Second referendum : am I missing something ? (1 Viewer)

Evo1883 · Sep 21, 2018

People still failing to acknowledge that with the EU playing hard ball , they are also playing with peoples jobs within the euro zone .
The blame here is with the EU , if Britain is hit hard then so will many European countries be hit hard too .

Hold firm , don’t bow to pressure and get the deal we want or walk away ,simple

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2018

Evo1883 said:
People still failing to acknowledge that with the EU playing hard ball , they are also playing with peoples jobs within the euro zone .
The blame here is with the EU , if Britain is hit hard then so will many European countries be hit hard too .

Hold firm , don’t bow to pressure and get the deal we want or walk away ,simple

even if it fucks our economy up?

Evo1883 · Sep 21, 2018

clint van damme said:
even if it fucks our economy up?

In the same way it will fuck theirs up too , they’ve said it already .
No deal and we all get hit , so hold firm and get the deal or call their bluff

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Again you’re talking about percentages of a percentage. I never said it wouldn’t hurt but you don’t have to be a mathematician to understand that loosing a percentage of 4% is going to hurt less than a full 13% on your own. You’ve sold this floored theory that it’s all down to one Lex Luther type super villain called Junker and you still can’t get your head around that it’s 27 members all with their own motives. So for arguments sake let’s say Germany votes for a U.K. free trade agreement contrary to the principles of the single market to protect the German car industry but Denmark vetoes it to look after their interests in pig farming and pork production. There isn’t a free trade agreement. Even if Junker backs it, Luxembourg and their evil tax laws you bore on about as if it has some bearing on brexit back it and everyone else backs it it doesn’t matter. One country using their veto (as we repeatedly have to scupper EU trade negotiations with India) to protect the single market to protect their own interests is all it will take. You can post as many links as you like it doesn’t change that all 27 nations has a veto and all will put themselves before the U.K. or other EU nations for that matter. Your so fixated on the side show your missing the big picture.

You’re link about the U.K. exports outstripping EU exports is great. It dismisses the argument for leaving the EU on trade and you also assume that other countries in the EU aren’t enjoying similar growth with the rest of the world.

There is no flawed reasoning.

Germany has become one of the richest countries in the world while in the EU. Their biggest export by far is motor vehicles. 20% of their cars are exported to the UK.

If the UK had become rich exporting motor vehicles and 20% of them were exported to the EU you would be telling the world how bad it will be. But because it is Germany and not the UK it won't make much difference.

Of course it would if there is no trade deal.

If not could you share your reasoning?

Brexit Is Already Hurting The German Economy, Warns Country's Top Business Group

This is how Brexit could impact the German car industry

How a hard Brexit could hurt Germany: Reckoning with the worst that may befall | DW | 26.12.2017

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2018

Evo1883 said:
In the same way it will fuck theirs up too , they’ve said it already .
No deal and we all get hit , so hold firm and get the deal or call their bluff

to be honest if I'm living on squirrels and conkers it's going to be no consolation to me that they are as well.

Evo1883 · Sep 21, 2018

Let’s look at this another way , how will Europeans feel if their economies and jobs are put at risk because the European Union refused to budge .
I’m pretty confident that anti European sentiments will grow further throughout the zone

Evo1883 · Sep 21, 2018

clint van damme said:
to be honest if I'm living on squirrels and conkers it's going to be no consolation to me that they are as well.

If you believe that would ever happen then you should probably see a doctor about how dramatic you are becoming

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

clint van damme said:
even if it fucks our economy up?

So who is it saying that a free trade deal will be difficult?

Sick Boy · Sep 21, 2018

Evo1883 said:
Let’s look at this another way , how will Europeans feel if their economies and jobs are put at risk because the European Union refused to budge .
I’m pretty confident that anti European sentiments will grow further throughout the zone

The UK is the one leaving, they're just as likely to develop anti-UK sentiments

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2018

Evo1883 said:
If you believe that would ever happen then you should probably see a doctor about how dramatic you are becoming

I was being facetious, but our economy will take a hit in those circumstances, no consolation to me that the economies of the EU will as well.

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2018

Astute said:
So who is it saying that a free trade deal will be difficult?

they will be, they take on average 4 years to negotiate and implement. They don't happen in days, no matter what Liam Fox says.
Edit: That's based on USA figures. EU ones have taken much longer but obviously that's dealing with a block of 28 so the UK should be able to negotiate more quickly.

There will be a hit, how much of a hit your prepared to take is a matter of opinion. You may think 4-5 years is OK which your entitled to do, I don't think it's worth it.

Evo1883 · Sep 21, 2018

Theresa may needs to go by the way , she’s a problem .
A remainer at heart and will do absolutely no good for Britain .
She’s a shill

Evo1883 · Sep 21, 2018

Sick Boy said:
The UK is the one leaving, they're just as likely to develop anti-UK sentiments

Like they already haven’t lol .
They’ve had them for years anyway

Sick Boy · Sep 21, 2018

Evo1883 said:
Theresa may needs to go by the way , she’s a problem .
A remainer at heart and will do absolutely no good for Britain .
She’s a shill

She is living on borrowed time as it is, a sharp contrast to a couple of years ago. Her record in the Home Office showed how useless she was!

Evo1883 · Sep 21, 2018

Sick Boy said:
She is living on borrowed time as it is, a sharp contrast to a couple of years ago. Her record in the Home Office showed how useless she was!

We agree on something atleast

Sick Boy · Sep 21, 2018

Evo1883 said:
Like they already haven’t lol .
They’ve had them for years anyway

Don't agree with that at all.

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

clint van damme said:
they will be, they take on average 4 years to negotiate and implement. They don't happen in days, no matter what Liam Fox says.

If they started negotiating in 2016 we would be half way there by now. But they make out it is the EU way or nothing.

And why would it take 4 years when everything is already in place?

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2018

Astute said:
If they started negotiating in 2016 we would be half way there by now. But they make out it is the EU way or nothing.

And why would it take 4 years when everything is already in place?

we can't start negotiating until we've officially left.
We don't have everything in place.

Sick Boy · Sep 21, 2018

Astute said:
If they started negotiating in 2016 we would be half way there by now. But they make out it is the EU way or nothing.

And why would it take 4 years when everything is already in place?

What exactly is in place?

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

And one more thing. The EU is the biggest export areas for Germany. So it is a good thing for them being in the EU. But once the UK leaves how much of a benefit is the EU to Germany? They will have to pay billions more each year and get much less back.

Then you wonder why they still keep the pressure on us to stay in the EU.

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2018

Sick Boy said:
What exactly is in place?

our WTO schedule, was rejected, it wasn't the EU who rejected it, Australia and the US did, who are supposed to be our new best mate trading partners.

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

Sick Boy said:
What exactly is in place?

So we don't already trade freely with the EU? We don't already have billions invested in each other's countries?

Starting afresh takes longer. Once we leave without a deal it would be much harder.

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

clint van damme said:
our WTO schedule, was rejected, it wasn't the EU who rejected it, Australia and the US did, who are supposed to be our new best mate trading partners.

Was it defeated because of us or what other countries in the EU had to say?

That is like saying we voted Juncker into his position. We spoke out loud against him getting his position. But we were a part of the system that put him in place.

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2018

Astute said:
So we don't already trade freely with the EU? We don't already have billions invested in each other's countries?

Starting afresh takes longer. Once we leave without a deal it would be much harder.

but that's exactly what we'll have to do if we don't have a deal.
Hopefully we'll get one and the more favourable the better. Problem is, I can only see that if we stay in the customs union which will cause ructions.

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2018

Astute said:
Was it defeated because of us or what other countries in the EU had to say?

That is like saying we voted Juncker into his position. We spoke out loud against him getting his position. But we were a part of the system that put him in place.

no it was submitted jointly with the EU. it was rejected by, among others, Australia, USA and New Zealand.
The UK and the EU have fallen out over the terms of the revised schedule. But you can see the difficulties we're going to have with other countries not just the EU.

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

clint van damme said:
but that's exactly what we'll have to do if we don't have a deal.
Hopefully we'll get one and the more favourable the better. Problem is, I can only see that if we stay in the customs union which will cause ructions.

I still say it is the hard ball tactics from the EU that has stopped anything being agreed. But now May has said their aim must change or no deal it will move on.

The workers in the EU that rely on us must be happy with those who run the EU.......

skybluetony176 · Sep 21, 2018

Evo1883 said:
People still failing to acknowledge that with the EU playing hard ball , they are also playing with peoples jobs within the euro zone .
The blame here is with the EU , if Britain is hit hard then so will many European countries be hit hard too .

Hold firm , don’t bow to pressure and get the deal we want or walk away ,simple

You assume that they’re ONLY playing with peoples jobs. Have you ever considered that they are playing hard ball because they believe maintaining the single market will protect more jobs than they will be “playing” with? Doors swing both ways.

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

clint van damme said:
no it was submitted jointly with the EU. it was rejected by, among others, Australia, USA and New Zealand.
The UK and the EU have fallen out over the terms of the revised schedule. But you can see the difficulties we're going to have with other countries not just the EU.

Yes jointly. You said it.

We were not allowed to speak out about it. Just like those who want a trade deal with us in the EU that are not allowed to speak out.

But if there isn't a deal in sight soon that will change.

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
You assume that they’re ONLY playing with peoples jobs. Have you ever considered that they are playing hard ball because they believe maintaining the single market will protect more jobs than they will be “playing” with? Doors swing both ways.

So how could it protect more jobs by not having a trade deal with us?

If we sold more to them than they do to us I would agree. But there is no logic in it.

clint van damme · Sep 21, 2018

Astute said:
Yes jointly. You said it.

We were not allowed to speak out about it. Just like those who want a trade deal with us in the EU that are not allowed to speak out.

But if there isn't a deal in sight soon that will change.

I am not optimistic but sincerely hope you're right.

skybluetony176 · Sep 21, 2018

Astute said:
There is no flawed reasoning.

Germany has become one of the richest countries in the world while in the EU. Their biggest export by far is motor vehicles. 20% of their cars are exported to the UK.

If the UK had become rich exporting motor vehicles and 20% of them were exported to the EU you would be telling the world how bad it will be. But because it is Germany and not the UK it won't make much difference.

Of course it would if there is no trade deal.

If not could you share your reasoning?

Brexit Is Already Hurting The German Economy, Warns Country's Top Business Group

This is how Brexit could impact the German car industry

How a hard Brexit could hurt Germany: Reckoning with the worst that may befall | DW | 26.12.2017

You’re still talking about a percentage of a percentage. In fact if you’re going to talk about the German car industry in isolation you’re talking about a percentage of a percentage of a percentage. What are we down to now? Point something of a percent. Why are the other 26 nations going to vote to protect point something of a percent when they have their own problems to look after?

skybluetony176 · Sep 21, 2018

Astute said:
If they started negotiating in 2016 we would be half way there by now. But they make out it is the EU way or nothing.

And why would it take 4 years when everything is already in place?

Isn’t because it’s the EU way or nothing the major reason on many issues the argument for leave? Why are we going to exert more influence when we’re not in the club anymore?

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

clint van damme said:
I am not optimistic but sincerely hope you're right.

I hope I am right.

That is why from the start we might have a few hard years. And that is only a might.

It would be good to keep a close relationship with the EU. But if they refuse this offer we won't be the only ones to suffer. So it isn't a one way thing like some make out.

Astute · Sep 21, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
You’re still talking about a percentage of a percentage. In fact if you’re going to talk about the German car industry in isolation you’re talking about a percentage of a percentage of a percentage. What are we down to now? Point something of a percent. Why are the other 26 nations going to vote to protect point something of a percent when they have their own problems to look after?

Why don't you check out the numbers.

And when you are surprised at how big the number is I will look forward to your next excuse.

skybluetony176 · Sep 21, 2018

Astute said:
So how could it protect more jobs by not having a trade deal with us?

If we sold more to them than they do to us I would agree. But there is no logic in it.

Because the U.K. only makes up 4% of EU trade. They’re supposed to ignore the 96% to favour the 4%? Is that what you’re saying? That’s what it sounds like.

Second referendum : am I missing something ? (1 Viewer)

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