence put forward before.

This one is not as long and hopefully less complicated.

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/think-ill-buy-me-a-football-team/

Good stuff . Some murky goings on in my opinion. Hopefully time will tell IF it all comes out in court.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 9, 2013

Skybluesquirrel said:
Hello all

Ive been working on the next instalment that has just gone up on the blog, this time trying to get to the bottom of how much cash SISU have actually invested in the club. In my opinion, not anywhere near the £60 million claimed in the High Court which confirms evidence put forward before.

This one is not as long and hopefully less complicated.

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/think-ill-buy-me-a-football-team/

Hopefully shouldn't be too difficult-just look at the last accounts filed for SBS+L and see how much is owed to SISU equity funds (of which there are 5 going into the company I believe) and ARVO.

Skybluesquirrel · May 9, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Hopefully shouldn't be too difficult-just look at the last accounts filed for SBS+L and see how much is owed to SISU equity funds (of which there are 5 going into the company I believe) and ARVO.

Absolutely, should be straight forward. I wanted to try and see if its possible to confirm how much of that debt was invested as cash. It was a post on one of the other threads that took me off in that direction. For some reason there was scepticism as to what SISU had actually put in

georgehudson · May 9, 2013

splendid effort 'sbsq',
do we assume that Mr Appleton & Ms Justice Proudman concur ?

psgm1 · May 9, 2013

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/think-ill-buy-me-a-football-team/

Outstanding work chap! Finally by hook or by crook someone is doing the job that the local media and certain interested parties either cannot or will not do!

I'm sure I have over simplified, but in the bottom paragraph (as it is 09/05/13) as I read your blog, it appears sisu have shall we say been creative with how much debt the club genuinely owes, in that the debt claimed is actually at least £34 million or so less than the £60 mill or so sisu have been claiming? Is this a fair assessment?

It looks like a lot of loans to itself, so I presume this is used, so loans can be written off for tax purposes in some way or another. Again is this fair to say?

So if I have got it right, the more realistic debts (loans to itself etc) is roughly £25 million, then would I be far from the mark to assume companies in admin if taken over generally have debts reduced to within 10-20% of the original figure - making in theory a buy-out for a £25 mill in debt club of between £2.5m - £5m (10-20% of £25m).

If we take the assumption that because Ltd is in effect a pure on-paper company, then the courts will eventually rule Holdings and Ltd are one and the same, then presumably this will mean that holdings are in effect in administration. Then again if on this line, the club could conceivably be bought for between £2.5 & £5m if they take on the £25m debt at between 10-20%.

Could be well off the mark here, and I'm sure the author could say more authoritatively if this is a cogent argument, then the prospect of buying a club with the potential it clearly has with a decent manager when they eventually get one, a half decent squad, and clear objectives for under £10 mill is potentially quite attractive!

However the only people who know the true state of debt are sisu, and they have no reason to make it easy for anyone else!

Well done squirrel and hope my blatherings are vaguely understandable and if you could clarify any points I have made would be grateful!

SkyBlueBlood · May 10, 2013

I don't get the benefit of the £2.6 million a year for SISU's maladministration. They have surely not seen any cash for that or it would not exist as a debt, so the only way they could redeem it without City getting to the Premier League would be to sell to someone gullible enough to believe they have invested this amount which would be around £16 million by now plus the other theoretical debt they have generated and pay that as a purchase price. That was never going to happen and under administration they will probably get less than 10% of the proven debt which is why they are fighting so hard to hang on to their "Destroy Coventry City Project".

Skybluesquirrel · May 10, 2013

psgm1 said:
http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/think-ill-buy-me-a-football-team/

Outstanding work chap! Finally by hook or by crook someone is doing the job that the local media and certain interested parties either cannot or will not do!

I'm sure I have over simplified, but in the bottom paragraph (as it is 09/05/13) as I read your blog, it appears sisu have shall we say been creative with how much debt the club genuinely owes, in that the debt claimed is actually at least £34 million or so less than the £60 mill or so sisu have been claiming? Is this a fair assessment?

It looks like a lot of loans to itself, so I presume this is used, so loans can be written off for tax purposes in some way or another. Again is this fair to say?

So if I have got it right, the more realistic debts (loans to itself etc) is roughly £25 million, then would I be far from the mark to assume companies in admin if taken over generally have debts reduced to within 10-20% of the original figure - making in theory a buy-out for a £25 mill in debt club of between £2.5m - £5m (10-20% of £25m).

If we take the assumption that because Ltd is in effect a pure on-paper company, then the courts will eventually rule Holdings and Ltd are one and the same, then presumably this will mean that holdings are in effect in administration. Then again if on this line, the club could conceivably be bought for between £2.5 & £5m if they take on the £25m debt at between 10-20%.

Could be well off the mark here, and I'm sure the author could say more authoritatively if this is a cogent argument, then the prospect of buying a club with the potential it clearly has with a decent manager when they eventually get one, a half decent squad, and clear objectives for under £10 mill is potentially quite attractive!

However the only people who know the true state of debt are sisu, and they have no reason to make it easy for anyone else!

Well done squirrel and hope my blatherings are vaguely understandable and if you could clarify any points I have made would be grateful!

Imagine if you daughter runs up 10 grands worth of debt on a credit card, living beyond her means. She eventually tells you, so you speak to Visa and arrange to pay off 2 grand as a final offer, telling them it that or nothing. They agree, some is better than nothing. You then borrow the money off your parents to pay of the debt, telling them its an investment that should pay off once she gets the money back by sticking some of the stuff she bought on ebay.

You buy the debts for £10K, pay them off at £2K, saving £8K. But, you don't mention to your daughter that the debt is cleared - you want her to always know and remember how much debt she acquired. Otherwise she won't sell the stuff on ebay. She puts stuff up for sale, but its a recession and no-one buys. By the time she comes to marry some years later, she's still living beyond her means but her future husband wants to clear all her debts to start afresh. She's added another 5 grand to her credit card and is behind on her rent. Guess which amount you start your calculations from.

There's nothing illegal going on, its just isn't the way most people would act. The debts have already been dealt with, but appear to still be due as far as your future son in law is concerned. You could choose to take advantage of the situation as you had the idea to talk to the visa company in the first place. If you do, the son in law pays you in full, the 10 grand plus another 6 for the more recent debts. You then pay back your parents and give them a bonus for investing. You keep the rest for you being such a clever boy...

BTW, Ebay in this case is promotion to the premier league. Hopefully you can identify the other parties!

Going back to CCFC, the courts will never see all the companies as one and the same. When you set up a limited company, even if you become the only director, it becomes its own entity separate from you. The FL may view them as the same, hence the possibility of points deductions.

wingy · May 10, 2013

superb analogy.

blend · May 10, 2013

Excellent, and yet some still cannot see that they are being shafted from behind

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