Serious question about ACL, CCC (11 Viewers)

duffer · Oct 25, 2013

stupot07 said:
The sliding scale that they turned down was still £1.2m in the championship, more expensive in the PL, but cheaper in league one and two. We don't know how cheap. It also included a cost per fan over a certain level, so not the great deal people like you think it is when you make the "rejecting the sliding scale" argument.

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In fairness, I don't know the exact figures, happy to see evidence from anyone who does, but this suggests 500k in champ, 1.5m in the prem.

http://m.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/news/810246

Take your point on the additional rent per seat over a certain amount, which might not have made it such a good deal, but again I don't have the figures. There wouldn't be much point in offering a deal that would've seen them pay more in the division they were in though, would there?

And again, when did the rent become an issue for SISU?

Grendel · Oct 25, 2013

letsallsingtogether said:
Why were we never bankrupt when we were at Highfield road? Oh yes that same CHARITY that looks after any citizen in Coventry not just football fans, had to bale them out.
So why should they now not get there money back money that was donated by the people of Coventry as well as the Higgs family?
Sisu got the club for nothing and have spent nothing don;t care about us or the club.

I love the club but don't like or trust sisu so sorry if you don't like that.

As the bloke who phoned up CWR said today sell them the Ricoh and only the Ricoh no land and lets see how serious they are?

Clearly not as much as "the charity" - are you a sponsor of them?

The bloke I assume was Alan - the one who struggled to construct a sentance. The other guy who attends Sixfields ran rings round him.

stupot07 · Oct 25, 2013

duffer said:
In fairness, I don't know the exact figures, happy to see evidence from anyone who does, but this suggests 500k in champ, 1.5m in the prem.

http://m.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/news/810246

Take your point on the additional rent per seat over a certain amount, which might not have made it such a good deal, but again I don't have the figures. There wouldn't be much point in offering a deal that would've seen them pay more in the division they were in though, would there?

And again, when did the rent become an issue for SISU?

I think the rents always been a problem, it's just that sisu tried to tackle it too late. They should have dealt with it up front, in fact the previous regime should never have agreed to it.

Good article but it is unclear on whether that was what we were asking for or whether that was what ACL were offering.

Some Info from q and a. It's unclear what the championship base rent offer was, but they did want a payment per fan over a certain attendance.

6: Before April 2012 did CCFC ever approach ACL to change the licence or rental value?

ACL: In 2004 and 2005 a proposal was made by Sir Derek Higgs that there should be different base rents for each League with escalators that would relate attendance to payment. He was a shareholder and director of CCFC and a director of ACL. This proposition was rejected by the then Board of CCFC, as although the base rents for the lower Leagues would have resulted in a reduction on the agreed rent, the rent in the Premiership would have been higher. Since SISU bought the club there have been one or two light touch discussions with SISU but nothing that amounted to a serious proposition.

Possible escalators -

CCFC: Yes but additional payments of £3 per spectator over 15k in Championship and £4 per spectator over 16k in Premiership were not acceptable as impacted financial viability (cashflow b/e) and ticket sales our only material source of revenue.

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Grendel · Oct 25, 2013

duffer said:
In fairness, I don't know the exact figures, happy to see evidence from anyone who does, but this suggests 500k in champ, 1.5m in the prem.

http://m.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/news/810246

Take your point on the additional rent per seat over a certain amount, which might not have made it such a good deal, but again I don't have the figures. There wouldn't be much point in offering a deal that would've seen them pay more in the division they were in though, would there?

And again, when did the rent become an issue for SISU?

Pointless. It has now and unless you wake up from your self induced, egocentric coma the club will cease to exist. If the only outcome other then that is SISU wrestle control of the Ricoh and this outcome is not ideal I guess oblivion is your chosen option. Am I correct?

dongonzalos · Oct 25, 2013

The Gentleman said:
New to this posting but have been reading for a bit but wanted to ask a serious question to the likes of Grendel, Fernando, Torch, Hill83, Edgy and Robon to name some. What is it that ACL/CCC have done that is so bad to cop what they get from you lot continually. Don't bother coming back with smart arse remarks because this is a genuine question.

Welcome to tin cat alley

Sarcasm is all you get when an argument is lost.

I have not read the rest of this thread yet.

I make a bold prediction .....

Grendel · Oct 25, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Welcome to tin cat alley

Sarcasm is all you get when an argument is lost.

I have not read the rest of this thread yet.

I make a bold prediction .....

He has no argument other than he calls ACL we and the club them.

dongonzalos · Oct 25, 2013

torchomatic said:
Well considering you're allegedly new to the board and allegedly asking a genuine question why ask in such a "in your face" manner with the "smart arse" comment? Hardly conducive to friendly debate, is it?

It didn't take you six hours did it?

The Gentleman · Oct 25, 2013

stupot07 said:
Are you saying that you think that £1.2m for 23-25 days per annum was fair level of rent for a championship club?

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No, I'm not saying whether it was a fair rent or not, what I'm saying is that it was set at a level which ACL/CCC and CCFC agreed to at the outset. It would have been a perfect scenario if we would have been asked "so what do you want to pay" but this is the real world and business is business. As i said though, would you deem this a fair rent if we were in the premier league. If Sisu had taken us forwards and not continually backwards and invested in the club to the tune they are now saying they will to build a new stadium then maybe we would be in the premier league and not in league 1, playing our 'home' games in a foreign land.

dongonzalos · Oct 25, 2013

Grendel said:
He has no argument other than he calls ACL we and the club them.

Tbf
To my surprise you were not the first to bite.

dongonzalos · Oct 25, 2013

torchomatic said:
Well, let's face it you'd blame anyone but ACL and CCC.

But you're right. That's nothing to do with it. ACL/CCC are perfectly innocent and have no blame what-so-ever in this farce. I was mistaken.

Oooops second irrational sarcastic reaction to the chaps straight forward question

dongonzalos · Oct 25, 2013

Grendel said:
Ok - worst treatment of any football club in a council stadium in terms of rental payments and revenue gains

- a desire to make commercial gain out if the club regardless of their financial state. Go and look how other councils have treated their clubs.

Ultimately though the issue is this - sisu are a faceless organisation that has zero interest in the football club. The council, you would hope, have done concern at preserving the club in the city. So altruism you would expect as many councils have - Swansea, stoke, forest and Doncaster to name but a few. However, they have demonstrated none.

Depends what you want. I want the club back in Coventry and I have no interest in the council, Higgs and certainly not ACL whose spiteful decision to reject a CVA has left us in the lower eschelons of the league rather than top 6.

This club has never been out of its city when it owned the stadium and had never been bankrupt once let alone twice.

I want the club back regardless - I suspect you'll concern yourself over other matters.

Plaudits a sensible answer.

Wrong in my opinion but sensible nether the less.

Have to ask though. Why if you are so keen for Coventry to be in Coventry. Why were you so supportive of SISU when they threatened to take Coventry away.

The one thing that you say you are focused on.

You backed the actions of the people threatening to create one of your worst case scenario.

You were warned by others what SISU were capable of.

They said what they intended to do.

Yet you applauded and at times seemed to revel in their actions.

dongonzalos · Oct 25, 2013

torchomatic said:
And I've used the same phrase "SISU take the lion's shame of the blame" more than I can remember. Weird that people seem to forget that.

You have I agree

Yet at many times it seems like you forget that

Grendel · Oct 25, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Plaudits a sensible answer.

Wrong in my opinion but sensible nether the less.

Have to ask though. Why if you are so keen for Coventry to be in Coventry. Why were you so supportive of SISU when they threatened to take Coventry

Yet you applauded and at times seemed to revel in their actions.

I wasn't and I didn't.

dongonzalos · Oct 25, 2013

stupot07 said:
The sliding scale that they turned down was still £1.2m in the championship, more expensive in the PL, but cheaper in league one and two. We don't know how cheap. It also included a cost per fan over a certain level, so not the great deal people like you think it is when you make the "rejecting the sliding scale" argument.

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Like you say you don't know what it was

stupot07 · Oct 25, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Like you say you don't know what it was

No, but then I don't drop it into argument to imply it was a great deal and make ACL look good....

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dongonzalos · Oct 25, 2013

stupot07 said:
Are you saying that you think that £1.2m for 23-25 days per annum was fair level of rent for a championship club?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse and spelling or grammar errors

Do you just look at the league level?

Or do you look at the venue, league level sponsorship of the club and attendances etc
The bigger picture.

I would say about 600 k for champ. 1.2 mill prem. 400k league 1

Who knows what the sliding scale would have been.

1.2 million would have been higher than the league one sliding scale.

Fixed is always higher

The Gentleman · Oct 26, 2013

Grendel said:
He has no argument other than he calls ACL we and the club them.

This is what I mean about trying to be a smart arse. My second post I said we but used to think of the whole football club as the royal 'we' before all this bullshit and point scoring came to be. After this I have not referred to ACL/CCC as we or CCFC as them but feel free to dig out the passage if you can. There in lies the problem with some people on here, they will rather put energies into sniping and constantly trying to trip people up and making them look small than actually trying to find ways of getting us out of this mess. There seems to be some very clever people on here and motivated people with these campaign groups for some to get a unified message out to all parties to sort this out. Unfortunately even with this latest group who want us back in Coventry as soon as possible have gone quiet after their protest outside the council house. They wanted some sort of dialogue from the council which they got from Ann Lucas. If they want us back in Coventry so quickly then why have they gone quiet and not started to organise some sort of protest against Sisu. Surely if they are unbiased then this would be their next point of attack.

dongonzalos · Oct 26, 2013

Grendel said:
I wasn't and I didn't.

Seriously

We had many a debate where I said
you encourage SISU in their ruthless business actions they are taking against ACL. Yet they will do the same to the fans you will be outraged.

You denied this saying we need their ruthlessness which is a good thing and they are bluffing and will not screw the fans by relocating.

georgehudson · Oct 26, 2013

Mr Pedantic, or rather, Grendel, what does sentance mean, (no such word), apologies for being picky,
having read most of the thread,
does this not emphasise the fact that it's all about money,
& fans are left by the wayside, AGAIN,
i would propose a poll, of where CCFC fans place the blame,
factors being;
ACL,
A.N.Other,
CCC,
Higgs,
Richardson, et al,
Sisu,

my % vote would be;

ACL 8%
A.N/Other 4%
CCC 15%
Higgs 3%
Richardson, et al 20%
Sisu 50%

imho, of course,
PUSB,
& Coventry City are, & will always be a proud club,
regardless of those who wish to denegrate us

georgehudson · Oct 26, 2013

oops sorry, forgot to mention the Football League, or the FA, but then again they absolve themselves of any blame as an automatic response,
but, if challenged, they would have to take a 'lions share' of blame,
purely due to their utter ineptitude

stupot07 · Oct 26, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Do you just look at the league level?

Or do you look at the venue, league level sponsorship of the club and attendances etc
The bigger picture.

I would say about 600 k for champ. 1.2 mill prem. 400k league 1

Who knows what the sliding scale would have been.

1.2 million would have been higher than the league one sliding scale.

Fixed is always higher

You look at the whole shebang. I think £1.2m is too high for PL give then Swansea pay around £550k for a slightly smaller stadium. I.d go for £700k PL, 300k champ, 200k league one and £100k league two personally, but then you have to do some kind of deal to get access to additions revenues.

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Grendel · Oct 26, 2013

georgehudson said:
Mr Pedantic, or rather, Grendel, what does sentance mean, (no such word), apologies for being picky,
having read most of the thread,
does this not emphasise the fact that it's all about money,
& fans are left by the wayside, AGAIN,
i would propose a poll, of where CCFC fans place the blame,
factors being;
ACL,
A.N.Other,
CCC,
Higgs,
Richardson, et al,
Sisu,

my % vote would be;

ACL 8%
A.N/Other 4%
CCC 15%
Higgs 3%
Richardson, et al 20%
Sisu 50%

imho, of course,
PUSB,
& Coventry City are, & will always be a proud club,
regardless of those who wish to denegrate us

In 2005 I would blame the council - 100%

georgehudson · Oct 26, 2013

well, we ALL know that you would,
& fine, that's an invaluable contribution to the debate,
which, in time, may even become valuable,
PUSB

hill83 · Oct 26, 2013

I'm not sure I've ever really given ACL or the Council any stick have I? Nice to get a mention though.

georgehudson · Oct 26, 2013

i am only giving a personal opinion, & respect others opinions,
whilst not using a 'goad',
my only prevailing wish is for CCFC,
ridding ourselves of the numerous problems, created, & pursued by megolamaniacs,
GIVE US OUR CLUB BACK

ohitsaidwalker king power · Oct 26, 2013

georgehudson said:
Mr Pedantic, or rather, Grendel, what does sentance mean, (no such word), apologies for being picky,
having read most of the thread,
does this not emphasise the fact that it's all about money,
& fans are left by the wayside, AGAIN,
i would propose a poll, of where CCFC fans place the blame,
factors being;
ACL,
A.N.Other,
CCC,
Higgs,
Richardson, et al,
Sisu,

my % vote would be;

ACL 8%
A.N/Other 4%
CCC 15%
Higgs 3%
Richardson, et al 20%
Sisu 50%

imho, of course,
PUSB,
& Coventry City are, & will always be a proud club,
regardless of those who wish to denegrate us

George I await the "why do we have to aportion blame on a percentage basis" crowd..

Grendel said:
In 2005 I would blame the council - 100%

G.. its now 2013- Circa 6 years on in terms of SISU tenure at the helm of CCFC......is it not reasonable to argue that in 6 years their strategy/business plan has failed- as a consequence we are now facing the abyss. How long is it reasonable to blame predecessors/others for your own failings. It's not is it?..... life's not like that nor should it be.
6 Years G... 6 years!!. What have SISU been doing? - where is there a clear demonstration of a business plan to move us forward- I'm looking hard, all I can see though is self destruction and deceipt.

Astute · Oct 26, 2013

hill83 said:
I'm not sure I've ever really given ACL or the Council any stick have I? Nice to get a mention though.

Don't worry. I quite frequently get mentioned from 'your side of the fence' on things I never say

Stay strong. You will recover from the false allegations

bigfatronssba · Oct 26, 2013

Haven't read all of this thread, but surely from a business point of view (and irrespective of who the owner is), it has to be said the the organisation that is ccfc is 100% responsible for the mess its in?

Try as you might but you can't blame the council on a football club that was a stable premiership team, owned its owned ground with a solid fanbase.

The club threw all that away. You can try and blame others if you like but the truth is no outside party made the demise of ccfc happen. They did it all themselves.

stupot07 · Oct 26, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
Haven't read all of this thread, but surely from a business point of view (and irrespective of who the owner is), it has to be said the the organisation that is ccfc is 100% responsible for the mess its in?

Try as you might but you can't blame the council on a football club that was a stable premiership team, owned its owned ground with a solid fanbase.

The club threw all that away. You can try and blame others if you like but the truth is no outside party made the demise of ccfc happen. They did it all themselves.

We were only a stable PL team because owners spent money we didn't have on players we couldn't afford.

And even then we only stayed up by the skin of our teeth.

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bigfatronssba · Oct 26, 2013

stupot07 said:
We were only a stable PL team because owners spent money we didn't have on players we couldn't afford.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse and spelling or grammar errors

Who's fault is that?

Like I say, irrespective of owners, Ccfc is like a guide of how not to run a business.

dongonzalos · Oct 26, 2013

Astute said:
Don't worry. I quite frequently get mentioned from 'your side of the fence' on things I never say

Stay strong. You will recover from the false allegations

I know I am the king of conspiracies

Yet when I ask what conspiracies I started. There is normally no reply or It is usually nothing to do with me.

Quite amusing really. Mud sticks.

torchomatic · Oct 26, 2013

Now this puzzles me. Why do you give so little importance to the role of Bryan Richardson? Without him selling our own ground then there would be no ACL, no SISU, no Joy, no Tim, no PWKH. No conversation.

georgehudson said:
Mr Pedantic, or rather, Grendel, what does sentance mean, (no such word), apologies for being picky,
having read most of the thread,
does this not emphasise the fact that it's all about money,
& fans are left by the wayside, AGAIN,
i would propose a poll, of where CCFC fans place the blame,
factors being;
ACL,
A.N.Other,
CCC,
Higgs,
Richardson, et al,
Sisu,

my % vote would be;

ACL 8%
A.N/Other 4%
CCC 15%
Higgs 3%
Richardson, et al 20%
Sisu 50%

imho, of course,
PUSB,
& Coventry City are, & will always be a proud club,
regardless of those who wish to denegrate us

stupot07 · Oct 26, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
Who's fault is that?

Like I say, irrespective of owners, Ccfc is like a guide of how not to run a business.

Ultimately the club and the fans. Should have spent within our means, and been relegated years ago and tried to have become a yoyo club.

However that doesn't excuse all parties blame in the current rent debacle.

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bigfatronssba · Oct 26, 2013

stupot07 said:
Ultimately the club and the fans. Should have spent within our means, and been relegated years ago and tried to have become a yoyo club.

However that doesn't excuse all parties blame in the current rent debacle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse and spelling or grammar errors

Not sure you can blame the fans, unless you mean they should have scrutinised the owners more at the time?

I agree though, being a yoyo club would have been much better for all concerned.

Mr Creosote · Oct 26, 2013

Grendel said:
In 2005 I would blame the council - 100%

I would slightly disagree Grendel, I would blame the council 60% and the Higgs 40%. There are 4 members of the ACL board 2 council and 2 Higgs, they jointly have made all the catastrophic decisions over the past 2 years, and spent a fortune of tax payers money on legal and PR fees!!
They have been behind the curve against SISU on most occasions and seriously damaged the Ricoh arena brand. This message board is full of anti SISU claims that they are in it for the profit, and I agree, but all CCC and the Higgs are concerned about is their return on investment to.
As soon as the judicial review is out of the way CCC and Higgs will be snapping Preston's hand off and will sell the stadium and try and make their profit out of it.
SISU, CCC and Higgs are all as bad as each other and pretend to be concerned about CCFC, the fact is they don't!!! They are all greedy little pigs eating out of the same trough.....

Serious question about ACL, CCC (11 Viewers)

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