Right, let's get all this out the way (1 Viewer)

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 26, 2013

Firstly, what's one of the biggest gripes between SISU and ACL? That they don't talk to each other and find a solution, but ibstead revert to snidely insulting one another through press statements.

We, as fans, what are we doing? Not talking to one another as fellow fans, trying to find constructively common ground where we can all protest whether we go to Sixfields or not.

Instead, we're trying to show who's most responsible for killing the club, which set of fans.

The answer to that is... all of us are responsible, if we decide to go for easy targets.

Want your Hitler analogies? Forget appeasement (although it's worth remembering that was the majority view at the time, and appeasement meant waiting at home passively instead of going out to engage the enemy) it all smacks a bit of using energies to persecute certain sections, holding the people responsible... instead of standing up to paymasters, people in power, leaders.

Ashdown1 · Aug 26, 2013

What's this another rallying call for everyone to take their cash to Sixfields and bring out their banners. Well that's worked before hasn't it as they were grabbed from people by SISU's rent a mob ! In the meantime SISU pocket another £60,000 on the day. Nope that won't work ta !

shmmeee · Aug 26, 2013

We need a simple clear message to both sides that all can get behind.

I like KCIC and wish someone would have a word with Michael Orton from NOPM who has stolen it as his own. It shouldn't be linked to NOPM.

I think another fairly neutral phrase is just "Talk to each other". At the moment Fisher is being very childish and ACL are being silent as to a compromise.

I'd like to see a campaign from the Trust that engages those going to Sixfields, those going to away games and those willing to protest. And Id like it in time for Saturday ideally as its the first time all sides will be in one place in front of Fisher.

shmmeee · Aug 26, 2013

Ashdown1 said:
What's this another rallying call for everyone to take their cash to Sixfields and bring out their banners. Well that's worked before hasn't it as they were grabbed from people by SISU's rent a mob ! In the meantime SISU pocket another £60,000 on the day. Nope that won't work ta !

Read it again.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 26, 2013

Ashdown1 said:
What's this another rallying call for everyone to take their cash to Sixfields and bring out their banners.

Who said that?

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 26, 2013

shmmeee said:
We need a simple clear message to both sides that all can get behind.

I like KCIC and wish someone would have a word with Michael Orton from NOPM who has stolen it as his own. It shouldn't be linked to NOPM.

I think another fairly neutral phrase is just "Talk to each other". At the moment Fisher is being very childish and ACL are being silent as to a compromise.

I'd like to see a campaign from the Trust that engages those going to Sixfields, those going to away games and those willing to protest. And Id like it in time for Saturday ideally as its the first time all sides will be in one place in front of Fisher.

We actually agree on this

Too much confusion, too much re-jigging of messages that means nobody really knows what they're standing for. Agree entirely about KCiC! This was something that united everybody, and now it's been taken away for an agenda that doesn't automatically unite everybody. how daft is that!

And too much desire to polarise as opposed to bring people together under that one simple message.

Instead of criticising, all sides should be trying to suggest potential ways forward. Most will be nonsense, but circles of destructive insults do nobody any favours.

shmmeee · Aug 26, 2013

Deleted member 5849 said:
We actually agree on this

Despite the fundamentalist nature of my personal views, I can be fairly rational about the strategy needed.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 26, 2013

shmmeee said:
Despite the fundamentalist nature of my personal views, I can be fairly rational about the strategy needed.

FWIW this is what's missed often. Better to come up with something pragmatic that unites everybody and gets a message out to more, than stick dogmatically to personal beliefs above all else.

Sticking dogmatically to a position is, after all, one of the biggest complaints against SISU, no?

So better to work with those ultimately on the same side, then work against.

skyblue1523 · Aug 26, 2013

listen to fisher after the match yesterday he wants acl/ccc to get in touch,the ball is now in their court over to you acl/ccc sought it out.Bring the skyblues home offer them the same deal you offered the admin.If sisu accept we'll be back in coventry if they dont accept we know whos to blame for keeping us out.ACL/CCC are in the wrong if they cannot come back with the same offer to club thats my view anyway.

shmmeee · Aug 26, 2013

skyblue1523 said:
listen to fisher after the match yesterday he wants acl/ccc to get in touch,the ball is now in their court over to you acl/ccc sought it out.Bring the skyblues home offer them the same deal you offered the admin.If sisu accept we'll be back in coventry if they dont accept we know whos to blame for keeping us out.ACL/CCC are in the wrong if they cannot come back with the same offer to club thats my view anyway.

Don't you find it a little childish "the balls in their court. They need to call us." FFS I've had this when two friends have fallen out "he should apologise" "no he should" and what you do is not pick sides instead you say to both "come on, be the bigger man" until one gives in.

That statement from Fisher is almost identical to the ones from ACL. The answer to it is "grow the fuck up and pick the phone up"

Nick · Aug 26, 2013

shmmeee said:
Don't you find it a little childish "the balls in their court. They need to call us." FFS I've had this when two friends have fallen out "he should apologise" "no he should" and what you do is not pick sides instead you say to both "come on, be the bigger man" until one gives in.

That statement from Fisher is almost identical to the ones from ACL. The answer to it is "grow the fuck up and pick the phone up"

Exactly, I think it is all posturing and one huge game of poker.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 26, 2013

shmmeee said:
Don't you find it a little childish "the balls in their court. They need to call us." FFS I've had this when two friends have fallen out "he should apologise" "no he should" and what you do is not pick sides instead you say to both "come on, be the bigger man" until one gives in.

That statement from Fisher is almost identical to the ones from ACL. The answer to it is "grow the fuck up and pick the phone up"

I think we should get away from this full stop, and the value judgements. The ball's in both their courts, they both have the power to do something.

And we have the power to tell them to do something, if nothing else.

ccfcway · Aug 26, 2013

The CT should call for a meeting between the two.

Set up a meeting room and publically invite both parties to it.

All of this she said / he said crap. Someone needs to be proactive and get botrh parties together. It should be an organisation in the media and as a result the CT should run with it.

It would also show which party doesnt come to the table

DazzleTommyDazzle · Aug 26, 2013

skyblue1523 said:
listen to fisher after the match yesterday he wants acl/ccc to get in touch,the ball is now in their court over to you acl/ccc sought it out.Bring the skyblues home offer them the same deal you offered the admin.If sisu accept we'll be back in coventry if they dont accept we know whos to blame for keeping us out.ACL/CCC are in the wrong if they cannot come back with the same offer to club thats my view anyway.

I didn't hear this - what did he say?

Last comment I heard from him on this subject was that he wouldn't talk to ACL until "they gave the 10 points back", so it sounds like he's moving position.

Good news all round if he is.

skyblue1523 · Aug 26, 2013

shmmeee said:
Don't you find it a little childish "the balls in their court. They need to call us." FFS I've had this when two friends have fallen out "he should apologise" "no he should" and what you do is not pick sides instead you say to both "come on, be the bigger man" until one gives in.

That statement from Fisher is almost identical to the ones from ACL. The answer to it is "grow the fuck up and pick the phone up"

Both sides need to grow up and agree a deal but if acl/ccc can make an offer to the admin why not make the same offer to the club,IT wont because acl/ccc do not want the skyblues in coventry under sisu ownership

shmmeee · Aug 26, 2013

ccfcway said:
The CT should call for a meeting between the two.

Set up a meeting room and publically invite both parties to it.

All of this she said / he said crap. Someone needs to be proactive and get botrh parties together. It should be an organisation in the media and as a result the CT should run with it.

It would also show which party doesnt come to the table

Noone from either side would agree to discuss commercially confidential information in public and so no actual negotiations could really take place. I'm not sure what help it would be.

Even if we got both sides to agree to the basis of an agreement then go off into a room to work out the fine details both sides would come out pointing the finger at the other and were back to square one.

All we can do is keep pressure on as fans. Hence why a united constructive message is needed.

skyblue1523 · Aug 26, 2013

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
I didn't hear this - what did he say?

Last comment I heard from him on this subject was that he wouldn't talk to ACL until "they gave the 10 points back", so it sounds like he's moving position.

Good news all round if he is.

IT was on sky sports news yesterday he said it after the match

Nick · Aug 26, 2013

shmmeee said:
Noone from either side would agree to discuss commercially confidential information in public and so no actual negotiations could really take place. I'm not sure what help it would be.

Even if we got both sides to agree to the basis of an agreement then go off into a room to work out the fine details both sides would come out pointing the finger at the other and were back to square one.

All we can do is keep pressure on as fans. Hence why a united constructive message is needed.

Exactly, as the march was United and the message was to keep coventry in coventry it was backed. The nopm divides fans so won't work as well.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 26, 2013

shmmeee said:
Even if we got both sides to agree to the basis of an agreement then go off into a room to work out the fine details both sides would come out pointing the finger at the other and were back to square one.

They would. it'd be nice if we could move away from statement wars really.

Less talk, more action could be another phrase.

Ironic that you have to talk to give out the message of less talk, mind you...

GaryPendrysEyes · Aug 26, 2013

'Talk to each other'?? embarrassingly wet tbh

1. This is business. Sisu are the owners and responsible for the well being of the club, the buck stops with them. The ball is always in their court as with any business owner.
2. Joy isnt a hippy and hedge funds are tough self-interested entities, they want the Ricoh and the want it at their (low) price and have been aggressively distressing ACL for months to do just that. Where Sisu are now there isnt a compromise, the Ricoh on the cheap is their only way to make money, and their future may even depend on it
3. The only way out of this is Sisu to sell up and leave and a deal to be done with a new owner.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 26, 2013

There's always more than one way.

shmmeee · Aug 26, 2013

GaryPendrysEyes said:
'Talk to each other'?? embarrassingly wet tbh

1. This is business. Sisu are the owners and responsible for the well being of the club, the buck stops with them. The ball is always in their court as with any business owner.
2. Joy isnt a hippy and hedge funds are tough self-interested entities, they want the Ricoh and the want it at their (low) price and have been aggressively distressing ACL for months to do just that. Where Sisu are now there isnt a compromise, the Ricoh on the cheap is their only way to make money, and their future may even depend on it
3. The only way out of this is Sisu to sell up and leave and a deal to be done with a new owner.

I agree with your analysis, but this isn't about who is right it's about how do we get what we all want (Cov in Cov). Pressure on Sisu to talk would force them to expose their intentions ultimately anyway.

At the moment Fisher can play the blame-ACL game because we've bought into "sides" and it plays into that narrative. If the fans, instead of saying "you're to blame, you need to change" said en masse "I don't give a shit who started it, you're both to blame now sort it out." It removes "It's their job to call us" from the list of excuses they can use. It stops the like of Linell from going pro-Sisu in the name of "balance". It moves the goalposts on Sisu and ACL, if either side refuses to talk (not blames the other for refusing) then we can turn our anger on them, but at the moment both are pointing the finger at the other one.

Tom's Dad · Aug 26, 2013

The most sensible thread seen on here for ages.

Get them all to put their egos to one side, understand concessions are needed on both side, put on some coffee and nibbles and then get them to sit around a table and sort it out.

Does it need an arbitrator to do this? One who is independent and both can trust? Who would such a person be?

Nick · Aug 26, 2013

Tom's Dad said:
The most sensible thread seen on here for ages.

Get them all to put their egos to one side, understand concessions are needed on both side, put on some coffee and nibbles and then get them to sit around a table and sort it out.

Does it need an arbitrator to do this? One who is independent and both can trust? Who would such a person be?

It seems it is hard to find somebody to trust, I would have liked to say somebody from the football league but obviously not...

whiteheadj · Aug 26, 2013

Deleted member 5849 said:
Firstly, what's one of the biggest gripes between SISU and ACL? That they don't talk to each other and find a solution, but ibstead revert to snidely insulting one another through press statements.

We, as fans, what are we doing? Not talking to one another as fellow fans, trying to find constructively common ground where we can all protest whether we go to Sixfields or not.

Instead, we're trying to show who's most responsible for killing the club, which set of fans.

The answer to that is... all of us are responsible, if we decide to go for easy targets.

Want your Hitler analogies? Forget appeasement (although it's worth remembering that was the majority view at the time, and appeasement meant waiting at home passively instead of going out to engage the enemy) it all smacks a bit of using energies to persecute certain sections, holding the people responsible... instead of standing up to paymasters, people in power, leaders.

Just a question,

Do you not think then, if not one ccfc fan had turned up for these first two games that sisu would have to completely reconsider playing at sixfeilds?

Just to inform you, the owners of ccfc have no interest in the football club. They thought they would be able to get the Ricoh relatively cheap if they owned ccfc. That is how they intended in making there money back. But now there tactics have gone wrong they think they can starve the Ricoh and buy it then.

This is proven by the fact that with all the revenue they are missing out on in terms of just tickets, they could have played at the Ricoh payed the 1.2 million a year rent and had cash to spare.

This is why I refuse to pay to watch my team away from coventry. There is no need for it. We could play in coventry and be better off. If they wanted to build a stadium they could have had a five year lease at the Ricoh and built it. But all there trying to do is starve the Ricoh.

Just look how fisher talks, do you think he cares about you having to travel to a shithole of a ground. I very much doubt it.

I like this post and agree the more of us that stick together the better. I don't always agree with both sides of the argument but I've posted some of what I think above. When I became part of the nopm mob (as some of you call it) I looked at both sides of the argument. I do also believe this whole thing was started by previous owners and chairmen.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 26, 2013

whiteheadj said:
Do you not think then, if not one ccfc fan had turned up for these first two games that sisu would have to completely reconsider playing at sixfeilds?

No.

or actually maybe, Yes. In that maybe the club would not be here in existence full stop.

To elaborate, there are many, many reasons not to go and as stated boringly, tediously, infinitely... I am not going.

This is never about the short term revenue for the club though as far as I'm concerned. I personally won't go because, well, it's not like the club is making the whole experience fun for me! (although ironic that the team is actually starting to make it fun, inches me slightly along the line to going but, more to the point, would have probably tipped me to breaking my exile if we were in the Ricoh at present)

I'd rather a set of coherent, non divisive messages were set up that all fans can rally around however, that allow *all* fans to be actively engaged in the process should they wish.

The Bobster · Aug 26, 2013

Fans should unite and turn up at Shrewsbury in their thousands . Prior to kick let fisher and his cronies what we think of them and give massive support to a exciting bunch of kids through the 90 minutes . Shitsu out the only sensible option

wince · Aug 26, 2013

'Talk to each other'?? embarrassingly wet tbh

1. This is business. Sisu are the owners and responsible for the well being of the club, the buck stops with them. The ball is always in their court as with any business owner.
2. Joy isn't a hippy and hedge funds are tough self-interested entities, they want the Ricoh and the want it at their (low) price and have been aggressively distressing ACL for months to do just that. Where Sisu are now there isn't a compromise, the Ricoh on the cheap is their only way to make money, and their future may even depend on it
3. The only way out of this is Sisu to sell up and leave and a deal to be done with a new owner.

Have to agree, the only way for sisu to get ccfc to the top of the cycle (to quote fisher) is to spend millions of pounds , which they are not going to do, people can argue all they like , but sisu stopped paying the rent because it was too high for them, nothing to stop them breaking any deal again in the future , Coventry is full of people who at some time in the past would regularly follow city but now don't, sadly I may soon to become one of them

Bill Glazier · Aug 26, 2013

Good thread - at last a bit more reason. It occurred to me that we don't really know exactly what Sisu want. We know what they don't want, but what is their genuine bottom line requirement to return the club home? We should just ask Tim Fisher directly at every opportunity. We all know a new stadium will never be built, so just what is it Sisu honestly want?

longjohnskyblue · Aug 26, 2013

Sadly anyone who believes sisu have any intention of compromise clearly hasn't done any real research into them! If they had, they would know that sisu have an awful reputation even in the financial industry ( and that is saying something!). They have a proven history of brinkmanship, scare tactics, and bullying - this is all standard practice for them. They are well known for trying to circumvent admin procedures (time and time again they try and make themselves preferrential creditors despite often being a minority creditor!).Why else do you think sisu set up Otium and the myriad of other umbrella companies that may well lurk in the mud still? They make contingencies for court cases and deals from day one!

When you have a judge in open court openly questioning their truthfulness, it is hardly surprising that ccfc are in the predicament they are in right now! So to put even 1% of the blame on anyone else but sisum, is just plain naive. Their plan from day one was to get the arena as cheaply as possible - when ACL stood firm, sisu went hostile!

So whilst it sounds good in soundbite to "get the 2 parties together" it simply will not work - ever. Sisu haven't budged from their initial positon 1 inch - even after everything that has gone on! They said average rent was £170k (where they got these figures from is anyone's guess) - they were offered £150k. Then they moved the goalposts! This was never about the rent- it was getting the arena on the cheap.

If it were about the F&B then why didn't they offer to buy a licence for this concession? WHY didn't they buy the arena straight away if it was so integral to the profitability of the club? The reality is the F&B is a relatively trivial amount, the big bucks comes in getting the club in the Prem. That was what they bought into under ranson. It is no coincidence that city struggled to get any decent players in once ranson left! They reverted to type.

There is only one way forward - and that is sisu going. Saying get city back first then worry about the other stuff later - that kind of thinking got sisu at the reins in the first place! You cannot isolate the 2 problems, however much people would like. Once sisu are gone the club will be brought back to the city. It cannot and will not whilst sisu are in charge (and I suspect they know it!). Anything else is just wishful thinking

thaiskyblue · Aug 26, 2013

longjohnskyblue said:
Sadly anyone who believes sisu have any intention of compromise clearly hasn't done any real research into them! If they had, they would know that sisu have an awful reputation even in the financial industry ( and that is saying something!). They have a proven history of brinkmanship, scare tactics, and bullying - this is all standard practice for them. They are well known for trying to circumvent admin procedures (time and time again they try and make themselves preferrential creditors despite often being a minority creditor!).Why else do you think sisu set up Otium and the myriad of other umbrella companies that may well lurk in the mud still? They make contingencies for court cases and deals from day one!
well said the beat post i have ever read on here, totally agree, sisu are just parasites sucking our beloved club dry, they don't care one bit.

When you have a judge in open court openly questioning their truthfulness, it is hardly surprising that ccfc are in the predicament they are in right now! So to put even 1% of the blame on anyone else but sisum, is just plain naive. Their plan from day one was to get the arena as cheaply as possible - when ACL stood firm, sisu went hostile!

So whilst it sounds good in soundbite to "get the 2 parties together" it simply will not work - ever. Sisu haven't budged from their initial positon 1 inch - even after everything that has gone on! They said average rent was £170k (where they got these figures from is anyone's guess) - they were offered £150k. Then they moved the goalposts! This was never about the rent- it was getting the arena on the cheap.

If it were about the F&B then why didn't they offer to buy a licence for this concession? WHY didn't they buy the arena straight away if it was so integral to the profitability of the club? The reality is the F&B is a relatively trivial amount, the big bucks comes in getting the club in the Prem. That was what they bought into under ranson. It is no coincidence that city struggled to get any decent players in once ranson left! They reverted to type.

There is only one way forward - and that is sisu going. Saying get city back first then worry about the other stuff later - that kind of thinking got sisu at the reins in the first place! You cannot isolate the 2 problems, however much people would like. Once sisu are gone the club will be brought back to the city. It cannot and will not whilst sisu are in charge (and I suspect they know it!). Anything else is just wishful thinking

skyblue1523 · Aug 26, 2013

they have not been offered £150,000 rent deal this is where it gets confused admin was offered the rent deal.SO sisu have not turned it down it wasn't offered to them to accept i think they would accept it if offered

stupot07 · Aug 26, 2013

longjohnskyblue said:
The reality is the F&B is a relatively trivial amount, the big bucks comes in getting the club in the Prem. That was what they bought into under ranson.

Most teams never get to play in the premier league. Clubs shouldn't use the possibility of one day making it to the PL as a basis for their short, medium or long term financial plans because the probability of making it there is slim.

Steve.B50 · Aug 26, 2013

longjohnskyblue said:
Sadly anyone who believes sisu have any intention of compromise clearly hasn't done any real research into them! If they had, they would know that sisu have an awful reputation even in the financial industry ( and that is saying something!). They have a proven history of brinkmanship, scare tactics, and bullying - this is all standard practice for them. They are well known for trying to circumvent admin procedures (time and time again they try and make themselves preferrential creditors despite often being a minority creditor!).Why else do you think sisu set up Otium and the myriad of other umbrella companies that may well lurk in the mud still? They make contingencies for court cases and deals from day one!

When you have a judge in open court openly questioning their truthfulness, it is hardly surprising that ccfc are in the predicament they are in right now! So to put even 1% of the blame on anyone else but sisum, is just plain naive. Their plan from day one was to get the arena as cheaply as possible - when ACL stood firm, sisu went hostile!

So whilst it sounds good in soundbite to "get the 2 parties together" it simply will not work - ever. Sisu haven't budged from their initial positon 1 inch - even after everything that has gone on! They said average rent was £170k (where they got these figures from is anyone's guess) - they were offered £150k. Then they moved the goalposts! This was never about the rent- it was getting the arena on the cheap.

If it were about the F&B then why didn't they offer to buy a licence for this concession? WHY didn't they buy the arena straight away if it was so integral to the profitability of the club? The reality is the F&B is a relatively trivial amount, the big bucks comes in getting the club in the Prem. That was what they bought into under ranson. It is no coincidence that city struggled to get any decent players in once ranson left! They reverted to type.

There is only one way forward - and that is sisu going. Saying get city back first then worry about the other stuff later - that kind of thinking got sisu at the reins in the first place! You cannot isolate the 2 problems, however much people would like. Once sisu are gone the club will be brought back to the city. It cannot and will not whilst sisu are in charge (and I suspect they know it!). Anything else is just wishful thinking

A decent post, this one is worth reading.

chiefdave · Aug 26, 2013

skyblue1523 said:
they have not been offered £150,000 rent deal this is where it gets confused admin was offered the rent deal.SO sisu have not turned it down it wasn't offered to them to accept i think they would accept it if offered

So why is Fisher not all over the radio and telegraph telling ACL to offer the 150K deal to Otium and they'll take it? When he was on CWR and was questioned on the offer he tried playing the 'it was offered to the administrator card' but when pushed to say if they would accept the same deal offered to them he refused to answer, if you wanted that deal you'd be making it clear as you'd then have the fans putting pressure on ACL.

Right, let's get all this out the way (1 Viewer)

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