fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
We need another EU thread obviously....
SBT vote on the Boris Johnson withdrawal agreement..... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter fernandopartridge
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skyblueinBaku
Well-Known Member
I haven't seen any details of his deal yet.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Plenty of information here: Press corner
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Do you remember the deal that May initially wanted to put to Parliament before the DUP kicked off and said that Northern Ireland couldn’t be different to the rest of the U.K.?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Its the same as May's deal but the backstop has been replaced with a border in the Irish Sea.
Apologies for linking to the Guardian but they've gone through the text to pick out the differences:
How much of Johnson's 'great new deal' is actually new?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Mad isn't it. Johnson is being lauded for going back to the deal first offered by the EU. One that he called "the worst of all worlds" and JRM called "cretinous". Even May said it was "a deal that no British prime minister could accept".
skyblueinBaku
Well-Known Member
I've never understood the mantra of "Taking control of our money" - we already control that. I would like a deal that doesn't include subservience to the ECJ, gets back our control of our fishing waters and stops the flow of EU directives to us. Does this deal include those?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Hasn’t Boris left our waters open to be traded off during trade negotiations?
It’s another one of those half assed arguments for leave anyway and for several reasons. The main ones being that the EU fishing quota system is based on well calculated numbers aimed at protecting fishing stocks and that’s unlikely to change to any great amount that’s going to equal a windfall for the fishing industry. The true problem for the U.K. fishing fleet is how the quota is dished out and that’s done by our own sovereign government who of their own free will have consistently for decades given the lion’s share to foreign owned and crewed trawlers that are conveniently registered in the U.K.. Yes we could take back control of our own waters but we may also lose access to waters that British fishermen rely on, for reference look up the so called scallop wars that took place last year IIRC. The short version is that British fishermen still had scallop quotas left and were fishing them where they were available ie French waters and French fishermen weren’t happy about it. Without that access though the British fishermen would have been sat at home with no income.
Which is probably why Boris has left it on the table. I wouldn’t be surprised if little to nothing changes with regards to access to fishing waters.
oakey
Well-Known Member
A historic mistake.
We will be poorer, weaker, more isolated and remain bitter and divided for a generation.
I don't respect the referendum result. Democracy is a process not a moment in time.
It is obvious to a majority of people in this country that we are taking a big and risky step. Many accept it. I do not.
I have no respect for politicians who will vote this through knowing it is not in the interests of the country or their constituents just because they want to 'get Brexit done'' or 'respect the will of the people'. Those are mindless, populist slogans. The objective reality is more important than bowing to pressure; being right is more important than being popular.
We will be poorer, weaker, more isolated and remain bitter and divided for a generation.
I don't respect the referendum result. Democracy is a process not a moment in time.
It is obvious to a majority of people in this country that we are taking a big and risky step. Many accept it. I do not.
I have no respect for politicians who will vote this through knowing it is not in the interests of the country or their constituents just because they want to 'get Brexit done'' or 'respect the will of the people'. Those are mindless, populist slogans. The objective reality is more important than bowing to pressure; being right is more important than being popular.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
why are people so concerned about fishing which will only every be a small percentage of our GDP but are quite happy to see manufacturing, and particularly just in time manufacturing supply chains trashed causing a lot of harm to a far bigger sector?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Think so, yes.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Because they understand what it is. Unlike say biomedical engineering or data science.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
It’s the notion that the EU is full of corruption, so we need to bring the corruption in house so the corrupt British people can have it instead.
I think ‘taking back control of our money’ is more relating to the monies paid to the EU - £13bn paid year (gross), £9bn (net) in 2018. Second or third largest net contributor. Think it went up 20% this year from memory.
When you’re out of the monetary union which will have a variety of impacts on the countries within the euro, it’s not an insignificant sum.
You’re correct though Ian, from memory their have been comments in the past about corruption and the difficulty in signing off accounts EU accounts due to ‘errors’ (think things have improved in recent years though)
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
“A disaster” - Jacob Rees Mogg
“Something so bad no Conservative PM would ever vote for it” - Boris Johnson
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
That’s like saying my car is my biggest expense so I should get rid, ignoring how without it my earning options are severely limited.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
You’ve got a Zoe haven’t you?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Pointless having fishing waters when you can't sell your goods tariff free into the biggest market for them.
Sick Boy
Well-Known Member
yeah, I think most people have no idea how much of the fish caught in UK waters goes to other EU countries as it’s not to the taste of the average Brit.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
We’ll probably end up with something similar to Norway having traded of access to our waters. We’ll be able to sell whole fish just not processed fish. But then it’s not like processing fish is the largest part of our fishing industry. No, wait. It is.
I was responding (factually) to what people mean by the ‘taking back control of our money comment’.
We obviously get benefits, however, if you’re asking, do I think we should have been second/third largest net contributor....probably not. We’ve always been on the periphery of the union.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
We've not always been on the periphery or certainly not by design. We've had as much representation as anybody else but we've had cunts like Farage and Co not really doing it for years. We somehow got a number of veto rights.
28 members and our voting weight is 13%, hardly peripheral
I meant as in we’re not in the Euro, not in schengen and don’t want closer union. Basically we’ve been the black sheep for a long while
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Ireland has vetoed schengen also and Denmark also has the same veto as us on the Euro. We’re not the lone voice on these and other issues some would like to pretend.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Aye, 19 of 28
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Wrong thread
Astute
Well-Known Member
I don't have a Scooby doo.
Is it accept the Boris agreement or what? We would have to know what the alternative is. If it is Boris agreement or no deal then accept. If it is Boris agreement or just about everything else then it is just about everything else.
This has been the problem for the last few years. In, out or shake it all about. I have been in favour of shake it all about. I see problems with remaining. I see problems with leaving. The decision shouldn't have been left to the public. I would class myself as being better educated on the subject than the majority of the British public. Just like most on here would.
It is like saying that my dog is better than your dog. My dog is perfect for me. But would he be what you want?
Is it accept the Boris agreement or what? We would have to know what the alternative is. If it is Boris agreement or no deal then accept. If it is Boris agreement or just about everything else then it is just about everything else.
This has been the problem for the last few years. In, out or shake it all about. I have been in favour of shake it all about. I see problems with remaining. I see problems with leaving. The decision shouldn't have been left to the public. I would class myself as being better educated on the subject than the majority of the British public. Just like most on here would.
It is like saying that my dog is better than your dog. My dog is perfect for me. But would he be what you want?
Astute
Well-Known Member
It was never an opinion poll. But it was a result that wasn't expected.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But those are choices we made, not been forced upon us. Plus we have a number of vetos which give/gave us a great deal of weight in decision making,
Sick Boy
Well-Known Member
Not really as there are other countries that have their own currency and aren’t in Schengen.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
The massively stupid thing we did was invoke Article 50 straight away. I have no idea why all politicians hurtled towards this as a good idea! Would have been far better if we'd got some kind of coherent strategy before starting negotiations, that took on board a general consensus, and *then* seen what deal, if any, was out there for us.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
You deserve the like just for this
It's such a complicated decision, it's just not possible to boil down to a simple yes/no. It's why we elect politicians, to debate the things endlessly and come up with the 'right' decision.Well, in theory, at least(!)
