Saracens points deduction (3 Viewers)

Nick · Jan 23, 2020

It all seems a bit strange, the bit where they said they had a company independently valued and paid based on that but the authorities are saying it was wrong.

I was expecting it to be shit loads but it doesn't seem as bad as being made out.

The interesting bit is that they are saying they are happy to have a full audit for the 3 years if every other club does... What's wrong with that?

The report done also says it was not intentional and relegation was disproportionate.

Something doesn't really add up with it. I think the other clubs have all wanted rid of them.

Nick · Jan 23, 2020

shepardo01 said:
That is very interesting!!
How much were Wasps over the cap when they were fined recently??

Wasn't it about 50k?

I can't really see why Wasps fans are getting all high and mighty, I think purposely cooking the books is more of a serious offence surely?

tisza · Jan 23, 2020

Also it seems to be 4 or 5 players.
I was expecting wholesale cheating across the board, brown envelopes etc. All this seems to be pretty open.
The way football clubs run off to court over transfer bans etc. I'm surprised Saracens haven't done the same - maybe it's too expensive.
Tbh the fine seems excessive in relation to what excess was.

Kneeza · Jan 23, 2020

Nick said:
Wasn't it about 50k?

I can't really see why Wasps fans are getting all high and mighty, I think purposely cooking the books is more of a serious offence surely?

If you have time to read the 100+ page report, have a look at some of the figures.
https://media-cdn.incrowdsports.com/fa097ce0-fc01-4b01-bbb0-e147ffa67de6.pdf
On page 76 it gives a table of penalties to be applied for breaches in one season. The deduction of 35 points is only levied for breaches over £650000 in that Salary Year.
Sarries were deducted 35 points for their breach in 2018/19...

Nick · Jan 23, 2020

Kneeza said:
If you have time to read the 100+ page report, have a look at some of the figures.
https://media-cdn.incrowdsports.com/fa097ce0-fc01-4b01-bbb0-e147ffa67de6.pdf
On page 76 it gives a table of penalties to be applied for breaches in one season. The deduction of 35 points is only levied for breaches over £650000 in that Salary Year.
Sarries were deducted 35 points for their breach in 2018/19...

So as somebody who follows rugby more than me which is obvious, in your opinion is it a fair punishment do you think?

shepardo01 · Jan 23, 2020

Nick said:
It all seems a bit strange, the bit where they said they had a company independently valued and paid based on that but the authorities are saying it was wrong.

I was expecting it to be shit loads but it doesn't seem as bad as being made out.

The interesting bit is that they are saying they are happy to have a full audit for the 3 years if every other club does... What's wrong with that?

The report done also says it was not intentional and relegation was disproportionate.

Something doesn't really add up with it. I think the other clubs have all wanted rid of them.

Reading the Wasps forum (after they have lost!) there are a few threads on there about Saracens or "Salarycens" as those funny lot call them!
On all of them, it mentions that clubs, by the sounds of it, have gone after them.
Have Saracens deliberately pushed this report out to show that it is not as bad as people are shouting about, to hold their hands up and say "see -ya" to the Premiership to go to play in a different top level league, NOT the second tier Championship??
Pro 14 (don't know what that is!) has been mentioned somewhere.
Really hope, for our sake and so it impacts Wasps, that this devalues the Premiership.
It now is an absolute mockery of a competition this season.

Liquid Gold · Jan 23, 2020

shepardo01 said:
Reading the Wasps forum (after they have lost!) there are a few threads on there about Saracens or "Salarycens" as those funny lot call them!
On all of them, it mentions that clubs, by the sounds of it, have gone after them.
Have Saracens deliberately pushed this report out to show that it is not as bad as people are shouting about, to hold their hands up and say "see -ya" to the Premiership to go to play in a different top level league, NOT the second tier Championship??
Pro 14 (don't know what that is!) has been mentioned somewhere.
Really hope, for our sake and so it impacts Wasps, that this devalues the Premiership.
It now is an absolute mockery of a competition this season.

If they jumped ship would they have to pay back their CVC cash?

chiefdave · Jan 23, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
If they jumped ship would they have to pay back their CVC cash?

I think they set it up so relegated clubs retain their share of ownership in the Premiership and therefore the CVC money while the promoted team gets screwed as they aren’t in the CVC club.

Presume the same would apply if they left the league system completely. Of course if they went to Pro14 that’s CVC as well.

The punishment seems way OTT to me and I can’t imagine they’d so passively accept
It if they didn’t have a trick in their sleeve.

If they really have fallen out with other clubs the temptation to now screw them over will be huge.

Liquid Gold · Jan 23, 2020

chiefdave said:
I think they set it up so relegated clubs retain their share of ownership in the Premiership and therefore the CVC money while the promoted team gets screwed as they aren’t in the CVC club.

Presume the same would apply if they left the league system completely. Of course if they went to Pro14 that’s CVC as well.

The punishment seems way OTT to me and I can’t imagine they’d so passively accept
It if they didn’t have a trick in their sleeve.

If they really have fallen out with other clubs the temptation to now screw them over will be huge.

The relegated team gets money as they're 'stakeholders' in the league though. Surely if they went elsewhere they couldn't retain that stake.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 23, 2020

Kneeza said:
Interesting. PRL allegedly 'preparing to release the Dyson Report'...
BREAKING: Premiership Rugby ready to release 'Dyson Report' - LWOR

Was always going to be difficult sweeping that under the carpet.....

Kneeza · Jan 23, 2020

Nick said:
So as somebody who follows rugby more than me which is obvious, in your opinion is it a fair punishment do you think?

Fairness is a state of mind.
They appear to have 'done the crime' so...
However, I don't think we're close to knowing the whole story yet, but at least it's not been swept under the carpet like it was a few years ago.
Given the undoubted sins of other Prem clubs, perhaps it's a little OTT for Sarries to take all the heat.
I have no problem with them personally, but as I say, I don't know the full story as yet.
As for the Pro 14 story; can't see it myself. I'd think it more likely that clubs like Cov and Penzance would consider that kind of jump if unfairly excluded from the Prem (indeed Sharp has already mooted it), but given the travelling involved (huge) and the relative lack of prestige compared to the domestic comp, I'd doubt any English club will actually take that route.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Jan 23, 2020

For those not in the know, as asked previously, the Pro14 is the league formed of Ospreys, Blues, Scarlets and Dragons from Wales, Connacht, Ulster, Leinster and Munster from Ireland, Edinburgh and Glasgow, Zebre and Benetton from Italy, and Cheetahs (not Saracens!!) and Southern Kings from South Africa!
As Kneeza says, teams like Cov, Nottingham and Cornish Pirates baulk at having to go to Jersey for a league game. They simply couldn't sustain the costs involved in going to all these places.
Not sure how Sarries could become part of the Pro14. Just as likely to join the "Top 14" French league (where there is no salary cap), if they'd have them!

OffenhamSkyBlue · Jan 23, 2020

Nick said:
So as somebody who follows rugby more than me which is obvious, in your opinion is it a fair punishment do you think?

I'm surprised at the level of punishment for the level of offence. Also if the penalty goes against that recommended by the inquiry panel, i would say that they SHOULD take it to the Court for Arbitration in Sport - i think they'd have a case to get even the -35 overturned. Odd! Maybe they have more skeletons they don't want people finding. But they'll notice the loss of income when they don't get the away followings from the likes of Tigers, Saints, Gloucester, Baaaaath and Brizzle turning up to Allianz Park (not to mention the European giants).

fernandopartridge · Jan 23, 2020

Listening to Radio 5 this morning and they suggested that a lot of Saracens players might stay next season but concentrate on internationals.

pipkin73 · Jan 23, 2020

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
For those not in the know, as asked previously, the Pro14 is the league formed of Ospreys, Blues, Scarlets and Dragons from Wales, Connacht, Ulster, Leinster and Munster from Ireland, Edinburgh and Glasgow, Zebre and Benetton from Italy, and Cheetahs (not Saracens!!) and Southern Kings from South Africa!
As Kneeza says, teams like Cov, Nottingham and Cornish Pirates baulk at having to go to Jersey for a league game. They simply couldn't sustain the costs involved in going to all these places.
Not sure how Sarries could become part of the Pro14. Just as likely to join the "Top 14" French league (where there is no salary cap), if they'd have them!

The French league does have a cap from what i've read.
Saracens players have a problem, wait with Saracens and go down (still play for England), or go to the PRO14 (again another salary cap). Go French league (another salary cap). NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY FOR ENGLAND.
This was Saracens problem, all team's have spent their "CAP" and have agreements made for most of their budget for next season with player retention and new players agreed.
Suddenly half the England team are available (if Saracens) go that way, but it they sign them they will go over budget (England national team does pay most of their wages so they can select them when they want too (just like in cricket)) .

One of the problems of having so few professional full time teams. If they ringfence the Premiership it will only get worse.

Kneeza · Jan 24, 2020

Yes, the French Top 14 has a cap. 11.3m Euros the last time I looked. Don't think it's increased since.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Jan 24, 2020

Kneeza said:
Yes, the French Top 14 has a cap. 11.3m Euros the last time I looked. Don't think it's increased since.

Apologies - contrary to what i heard someone say on the radio. Not my intention to mislead.

Kneeza · Jan 24, 2020

No worries. It's a common misconception.
However, it's a pretty decent level of cap compared to the Prem, and the income streams for the Top 14 are currently much higher, thus supporting it.

jordan210 · Jan 24, 2020

apparently BT sport are not happy with the relegation and ultimately a waste of this season the new TV rights are due to be negotiated in the next few months.

tisza · Jan 25, 2020

If i was a supporter of another club I'd feel very hard done by with Saracens actions. Not convinced all these things are as dodgy as the report makes out -more like sharp practice against the spirit of the rules
But find it hard to believe none of the other clubs haven't been looking for loopholes - Sale owner explained some examples of how easy it could be done.
Not as if football clubs haven't tried a range of things over the years to circumvent financial rules- image rights, stadium sales etc.

Kneeza · Jan 26, 2020

Looks like Sarries have decided to treat the rest of the season with contempt and as a rest period for some of their investments, er, superstars.
A weakened side were stuffed 41-14 at Harlequin FC this afternoon.
That, following London Irish (previously in a virtual freefall) winning at high-flying Northampton just underlines exactly what a ring-fenced top league could turn into.
FFS

tisza · Jan 26, 2020

Kneeza said:
Looks like Sarries have decided to treat the rest of the season with contempt and as a rest period for some of their investments, er, superstars.
A weakened side were stuffed 41-14 at Harlequin FC this afternoon.
That, following London Irish (previously in a virtual freefall) winning at high-flying Northampton just underlines exactly what a ring-fenced top league could turn into.
FFS

Can't say I blame them. Blood players for next season, save top players for European games.
Didn't rugby league scrap promotion and relegation for a while - franchises which ended up getting scrapped?

Kneeza · Jan 26, 2020

tisza said:
Can't say I blame them. Blood players for next season, save top players for European games.
Didn't rugby league scrap promotion and relegation for a while - franchises which ended up getting scrapped?

Yes, they tried it. It failed miserably and it could have killed Superleague. Fortunately they changed their minds after seeing the folly of their ways.
I wonder if the PRL brass are bright enough to learn from the RFLs mistake?

chiefdave · Jan 26, 2020

Kneeza said:
Looks like Sarries have decided to treat the rest of the season with contempt and as a rest period for some of their investments, er, superstars.
A weakened side were stuffed 41-14 at Harlequin FC this afternoon.

This was always going to be the problem with announcing a punishment like that mid season. Now they've completely screwed the season. What happens if a team wins the league by 1 point and that team played Saracens post punishment when they were fielding a weakened team and the team who finishes second lost to a full strength team earlier in the season. Makes the whole competition farcical.

Kneeza said:
I wonder if the PRL brass are bright enough to learn from the RFLs mistake?

Doubt it. Its a relatively new league which has the huge advantage of being able to set itself up properly and as a stable league for all teams yet so far they have failed to do that.

Wyken Sky Blue · Jan 27, 2020

tisza said:
Can't say I blame them. Blood players for next season, save top players for European games.
Didn't rugby league scrap promotion and relegation for a while - franchises which ended up getting scrapped?

The one relegation and one promotion pretty much means the top division will always be the same apart from one yo-yo club. Newcastle in division 1 this time around and it will be Saracens next year.

If only they made it more competitive an introduced two teams. Means teams like Cov could come up and the wankers from London can go down.

Sent from my I3113 using Tapatalk

Kneeza · Jan 28, 2020

And now Saracens are on minus 77 points!

wingy · Feb 18, 2020

And losing friends and influence by the look of it.

Saracens: Barnet Council considered ending £22.9m stadium redevelopment loan

chiefdave · Feb 18, 2020

wingy said:
And losing friends and influence by the look of it.

Saracens: Barnet Council considered ending £22.9m stadium redevelopment loan

Interesting comments from their council about how important it is to not put the council in conflict with the club as it may risk the financial and community benefit of having the club in the area.

wingy · Feb 18, 2020

chiefdave said:
Interesting comments from their council about how important it is to not put the council in conflict with the club as it may risk the financial and community benefit of having the club in the area.

Not entirely clear if it's £22M for one stand or a broader redevelopment?

Saracens points deduction (3 Viewers)

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