Saracens points deduction (1 Viewer)

oldskyblue58 · Nov 5, 2019

Saracens have been found to have breached the financial rules for the last 3 seasons and have been docked 35 points and fined £5m by Premiership Rugby. They can and no doubt will appeal the decision. But surely their structure is set already for this season too?

Saracens hit with 35-point deduction and £5m fine

Wonder which other teams might be at risk?

Kind of puts in to perspective the weak attempts by the EFL on financial regulation

OffenhamSkyBlue · Nov 5, 2019

Shame it's not Wasps, but this is massive! Sarries now on -26 points!

fernandopartridge · Nov 5, 2019

Fuck's sake, that's another team that Wasps may now finish above.

Well done to PR for punishing it like you say, football could learn a bit from it.

oldskyblue58 · Nov 5, 2019

as i understand it at least some of the salary cap breach related to properties bought jointly with players by the Saracens owner. It was investigated by Daily Mail. Saracens maintained that it did not form part of a players reward for playing

Premiership clubs and former players join the calls for Saracens salary-cap inquiry | Daily Mail Online

the salary cap rules seem to catch these arrangements (Highlighted relevant bits)
Premiership Rugby Salary Cap
Amounts which are paid or payable (or in the case of a benefit in kind, provided or to be provided) directly or indirectly, onshore or offshore, by or on behalf of a Club or any Connected Party or Third Party of the Club, to or in respect of a Player or any Connected Party of the Player…..
Amounts that are Included

Salary, wage, fee, remuneration etc.
Bonus (match, win, year-end etc.)
National insurance
Loan (not paid back in full before end of SCY loan was made).
Child support / maintenance /school fees
Accommodation or holiday cost
Pension (incl. annuities)
Image Rights payments
Payment in connection with promotional, media or endorsement work
Payment for off-field activities for or on behalf of club
Signing on fee, transfer payment, relocation allowance or payment linked to transfer
Accommodation, holidays, cars, match tickets (other than 4 per match), clothing (other than training kit, official club blazers and other club wear), travel, membership fees, food and drink (other than at matches and training)
Payment in kind a player would not have received were not for his involvement with a Club
Redundancy/Compromise etc.
Agent Fees plus VAT & NI
Any 3rd Party & Connected Party (e.g. sponsor) payment unless demonstrated separate

Amounts that are Excluded

International match fees, bonuses, etc.
Legitimate and reasonable expenses
Player’s personal private medical insurance including Rugby Care scheme
Benefit Year (testimonial)
Education fees (e.g. university tuition fees, joinery course fees etc.) for the player
A season long Loan Player x 3 players
A player who is Injured for the entire season

HOW IS IT MANAGED?

On-going monitoring and investigations
Throughout the year every Premiership Rugby Club is required to submit to the Salary Cap Manager within 28 days of signing full copies of all Contracts and arrangements for playing (employment) and non-playing (e.g. image rights) services. All documents relating to Loans and copies of any Contracts/written documents evidencing payments to Player Agents are provided. These submissions are reviewed on an on-going basis and the Salary Cap Manager has the ability to investigate any arrangement between a Player and a Club. Player interviews are carried out on a regular basis to support the management of the Salary Cap. There is also a formal whistle blowing policy.

Annual Audit
In July each pre-season every Premiership Rugby Club will provide the Salary Cap Manager for the new Season. This information is presented to the Board of Premiership Rugby. In September each season every Premiership Rugby Club provides the Salary Cap Manager with Certification setting out their spend during the previous Salary Cap Year. Both of these documents are approved by a Club’s Board and signed off by the Chairman, Chief Executive and Finance Director. The independent auditors (PWC) (during October and November) audit each Club in accordance with the Salary Cap Regulations. The audit results are presented to the Board of Premiership Rugby and shared with each Club.

If Saracens do not see it as part of a players remuneration package then i assume they do not class it as a benefit in kind. Try explaining that one to HMRC who i am pretty certain would see it differently, especially now the rugby regulators have passed their judgement that it does form part of the players earnings. If they have declared it as a benefit in kind then it kind of detracts against their argument against this penalty. I suspect there are more problems heading Saracens way

Grendel · Nov 5, 2019

Are wasps accounts due? Fans on the forum seem to be fearing the worst

oldskyblue58 · Nov 5, 2019

yes they are. Terms of bond says within 4 mths after year end. There is a link to them on wasps site but it doesnt work

fernandopartridge · Nov 5, 2019

Wonder if any Wasps players were in receipt of bonds?

Terry Gibson's perm · Nov 5, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
Wonder if any Wasps players were in receipt of bonds?

I bet they hope not the way they are heading

oldskyblue58 · Nov 5, 2019

bond price has been heading up the last couple of days ...... remains to be seen if that is maintained

Covstu · Nov 6, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
Fuck's sake, that's another team that Wasps may now finish above.

Well done to PR for punishing it like you say, football could learn a bit from it.

No this was pisstaking at a different level, setting up player businesses to pay into! Should have been relegated in my view but this could probably ‘end’ them anyway

chiefdave · Nov 6, 2019

I can see a problem looming down the line if Saracens decide to pursue it. It will be like Bosman and a restraint of trade argument made. Hard to see how the RFU can argue that a system specifically designed to limit wages isn't preventing players from maximising their income.

Will take years, cost a fortune in legal fees and end up with the clubs who don't have Saracens money struggling to keep up with them. Essentially what has happened in football since PL money came in.

Covstu · Nov 6, 2019

chiefdave said:
I can see a problem looming down the line if Saracens decide to pursue it. It will be like Bosman and a restraint of trade argument made. Hard to see how the RFU can argue that a system specifically designed to limit wages isn't preventing players from maximising their income.

Will take years, cost a fortune in legal fees and end up with the clubs who don't have Saracens money struggling to keep up with them. Essentially what has happened in football since PL money came in.

Can’t they just go to another country where these limitations aren’t in place?

oldskyblue58 · Nov 7, 2019

For anyone interested this BBC podcast raises a lot of very good points

BBC Radio 5 live - Rugby Union Weekly at the World Cup, What’s going on at Saracens?

one thing mentioned is the effect on players careers after hanging up their boots. Earning potential after retirement of the Saracens players because of the success bought by cheating the system is predicted to be far higher than a player from a team with no or little success. So the effects are not just historic

Terry Gibson's perm · Nov 7, 2019

Covstu said:
Can’t they just go to another country where these limitations aren’t in place?

A rugby team move from its local area has that ever happened before with any success?

Covstu · Nov 7, 2019

Terry Gibson's perm said:
A rugby team move from its local area has that ever happened before with any success?

I was talking players but yes I guess that could also apply!

Frank Sidebottom · Jan 16, 2020

Saracens face Premiership relegation if found to have breached salary cap again

Looks like they could be proper fucked. Shame as Wasps are having such a terrible season.

chiefdave · Jan 16, 2020

Timperley said:
Saracens face Premiership relegation if found to have breached salary cap again

Looks like they could be proper fucked. Shame as Wasps are having such a terrible season.

Aren't they asking for the impossible? The players will be under contract and it says any payment to terminate the contract will count towards the cap. How are they legally supposed to get rid of contracted players without paying them?

pipkin73 · Jan 17, 2020

chiefdave said:
Aren't they asking for the impossible? The players will be under contract and it says any payment to terminate the contract will count towards the cap.
How are they legally supposed to get rid of contracted players without paying them?

The way that sounds, the only option they have is to sack all the players off and get the fans to play. The RFU have been hard on them to set an example but this is now getting silly.
They need help to get out of this not more threats.
On the plus side, if they have no players next season (apart from fans playing etc) then it could be the one season were a team in the Championship have a proper chance of going up. Come on CRFC "(let's be having you)" as someone pissed up once said.

Flying Fokker · Jan 17, 2020

Would they groundshare with wasps if they do? City could groundshare with Cov united at the Butts. Until the new stadium is booked.

jordan210 · Jan 17, 2020

"
The bosses of the top-flight clubs met at a Premiership Rugby board meeting in London on Tuesday.
It was decided that unless Saracens could prove their compliance, they would face the unprecedented step of dropping into the second tier."

So basically other team bosses want them relegated. Will be interesting to see if this makes the knifes come out and teams start doing dirty work on each other.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Jan 17, 2020

Flying Fokker said:
Would they groundshare with wasps if they do? City could groundshare with Cov united at the Butts. Until the new stadium is booked.

I know you're probably being tongue in cheek, but we can't share the BPA as the plastic pitch isn't EFL compliant.

chiefdave said:
Aren't they asking for the impossible? The players will be under contract and it says any payment to terminate the contract will count towards the cap. How are they legally supposed to get rid of contracted players without paying them?

Their salary would be picked up by any club that is buying them, wouldn't it? I think I heard on the radio this morning that the other Prem clubs are being hard-nosed and saying "we don't want them"!
Shame that W*sps will probably survive as a result of this (unless they say there is a competitive relegation AND a punishment relegation - that way Cov would have a chance of promotion as well as Newcastle!!

OffenhamSkyBlue · Jan 17, 2020

jordan210 said:
"
The bosses of the top-flight clubs met at a Premiership Rugby board meeting in London on Tuesday.
It was decided that unless Saracens could prove their compliance, they would face the unprecedented step of dropping into the second tier."

So basically other team bosses want them relegated. Will be interesting to see if this makes the knifes come out and teams start doing dirty work on each other.

Teams like Exeter and Worcester have been really critical this season when they have been beaten by a Saracens team that is essentially identical to those of the past three seasons that they got punished for (plus the likes of Elliott Daly, another high-earner).
It clearly is not fair

chiefdave · Jan 17, 2020

jordan210 said:
"
The bosses of the top-flight clubs met at a Premiership Rugby board meeting in London on Tuesday.
It was decided that unless Saracens could prove their compliance, they would face the unprecedented step of dropping into the second tier."

So basically other team bosses want them relegated. Will be interesting to see if this makes the knifes come out and teams start doing dirty work on each other.

Sure it’s a coincidence that this happens when a couple of the supposedly bigger name teams are in a relegation battle.

chiefdave · Jan 17, 2020

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
I know you're probably being tongue in cheek, but we can't share the BPA as the plastic pitch isn't EFL compliant.

Their salary would be picked up by any club that is buying them, wouldn't it? I think I heard on the radio this morning that the other Prem clubs are being hard-nosed and saying "we don't want them"!

Our head office (not in Cov) is full of rugby nuts. They say the other clubs can’t / won’t take the players. That means they either stay where they are or move abroad.

Also said if they move abroad could weaken the national side as they tend to not select players who aren’t playing here - no idea why.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Jan 17, 2020

chiefdave said:
Sure it’s a coincidence that this happens when a couple of the supposedly bigger name teams are in a relegation battle.

And Worcester, thinking "Ey up lads, we've got a shout of staying up, here!"

tisza · Jan 17, 2020

Let's be honest if they haven't sorted their salary cap issues then they deserve to be relegated.
Outcome will probably be a load of their England players end up in France on much bigger wages and unavailable for England selection.
Also someone posted on a Wasps thread that they want to ring fence the top division - no promotion / relegation etc. so could Saracens get frozen out completely?
On the plus side it could mean there's an empty purpose-built stadium available near London for another rugby team

OffenhamSkyBlue · Jan 17, 2020

chiefdave said:
Our head office (not in Cov) is full of rugby nuts. They say the other clubs can’t / won’t take the players. That means they either stay where they are or move abroad.

Also said if they move abroad could weaken the national side as they tend to not select players who aren’t playing here - no idea why.

That is a bizarre ethos, IMHO. Josh Adams (Wales' first choice left wing) had to leave Worcester at the end of last season to move back to Cardiff Blues, as he was told he wouldn't be picked if he stayed in England. Blues are about to get dumped out of the junior European competition at the group stage, and are clearly in an uncompetitive league. Why would Wales (or any nation) not want their best players to get challenged in the best leagues?
Barking! (see Leigh Halfpenny)

tisza · Jan 17, 2020

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
That is a bizarre ethos, IMHO. Josh Adams (Wales' first choice left wing) had to leave Worcester at the end of last season to move back to Cardiff Blues, as he was told he wouldn't be picked if he stayed in England. Blues are about to get dumped out of the junior European competition at the group stage, and are clearly in an uncompetitive league. Why would Wales (or any nation) not want their best players to get challenged in the best leagues?
Barking! (see Leigh Halfpenny)

Like the Irish isn't it all about controlling what & how many club matches the international players are involved in? Also the "foreign" clubs can refuse to release players for international training and some matches.

skybluesam66 · Jan 17, 2020

be interesting to see Saracens at the BPA next season

tisza · Jan 19, 2020

What I don't get is why they signed Daly on a big contract if they knew they were still in salary cap trouble

CanadianCCFC · Jan 19, 2020

tisza said:
What I don't get is why they signed Daly on a big contract if they knew they were still in salary cap trouble

It was a big misunderstanding. They thought they were going to get away with it

Kneeza · Jan 22, 2020

Interesting. PRL allegedly 'preparing to release the Dyson Report'...
BREAKING: Premiership Rugby ready to release 'Dyson Report' - LWOR

chiefdave · Jan 22, 2020

Kneeza said:
Interesting. PRL allegedly 'preparing to release the Dyson Report'...
BREAKING: Premiership Rugby ready to release 'Dyson Report' - LWOR

Sky have got hold of it and have to say I find it pretty shocking. In the grand scheme of things at least in the world of sports its nothing, certainly nowhere near bad enough to justify the punishment they've been given.

Interestingly it seems its Saracens themselves pushing for the report to be released, while the league have been claiming otherwise.

The most striking thing is the disciplinary panel accepted the breaches of the regulations weren't deliberate and advised against relegation as a punishment saying it would be disproportionate.

The overspend in 2016-17 was only £1.1m and that was the highest! In 2017-18 it was £98K and in 2018-19 it was £906K. And when you look at the details of the overpayments the ground gets even more shaky. One player was supposedly paid salary in kind when two directors of the club invested 20% equity in a property. Only problem with that theory is he wasn't playing for Saracens after the purchase so how did they benefit from a salary paid in kind?

Another example is where three directors buying shares in a players image rights company. The company was valued by PwC and they invested based on that but the league has decided the shares were only worth half the PwC valuation.

It also brings up an interesting point regarding Saracens supposed refusal to open up 3 years of their books to an audit, that line seems to be getting thrown around a lot on social media as proof of their guilt. However it seems they said they were happy to have their books audited if every other club was audited.

Something seems very off with this whole thing to me.

shepardo01 · Jan 22, 2020

chiefdave said:
Sky have got hold of it and have to say I find it pretty shocking. In the grand scheme of things at least in the world of sports its nothing, certainly nowhere near bad enough to justify the punishment they've been given.

Interestingly it seems its Saracens themselves pushing for the report to be released, while the league have been claiming otherwise.

The most striking thing is the disciplinary panel accepted the breaches of the regulations weren't deliberate and advised against relegation as a punishment saying it would be disproportionate.

The overspend in 2016-17 was only £1.1m and that was the highest! In 2017-18 it was £98K and in 2018-19 it was £906K. And when you look at the details of the overpayments the ground gets even more shaky. One player was supposedly paid salary in kind when two directors of the club invested 20% equity in a property. Only problem with that theory is he wasn't playing for Saracens after the purchase so how did they benefit from a salary paid in kind?

Another example is where three directors buying shares in a players image rights company. The company was valued by PwC and they invested based on that but the league has decided the shares were only worth half the PwC valuation.

It also brings up an interesting point regarding Saracens supposed refusal to open up 3 years of their books to an audit, that line seems to be getting thrown around a lot on social media as proof of their guilt. However it seems they said they were happy to have their books audited if every other club was audited.

Something seems very off with this whole thing to me.

That is very interesting!!
How much were Wasps over the cap when they were fined recently??

tisza · Jan 23, 2020

chiefdave said:
The overspend in 2016-17 was only £1.1m and that was the highest! In 2017-18 it was £98K and in 2018-19 it was £906K.

So the top player is Farrell on a reported 750k so basically he's the difference and he's away with England for a chunk of the season.

Saracens points deduction (1 Viewer)

CCFC Finance Director

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

CCFC Finance Director

Well-Known Member

CCFC Finance Director

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

CCFC Finance Director

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

CCFC Finance Director

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency